The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

[St. SteVen]

Excerpt from the OP

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Excerpt from the OP.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

]

 

[Arthur81]

Do we?
Who told us that?

Steven, I cannot square the idea of universal salvation when the scriptures so clearly state the following:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:31-34, 46 NRSV) The Greek behind both English words "eternal" is the same, aionios.

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:10, 15 NRSV)

"...in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," (2Thess 1:8-9 NRSV)

 

[Bob Estey]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—" 2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

The Lord is patient (longsuffering) toward us. His patience (longsuffering) is salvation.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

The will of God is not subordinate to the will of mankind because God knows what is best for us.

 

[Arthur81]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—" 2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

The Lord is patient (longsuffering) toward us. His patience (longsuffering) is salvation.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

I've never heard anyone refer to God as "a gentleman", so I'll not address that idea. But, I see a larger context here, Phil. 2:5-11 and in this passage is the vast difference in the humiliation of the Son of God, versus the exaltation of the Son of God.

The Humiliation, vs 5-8
Php 2:5 NRSVue Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.

The Exaltation, vs 9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him even more highly and gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In the humiliation he became like a slave, as a human, humbled to the point of death.

In the exaltation His name is above every other name; at his power every knee "bends" in subjection, and every tongue is forced to confess or admit, that Jesus Christ is the Lord of ALL, having "All authority or power in heaven and on earth has been given to me" Matt. 28:18

Devils and demons recognize that Jesus is the Son of God having power. As in James, even the devils "believe" but it is not a saving faith.

"And the unclean spirits, whensoever they beheld him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God." (Mark 3:11 ERV)

"And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many devils were entered into him. And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss." (Luke 8:30-31 ERV)

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and shudder." (Jas 2:19 ERV)

I can see no way that Phil. 2:10-11 can be seen as teaching a universal salvation and present a contradiction to verses that so clearly state and eternal punishment for some.

 

[amadeus]

The will of God is not subordinate to the will of mankind because God knows what is best for us.

Indeed, without God directing us where are we?

Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

 

[Wick Stick]

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

Never? Boy oh boy, that is NOT how I define a gentleman.

I fancy myself a gentleman, at least where my wife and family are concerned. And here is how that goes. I rarely tell my wife what to do. I ask, politely, or suggest. I imply that she would be virtuous to act rightly. I will cajole, and perhaps even beg her to reconsider if she is re-calcitrant.

If the matter is a small one and my wife or child is making a mistake, I will inform them of the mistake, and allow them to make the error. This is how we learn.

But in large matters, and particularly in matters of safety, ultimately, if they will not go of their own volition, I will put them over my shoulder and carry them where they need to go.

A gentleman is still a man. Daddy is entitled to the last word in any disagreement. He simply has the courtesy not to exercise that right in every argument. He does not beat everyone over the head with it to become a tyrant.

That's a gentleman.

 

[Jericho]

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Is God a gentleman? He can be, but that's only one aspect of His character. God is also a judge, and judges don't make rulings based on what is gentlemanly but on what is just and right. When it comes to free will, there are two things to keep in mind: 1) With free will come consequences; and 2) There's no such thing as absolute free will. Our wills will never supersede God's sovereign will. We are, however, given a great deal of autonomy and the choice to follow Him or not. Some will acknowledge that Christ is Lord willingly, and some will do it begrudgingly. Either way, there will be an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty.

 

[St. SteVen]

Steven, I cannot square the idea of universal salvation when the scriptures so clearly state the following:

What does that view say about the character of God?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

The will of God is not subordinate to the will of mankind because God knows what is best for us.

Agree. That being the case, why would he let anyone send themselves to hell by their own choice?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

can be seen as teaching a universal salvation and present a contradiction to verses that so clearly state and eternal punishment for some.

Here's my view.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Some will acknowledge that Christ is Lord willingly, and some will do it begrudgingly. Either way, there will be an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty.

Where's the support for "begrudgingly"?

]

 

[Arthur81]

What does that view say about the character of God?

]

I will not presume to judge the righteousness of God Almighty. I just accept what his word states as I study it to the best of my ability with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, who inspired it.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

These are indeed but the outskirts of his ways; and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?” (Job 26:14, NRSV)

He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Eccl 3:11, NRSV)

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:33-34, NRSV)

O LORD, God of Israel, you are just, but we have escaped as a remnant, as is now the case. Here we are before you in our guilt, though no one can face you because of this.” (Ezra 9:15, NRSV)

the fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever; the ordinances of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. (Ps 19:9, NRSV)

They shall celebrate the fame of your abundant goodness, and shall sing aloud of your righteousness. (Ps 145:7, NRSV)

And I heard the altar respond, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, your judgments are true and just!” (Rev 16:7, NRSV)

I'm content to abide by the following words of the LORD:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29 NRSV)

 

[St. SteVen]

I will not presume to judge the righteousness of God Almighty. I just accept what his word states as I study it to the best of my ability with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, who inspired it.

I stopped reading your post at this point.

Did you hope to end the discussion by playing the "God card"?

If the Holy Spirit has illuminated you, who gives a rip what I have to say?

]

 

[Bob Estey]

Agree. That being the case, why would he let anyone send themselves to hell by their own choice?

]

It's either that or deprive us of a free will.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's either that or deprive us of a free will.

Deprive?
Are you sure you want a free will? What good does it do?

]

 

[Arthur81]

I stopped reading your post at this point.

Did you hope to end the discussion by playing the "God card"?

If the Holy Spirit has illuminated you, who gives a rip what I have to say?

Steven, I only quoted God's word. Is that "playing the God card?"

I find your reasoning totally humanistic, not based on Scripture. All mankind died in Adam, we were all dead in our sins, therefore:

God could save all if he willed.
God could save NONE if he willed.
God could save some of his choice and that does not one single person an injustice!

Every person alive was deserving of death and it is only by God's grace that his elect are saved.

 

[Beebster]

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Yes, according to most of Christianity.

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Good for you and God bless you.

Not even Jesus had free will.

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Steven, I only quoted God's word. Is that "playing the God card?"

No, I quoted the problem. Where I stopped reading.

Arthur81 said:
I will not presume to judge the righteousness of God Almighty. I just accept what his word states as I study it to the best of my ability with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, who inspired it.

I find your reasoning totally humanistic, not based on Scripture. All mankind died in Adam, we were all dead in our sins, therefore:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22 NIV

God could save all if he willed.
God could save NONE if he willed.
God could save some of his choice and that does not one single person an injustice!

Based on reputation we can assess what someone will likely do.
You are only focusing on what is possible with no thought to the damage it would do. IMHO

- "God could save all if he willed." God DOES will to save ALL of humankind. So he should.
- "God could save NONE if he willed." Fortunately, God DOESN'T will that. So he won't.
- "God could save some of his choice and that does not one single person an injustice!" That would be the ultimate injustice.

What if God had willed not to save you? And there was nothing you could do to change his will?

Every person alive was deserving of death and it is only by God's grace that his elect are saved.

What if we flip the script on that idea. Tell me which one sounds MORE like the God we know and love.

Every person alive is deserving of life and it is only God's grace that will make this happen. His mercy is unfailing.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Not even Jesus had free will.

Are you sure?

Luke 22:42 NIV
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

]