The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.

[IndianaRob]

Then if the great tribulation took place at Christs death then that is when the great multitude which no man could number came out of that tribulation.


Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.


Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



Here a little,there a little

They were the Old Testament saints raised with Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

Even if that is true that still misses the point. It still cannot explain these--and some shall awake to shame and everlasting contempt. Is that portion missing from your translation? What part are you failing to grasp here? In order for Daniel 12:2 to be involving what Matthew 27 is involving, Matthew 27 has to be involving what Daniel 12:2 is involving. Matthew 27 is not involving anyone waking to shame and everlasting contempt, but Daniel 12:2 is. Not to mention, Mathew 27 also has to be involving what Daniel 12:1 is involving. And clearly it isn't.

Show me where the gospels tell about God coming down from heaven to avenge the murder of his son?

Exactly it’s not there, it’s not recorded there it’s recorded in the Psalms.

 

[tailgator]

They were the Old Testament saints raised with Christ.

The great multitude which comes out of all nations are old testament saints?
Really?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


And you believe they were all saved out of the great tribulation which you say was in 33 AD?

 

[IndianaRob]

The great multitude which comes out of all nations are old testament saints?
Really?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


And you believe they were all saved out of the great tribulation which you say was in 30 AD?

Yes. The Old Testament church was made up of more than just the Jews.

I believe that verse is talking about the tribulation associated with life on earth.

I could be wrong and those could be those who’s sins were forgiven when Christ died but I don’t think that is the case because “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat “ sounds more like they are in heaven where God is.

 

[Marty fox]

If this is tr

The 1000 years does not start till after the time,times and a half .It is after the beast is destroyed in revelation 19 that the devil is locked up and the kingdom given to the resurrected saints in revelation 20.

If this is true then who do the saints reign over if every person is killed in chapter 19?

I will answer your first long post to me later I’m in and out today

 

[tailgator]

Yes. The Old Testament church was made up of more than just the Jews.

I believe that verse is talking about the tribulation associated with life on earth.

I could be wrong and those could be those who’s sins were forgiven when Christ died but I don’t think that is the case because “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat “ sounds more like they are in heaven where God is.

I was unaware there was a great multitude which no man could number from all nations who were saved before the gospel was preached to all nations.


Revelation ,7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Who was it that was sent to all nations and made a church of all nations before Christ died?

 

[IndianaRob]

I was unaware there was a great multitude which no man could number from all nations who were saved before the gospel was preached to all nations.


Revelation ,7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Who was it that was sent to all nations and made a church of all nations before Christ died?

The gospel has always been preached. Who preached to Ruth the Moabitis? I don’t know but she was a believer in Christ.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It is what you said see below

Also Amils will tell you Satan is bound during this time, times, and a half but the words of God prove this to be false.

Notice Satan ( the Serpent) is chasing after God’s people (the woman) during this time, times, and a half trying to carry her away.

How did you get 3 1/2 years from what I said in the OP? This is what you suggested I said in the OP….

Marty fox said:
“The OP states that amils believe satan is bound during the 3 1/2 years”(end quote)

I did not mention 3 1/2 years in my OP. We know by scripture in Rev. 20 that Satan is bound for a thousand years, but that thousand years is not during the time, times, and a half a time.

 

[tailgator]

The gospel has always been preached. Who preached to Ruth the Moabitis? I don’t know but she was a believer in Christ.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


You don't know who went out to preach to all nations?

You need me to quote from.the bible who was sent to preach to all nations ?

 

[IndianaRob]

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


You don't know who went out to preach to all nations?

You need me to quote from.the bible who was sent to preach to all nations ?

I probably don’t believe anything that you believe so no you don’t need to quote anything.

 

[Davidpt]

And you believe they were all saved out of the great tribulation which you say was in 33 AD?[/B]

To somewhat add to that. Why is it that some of us are able to be logical about these things,, but somehow we are the ones that are wrong, not the ones being illogical instead?

 

[Marty fox]

How did you get 3 1/2 years from what I said in the OP? This is what you suggested I said in the OP….

Marty fox said:
“The OP states that amils believe satan is bound during the 3 1/2 years”(end quote)

I did not mention 3 1/2 years in my OP. We know by scripture in Rev. 20 that Satan is bound for a thousand years, but that thousand years is not during the time, times, and a half a time.

Because time times and 1/2 a time is 3 1/2 years

I was just making it easier to type

 

[Davidpt]

Show me where the gospels tell about God coming down from heaven to avenge the murder of his son?

Exactly it’s not there, it’s not recorded there it’s recorded in the Psalms.

Does that Psalms also explain the ones meant in Daniel 12:2 that awake to shame and everlasting contempt? When are you going to produce the Scripture that proves that, that after Christ rose, many also rose from the dead unto shame and everlasting contempt? I won't hold my breath awaiting such Scripture though, since there is no such Scripture, not even in Psalms somewhere.

 

[tailgator]

To somewhat add to that. Why is it that some of us are able to be logical about these things,, but somehow we are the ones that are wrong, not the ones being illogical instead?

He said he doesn't know who was sent to all nations to preach and is not even interested in knowing who is.That says a lot.
Maybe it's because they don't want to know.

Logic is a good companion though.Things make sense when it's used .


Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[Marty fox]

You need to confirm scripture with scripture, as they all agree.

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “rise first”: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”


Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”

The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….


Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until “the day”that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in “the day”when the Son of man is revealed.”


Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed”

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…


Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the end of our world. There is no resurrection of the dead in Christ mentioned in Daniel the ones dead Christ died after the the first advent.

You stoped in John 11 too soon

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Things in the dead changed at the cross

Jesus is mentioned coming in the New Testament but the ancient of days the Father is mentioned coming in Daniel. Daniel rose at the ending of the old covenant age he is one of the ones mentioned in Matthew 27 why would he not be?

Mathew 27
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people

Paul taught that while we are alive on earth we are spiritually raised with Christ are also reigning in life and seated with Christ in heaven. Below is the proof that revelation 20:4 is a current reality for us on earth and in heaven.

Colossians 3
1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Romans 5
17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[CTK]

The same exact thing Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12:2 happened at the cross.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

In both passages many that slept in the dust arose. How is one not talking about the other?

This is how I interpret these verses in Daniel...... for what it is worth.

Daniel 7:4-8;

4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. (Babylon)

5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’ (Medes-Persia)

6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. (Greece)

7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, (pagan Rome) and it had ten horns. (???????) 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, (papacy / pope) coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns (?????) were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words (papacy / pope).

Daniel 7:11-12;

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; (little horn or papacy) I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame (pagan Rome). 12As for the rest of the beasts, (Babylon, Medes- Persia and Greece) they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The only people that will be persecuted in Israel for that time,times and a half are people who know God. Not the Jews who forsake the holy covenant.
The only people in the land of Israel who know God are in Christ

This is when the saints are persecuted and are killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God

No, the 1/3 who repent (The Woman in Rev. 12) flee to the Petra/Bozrah area where God will protect them Himself (Eagles wings...Eagle represents God the Father).

This is when the saints are persecuted and are killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God

Daniel 11:32-35
He will flatter and win over those who have violated the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him.
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.


The saints who belong to Christ are persecuted during this time .
For everyone else in Israel ,it will be like the days of Noah before the flood . They will be eating and drinking and and given in marriage until the flood comes and takes them all away.

You are talkin about 175ish BC here, this is about Antiochus and the Maccabean Revolt Saints. I have done an Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 that explains every verse and every player. You are conflating two different timelines, Dan. 21-34-35 is about Antiochus (I say 34-35 because actually 35 spans the 2000 year Church Age who turns WHITE until the very end). Dan. 11:36-45 is about the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast.

The Saints are Jews, that's why John via God who wrote the book of Revelation signifies that the Saints are DIFFERENT from the Martyrs of Jesus.

 

[CTK]

No, the 1/3 who repent (The Woman in Rev. 12) flee to the Petra/Bozrah area where God will protect them Himself (Eagles wings...Eagle represents God the Father).


You are talkin about 175ish BC here, this is about Antiochus and the Maccabean Revolt Saints. I have done an Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 that explains every verse and every player. You are conflating two different timelines, Dan. 21-34-35 is about Antiochus (I say 34-35 because actually 35 spans the 2000 year Church Age who turns WHITE until the very end). Dan. 11:36-45 is about the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast.

The Saints are Jews, that's why John via God who wrote the book of Revelation signifies that the Saints are DIFFERENT from the Martyrs of Jesus.

Ronald, if you do not mind, would you be willing to present your interpretations for verses 11:5 - 7? Thanks. Chapter 11 is / was the most difficult chapter by far to interepret.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Because time times and 1/2 a time is 3 1/2 years

I disagree

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

There is no resurrection of the dead in Christ mentioned in Daniel the ones dead Christ died after the the first advent.

Notice ….

Daniel 12

King James Version

​

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Everyone who is found written in The Lambs book of life includes both Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Also Michael the archangel mentioned in Daniel 12:1 is the one who sounds the last trump.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Things in the dead changed at the cross

God’s Word (Christ)has always been the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That is how the OT saints were saved, because they believed in God’s Word, which is to believe in Christ. God has always been the God of the Living, not the God of the dead.

Mathew 27
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people

This above is speaking of the “firstfruits” of Israel that were redeemed when Jesus was resurrected. It is the 144,000 mentioned here….

Revelation 14

King James Version

​

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.