The Truth About The Rapture
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As you probably noticed in the post [by Martin W.] which followed your quoted post, Rapturist do claim that the 'rapture' is the return of Christ. Now, I realize that the Rapture theory has many forms. I have heard from one whack-job Rapturist that Christ returns twice. Notwithstanding the many spin-offs of the rapture theory, it has been my experience that the majority of Rapturists do claim it is the one and only return of Christ.
Hence, my claim that 2 Thes. 2:2-4 disproves rapture theory was premised upon my understanding that Rapturists believe the rapture to be the return of Christ -- ahead of Satan's return.
Hey! I know several people who believe in the Rapture. I believe that they hold to the fact that when Jesus comes back to grab his followers in the 'rapture' that it's not a "touchdown" event!!!
You know how the Bible says that when Jesus comes back to earth, that His feet will set down on the Mount of Olives, where He ascended into heaven? Well I think that's how they get around this. Jesus comes back, but not really, only half way. ;)
Now, I really have nothing against people who believe this; as I said, I know a few people who do, and trust me, they are wonderful, genuine Christians. But for myself, I just can't see the bible supporting the 'Rapture'.
Vincent
New Member
Ya, I've heard that too. That he comes back to collect his saints (rapture) but doesn't come all the way down to earth. So they still claim he only comes back once, but before he comes back there is a rapture event for the saints to escape the bad times. sigh. sounds nice, doesn't it?
Saved in Fiery Trial
[sup]19[/sup] Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the expression on his face changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. He spoke and commanded that they heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated. [sup]20[/sup] And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace. [sup]21[/sup] Then these men were bound in their coats, their trousers, their turbans, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. [sup]22[/sup] Therefore, because the king’s command was urgent, and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. [sup]23[/sup] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
[sup]24[/sup] Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
[sup]25[/sup] “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”[sup][a][/sup]
Nebuchadnezzar Praises God
[sup]26[/sup] Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, “Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here.” Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire. [sup]27[/sup] And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king’s counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.
[sup]28[/sup] Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel[sup][b][/sup] and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god except their own God! [sup]29[/sup] Therefore I make a decree that any people, nation, or language which speaks anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made an ash heap; because there is no other God who can deliver like this.”
[sup]30[/sup] Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego in the province of Babylon.
[sup]19[/sup] Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the expression on his face changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. He spoke and commanded that they heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated. [sup]20[/sup] And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace. [sup]21[/sup] Then these men were bound in their coats, their trousers, their turbans, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. [sup]22[/sup] Therefore, because the king’s command was urgent, and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. [sup]23[/sup] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
[sup]24[/sup] Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
[sup]25[/sup] “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”[sup][a][/sup]
Nebuchadnezzar Praises God
[sup]26[/sup] Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, “Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here.” Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire. [sup]27[/sup] And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king’s counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.
[sup]28[/sup] Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel[sup][b][/sup] and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god except their own God! [sup]29[/sup] Therefore I make a decree that any people, nation, or language which speaks anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made an ash heap; because there is no other God who can deliver like this.”
[sup]30[/sup] Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego in the province of Babylon.
Yes
That is the way I tend to see it also.
I think sometimes we forget there are several different events and probably at different times.
I always recall Jesus said "times and dates" .... not .... "time and date"
I think (in my words) .... Jesus comes for his church .... with his church .... stands on Mount Zion ..... I feel they do not all happen at one moment. They are separate events. My thoughts anyway.
Your words .... not a "touchdown" event!!! .... are very appropriate
Thanks
Martin
Does Christ reign on earth [terra firma] or in the atmosphere with the clouds?? If you answered 'earth', you are correct. Hence, if you believe the word 'air' to mean 'atmosphere'/'sky', you have a dilemma -
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If Christ is going to reign on earth, then we cannot forever be with Christ in the 'atmosphere'/'sky'.
The word 'air' means 'breath of life body' -- not 'atmosphere'/'sky'.
The next problem with your conclusion is whether 'living Christians' are the only ones translated. This is also answered in scripture.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christ returns at one of the trumpets of God. Which one or the seven trumpets does Christ return??
Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Christ returns on the seventh/last/final trumpet. The Lord's reign commences on earth at this time. What happens to non-Christians at the return of Christ??
1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is very clear. ALL are translated -- not just "living Christians".1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Christians are not in the grave [nor is anyone else].
Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Upon death, our 'breath of life bodies' all return to God. They are not in a hole in the ground as you claim. Your belief is simply unbiblical!!
Well, I just did argue -- and, I proved you in error.
It is you that need to get over your false beliefs!
I think we'd make an assumption to assume that these guys are humans.
Who knows what "two witnesses" refers to?
Obviously Elijah and Enoch were special circumstances as well. The two witnesses may be as well. My comments were for everyone else.
I'd honestly consider that to have more validity because Christ will have to bring all the people he raptures back when heaven is merged with the new earth.
This is exactly why I think the two coming has more validity.
Once to rapture.
Second time to bring everyone back.
Yes, it's crazy because I don't think you could ever prove it, but IMO, there'd be less logical issues with this way.
Rapture theory seems to ignore that earth is the final destination.
Disagree because in Revelation 20:4 we see the beheaded's souls "come to life" to reign with Christ.
An issue also exists before your timeframe too in Revelation 7 where it clearly states those "coming out of the tribulation" are before the throne, already. Maybe these are those that were dead, I dunno. I'm just saying your argument has some holes in it.
Don't get me wrong I agree there won't be a rapture but I have seen NOT ONE person, EVER, provide an end-times timeline that makes sense (I don't even have my own). Yours doesn't for those reasons and that's just what came to mind right away.
These scriptures set the time for the one and only return of Christ. There are 7 vials of God's wrath. The first 4 vials are intended for those proclaiming to be Christians, but, who have taken the mark of the beast [believe in rapture]. Vial 5 is the release of the fallen angels to rule the world [10 kings - Rev. 17:12]. Vial 6 is the unveiling of Satan as the fake Christ. Vial 7 is the return of the true Christ and the destruction of all of God's enemies, bringing in the Lord's Day.
First, it is not 'clouds' as those accummulation of vapor that we see in the sky. Yes -- it is the same event as signified by "the trump of God' in verse 16. This is the 7th trumpet.
If you think that the Lord first comes for the so-called 'church' separately, then you run into Biblical contradictions -
1. It would take two trumpets from God [v. 16] as the 7th trumpet ends this flesh dispensation of time. If you review the other 6 trumpets, none of them identify a prior return of Christ.
2. Christ's 'forever' reign is on earth [terra firma] -- not in the atmosphere/sky.
3. Deception. Satan will deceive the whole world, except God's elect. If 'Christians' are translated first, then those left behind would never be deceived by Satan. Hence, in order for the world deception to take place, Satan has to come first prior to the translation of Christians. Besides, it is Christians that are the target of Satan's deception -- non-Christians are not saved at this time.
4. Fiery darts. God's elect are predestined to take on the fiery darts of Satan [Eph. 6:16]. Can't do that if they are already translated and gone.
5. Delivered up to Satan's councils. The elect are delivered up [by rapturists] to Satan. Can't be delivered up if they are already translated and gone.
You have a severe burden to overcome as you need to invent two additonal trumpets from God for the three returns of Christ.
There is no misunderstanding in the Word of God. You rapturists simply do not want to go by the Word of God and, instead, want to believe in the lie of rapture because you are all too cowardly to think that you will have to be here to face Satan's reign on earth.
God makes it very clear. Those rapturists, alive at the time and who, holding true to form, worship Satan, do not make the first resurrection.
Yeah, have heard most all of the rapture variations. The one thing that they all have in common is the separate taking of the church to spare them some endtime event.
Well, I am sure that they are decent people. When they deliver up God's elect to death [Satan], they think that they are doing the right thing. However, rapturists have all taken the mark of the beast already. So, you should be against them -- for their own good. Rapturists, hold true to form in the endtime, all miss the first resurrection. Many of them, having been taught the Truth and rejected it for the lie of rapture, will end up in the Lake of Fire as they tossed away their salvation.
Watchman it seems you are terribly hostile and if "You don't believe my way, hell for you" is present in every post I've ever read of yours.
There are certain core Christ values that this rings true with but rapture theory and end times beliefs is not one of them.
There are certain core Christ values that this rings true with but rapture theory and end times beliefs is not one of them.
There is no rapture in the Word of God. Hence, you already have a paradox as you have assumed there is a separate rapture of the church when none is expressly stated in the Word.
See post to Martin W. above. In addition, if you look at the parable of the tares in the field [Mat. 13:24-30, 37-43], the tares are harvested with the wheat. The wheat is not first harested, while leaving the tares behind.
Rapturists are very confused with the words 'cloud' and 'air'. As addressed in a post above, 'air' is the 'breath of life body'. There is another Greek word for 'atmosphere'/'sky'. The word 'cloud' in Greek is simply an accumulation of particles. In 1 Thes. 4:17, 'clouds' are all the saints that Christ brings with him. So, God's elect, when translated into their 'breath of life body' take their rightful place among the saints [already died in the flesh -- v. 13-14]
Rev. 20:4 is describing the Lord's Day, which takes place after this flesh dispensation of time. The 7th/last/final trump is a flesh dispensation of time event. The term 'living' is clarified in v. 5-7 -
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
The reason that they are 'living' is that they passed the test in the flesh dispensation of time. The rest are labeled 'dead' because their souls remain mortal during the Lord's Day because they either had proper opportunity for salvation and failed [lake of fire bound], never had a fair opportunity to know Christ in the flesh, innocently took the mark of the beast and worshipped Satan, or had the spirit of slumber placed upon them in the flesh. Satan is allowed to hang around throughout the Lord's Day because he is allowed to tempt those who are taught during the Lord's Day.
There are no holes in my argument. The elders who see all the newcomers that come out of the tribulation [endtime] are part of the Lord's Day reign of Christ -- thereafter the 7th trumpet.
Well, I can't explain your inability to see it. It is not that difficult to know.
Since you [admittedly] don't know the endtime chronology of events and Bible Truth associated therewith, you are ill-positioned to offer any meaningful commentary as to whether someone is "hostile" or simply informing folks as to what the Word of God states they are in for because of their rapture beliefs.
As usual, you are in error. Taking the mark of the beast is serious business to God and Christ.
Yeah, see, that where I have to pull up on the 'rapture' round about. I don't believe that the Bible teaches that Christians will escape pain. When have we ever?? How many martyred Christians have there been, are suffering right now, that bear witness to this?? And just say that it all pans out like they think...they get sucked out of here just before everything becoming horrifying. They still think that some will become Christians after that....so how is that fair? I know some say that is the price for not believing before the 'rapture', but I just think that is so very contrary to God.
I'm afraid that I do have to disagree with you on the whole 'those who do believe in the rapture will burn in hell' thing. I'm not trying to get into an argument with you about it, but truly, the people I know who believe this; while mistaken (I believe) they have their salvation. They love Jesus so very much, have lived wonderful godly lives.
I mean, so many people over the years have had wacky ideas, been mistaken in things, but that doesn't automatically disqualify them for grace!
I think people who believe in the Rapture could be in for a rude shock, but really...all they're longing for is to see their Savior....and lets face it....we all should! I know I do... I just think things are going to get worse before they get better!
I never said I believed that.
I'm done arguing with you. You're quick to speak and slow to listen.
Vincent
New Member
I have an end times timeline that makes sense.
Seals
5th seal, the martyrs are told to wait a little while longer because more will be killed as they have been
6th seal, the martyrs are resurrected (the great multitude) This is the first resurrection.
7th seal, there is silence in heaven. I believe this represents the millennium while Satan is in prison. This is the Sabbath millennium, the period of rest.
Trumpets
5th trumpet. Angel of the Abyss comes out of the Abyss. This is probably Satan being released from his prison.
7th trumpet. The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord. This doesn't happen until after the millennium. It's time for God's wrath. Angel with a sharp sickle gathers grapes of wrath for winepress outside the city. The grapes are outside the city of Jerusalem because Satan has gathered together the armies of the world to surround the camp of God's people.
Bowls
6th bowl of wrath, Jesus says "I come like a thief". We know he doesn't come until after the millennium, so this bowl must be poured out after the millennium. Kings of the world gather at Armageddon. This is when Satan gathers the kings of the world after the millennium to surround the camp of God's people.
7th bowl of wrath. God says "It is done!". Would it really be done, if Satan is to be released again a thousand years later? Or would it be done, when it's all truly done? At the end of the age. After the millennium, when Satan is destroyed, Jesus kingdom is established, everything is renewed. That is the time that everything is done. Not before the millennium, but after.
When Jesus comes back with his saints, he is bringing with him the 6th seal multitude. The resurrected martyrs. They reigned with him for a thousand years. The time of great distress that Jesus warned about is probably the time that Satan surrounds the camp of God's people after he is released from his thousand year prison. His attack on Jerusalem is described in Zechariah 14, which then also describes Jesus' return and the new Jerusalem.
So in summary:
There is no rapture.
The first resurrection is the martyrs and this marks the start of the millennium
After the millennium Satan attacks Jerusalem (this is the time of great distress)
Jesus returns
Everybody else is resurrected
Ba-da-bing Ba-da-boom!
Very good, Vincent, you've taken a highly Biblical approach in my opinion.
Only question, are you equating the harvest of the earth with the resurrection of the church? I just don't see exactly where you think that happens.
But other than that I don't have any immediate objections to your timing- it makes sense.
Only question, are you equating the harvest of the earth with the resurrection of the church? I just don't see exactly where you think that happens.
But other than that I don't have any immediate objections to your timing- it makes sense.
Per Zechariah 14, when Christ returns His feet LITERALLY "stand" (Hebrew 'amad') upon the Mount of Olives, a great valley running east to west is formed there with half the mountain moved to the north, and the other half to the south, and then those who wait for Him flee to that valley (siezed to that valley), in that order.
And I disagree with that.
Why I consider Vincent's view to be highly accurate is because he didn't link texts that weren't linked by the Word itself. It's purely Revelation.
You are linking Zechariah 14 to this which is a human assumption on your part and not linked by the Word itself.
Satan was sentenced to perish in the first age. So, why did not God destroy Satan by sending him to the Lake of Fire in the first age [rhetorically asked]?? Logic dictates that there has to be a reason for God to keep Satan around in this second age. That reason is made evident in Rev. 20:7-8. Even after this flesh dispensation of time, Satan is not destroyed, but is allowed to live through the end of the Lord's Day. God has a purpose for Satan to fulfill both at the end of the Lord's Day as well as the end of this flesh dispensation of time. That purpose is to 'deceive' the nations. The target audience for Satan's deception in this flesh dispensation of time are Christians, as all non-Christians in the flesh are among the unsaved already. If Christians are raptured away, there is no target audience for Satan's deception.
The majority of the 1/3, who fell with Satan in the first age, are alive at the end of this flesh dispensation of time. The 1/3 are those that call themselves as 'Christians' today.
You have a right to be wrong. My comments regarding endtime rapturists have always been qualified by the phrase "holding true to form". Hopefully, many will repent of their false beliefs.
Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
You see here -- rapturists will have lived a good Christian life, while seeking the salvation of the Lord through His shed blood. But, after they were deceived and ended up worshipping the imposter Christ [Satan], we see Christ's reaction -
Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The word 'never' means 'not at any time'. Hence, Christ does not know them in the Lord's Day or the third age too.
Paul teaches the same thing -
2Th 2:12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Whereas, you don't think that rapturists will burn in the Lake of Fire, the Bible states otherwise.
I did not say you believed rapture -- just pointed out that you have a paradox in the quoted statement.
Glad to see that you are done arguing.
:blink: I'm sorry. I'm not sure If I'm misunderstanding you here. I call myself a Christian....are you suggesting that all Christians, myself included, are actually Satan's demons? Or are you suggesting that Christians who believe in the Rapture are demons? Because both are horribly wrong, and terribly un-Christ like. Not to mention totally unbiblical. I'm very much hoping that I've just misunderstood you!
Vincent
New Member
The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown. Then the harvest of the grapes happens just after the seventh trumpet is blown. We know this because it represents the pouring out of God's seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls.
When the seventh trumpet is blown it signals the beginning of the end. This is when God's kingdom begins (Rev 11:15,17) and also his wrath begins (Rev 11:18) and the judging begins (Rev 11:18).
Revelation 10:6-7 "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished".
Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.
1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
Notice when the grapes of wrath are gathered, they are "trampled in the winepress outside the city". When the beast and his armies are defeated by Jesus (after Satan had been released from his prison) they had "surrounded the city". In this description in Revelation 20:7-10, it is explained that fire comes down from heaven and devours them. This fire is the sharp sickle that harvests the grapes of wrath.
Notice also in the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress that it relates the depth of the blood to "horses bridles". The horses represent an army. Clearly when the grapes are trampled outside the city it is an army surrounding the city, as depicted in Revelation 20:7-10.