The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Chosen People,

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

In their first covenant with God at Horeb, not kept by Israel, but fulfilled on their behalf by Christ, that they, through faith in Jesus Christ, may yet receive the blessings of that covenant.

This is the covenant which Moses recorded, and which Peter affirms.

And as Zechariah affirms for after YHWH returns to the Mount of Olives from which He went into heaven, "every cooking pot in Jerusalem will be Holy to the LORD", every cooking pot will be used for offerings, in a kingdom of priests.

It seems that you also ignored what I said and are not looking at the context of 1 Peter 2:9. Did you look at the surrounding verses?

1 Peter 2:5 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

What is the "spiritual house" which has Jesus as its "cornerstone" that Peter alluded to here? The ones who are part of that are part of the "holy priesthood" and "holy nation" that Peter referenced. Is that not the church? Of course it is. Paul talked about the same thing here:

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

You're acting as if Israelites are not yet part of the "spiritual house"/"holy priesthood"/"holy nation" that Peter talked about, but they most certainly are. That would be like saying the disciples, Paul and other Israelite believers are not yet part of it. Of course they are. It's the church which consists of Jew and Gentile believers together as one with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. Peter indicated that the "holy nation" and "royal priesthood" that he was talking about has Jesus as its cornerstone. Are there two entities that have Jesus as their cornerstone? No, there's just one and it's the church.

 

[marks]

It seems that you also ignored what I said and are not looking at the context of 1 Peter 2:9. Did you look at the surrounding verses?

Actually, I had my own statement I was making. Not to worry!

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

No. Although a nation is comprised of its individuals, it is always considered to be a single unit. God made a covenant with Israel, the nation. This aspect of the covenant is exemplified by the fact that God treated Israel as a unit. They left Egypt as a unit; they wandered in the wilderness as a unit; they entered the promised land as a unit; they entered the Babylonian captivity as a unit etc. Finally the scapegoat took all the sins of the people into the wilderness.

No. A nation does not have a mind. It is mindless. But its individual citizens each have a mind capable of mindfulness.

God does not covenant with mindlessness. He covenants with mindfulness born of faith and obedience.

If God had treated Israel as a unit, then He would have either slain all Israelites; or conversely, preserved all Israelites. The fact that He slew unfaithful disobedient Israelites, but at the same time preserved faithful obedient Israelites; demonstrates that He did not treat Israel as a unit.

Nor did Israel enter the promised land as a unit. Except for Caleb and Joshua, only those under twenty years of age entered. Numbers 32:10-12

 

[covenantee]

I take note of Paul's word that Israel didn't fall to her destruction. (11:11)

But there were those who did. Romans 11:11, 11:12, 11:22

In this context, Paul asserts that God was severe on "them that fell" indicating something or someone other than Israel.

"Fall" in the previous verses is applicable exclusively to Israelites.

There is no reason to believe that "fell" is not also applicable exclusively to Israelites.

This makes sense because the term "Israel", being a collective noun, is always considered as a single unit, which is logically and structurally identifiable as a whole.

It's not, as shown previously.

Branches were broken off for unbelief and they can be grafted back in by faith.

True. Exactly what I've been saying.

 

[covenantee]

No, Peter addressed his letter to the diaspora, his kinsmen who left the homeland to live outside the country.

Not limited to his kinsmen, but inclusive of all Christians in the churches of the mentioned regions.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 1:1 Greek

3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP

"in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

 

[covenantee]

Even if they are all wrong?

I'm completely confident that the collective dedication and scholarship of more than 40 unanimous translators far exceeds your own.

 

[covenantee]

The point is that the 'nation' to whom God gives the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43; is the people that bears the proper fruit.
That is: those who believe in Jesus and who keep the Commandments. Also - John 13:16, James 3:16, and those who do not produce good fruit will be cut off; Luke 3:9, plus; Bad trees do not produce good fruit; Luke 6:43.

Is the Jewish nation of Israel a good tree?
I suggest you look at the 20 + Prophesies that tell of the fate God has for all the Jesus rejectors. Isaiah 22:14 tells it straight.

Yes, and it is the true Church which is the nation which bears the referenced fruit of the Kingdom.

 

[covenantee]

The Chosen People,

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

In their first covenant with God at Horeb, not kept by Israel, but fulfilled on their behalf by Christ, that they, through faith in Jesus Christ, may yet receive the blessings of that covenant.

This is the covenant which Moses recorded, and which Peter affirms.

And as Zechariah affirms for after YHWH returns to the Mount of Olives from which He went into heaven, "every cooking pot in Jerusalem will be Holy to the LORD", every cooking pot will be used for offerings, in a kingdom of priests.

Much love!

Peter refers to Exodus 19:6 and applies it to the Church in 1 Peter 2:5,9.

 

[marks]

Peter refers to Exodus 19:6 and applies it to the Church in 1 Peter 2:5,9.

Peter quotes from Exodus according to it's context. He's not changing it's meaning. Consider to whom his letter is addressed.

1 Peter 1:1 YLT
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Peter quotes from Exodus according to it's context. He's not changing it's meaning. Consider to whom his letter is addressed.

1 Peter 1:1 YLT
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Much love!

He's changing its applicability, as the OT priesthood is replaced by the NT priesthood of the Church.

The grammatical referent of "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9 is "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5, and "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5 is unequivocally the Church.

Peter's letter is addressed to all Christians in the mentioned regions, as explained in post 425.

 

[marks]

He's changing its applicability, as the OT priesthood is replaced by the NT priesthood of the Church.

The grammatical referent of "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9 is "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5, and "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5 is unequivocally the Church.

Peter's letter is addressed to all Christians in the mentioned regions, as explained in post 425.

The aliens of the diaspora is fairly particular, actually. The OT Levitical priesthood was what was replaced with Christ's priesthood. However, that Israel would be a kingdom of priests, an holy nation, a peculiar people, this was in their first covenant with God at Horeb. Jesus fulfilled this covenant on their behalf, and they will enjoy the blessings of it as the nation comes to faith when Jesus returns. It was a covenant with a particular nation, and that nation in particular will receive the blessings of their covenant with God.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

The aliens of the diaspora is fairly particular, actually. The OT Levitical priesthood was what was replaced with Christ's priesthood. However, that Israel would be a kingdom of priests, an holy nation, a peculiar people, this was in their first covenant with God at Horeb. Jesus fulfilled this covenant on their behalf, and they will enjoy the blessings of it as the nation comes to faith when Jesus returns. It was a covenant with a particular nation, and that nation in particular will receive the blessings of their covenant with God.

Much love!

As shown Scripturally, God covenants only with individuals of faith and obedience.

Since Calvary, they are those found in His Church, and nowhere else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You didn't address anything I said specifically. I showed how scripture defines the spiritual house that has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone and it says it consists of Jew and Gentile believers together as one. How can 1 Peter 2:5-10 not be talking about that? Are there two spiritual houses of God that have Jesus Christ as the cornerstone? No. There is just one and that is the church.

You just ignored everything I said and responded with your own understanding. That's typical. It's clear that you don't care about context when interpreting scripture. The context clearly indicates that Peter was talking about the church. If he wasn't, then that would mean there are two spiritual entities that have Jesus Christ as the cornerstone and that is clearly not the case.

If you mean to say that I didn't break down your argument into bits and pieces in order to deal with each bit separately then I agree. I didn't do that. I stopped doing that a long time ago. I have since come to understand that ideas aren't disconnected bits of information; ideas work together to form a larger picture or a larger narrative. I did address what you said but with my own narrative/picture. All of my ideas form a coherent whole. And you are correct. That is now my typical response.

Why do I do that? There is NO way I can talk you out of your picture. All I can do is show you an alternate picture so that you might consider whether your picture or my picture aligns better with the Biblical picture. The difference between your picture and mine is the scope of our view. Your picture is reductive in nature as expressed in your statement "There is just one and that is the church." From my perspective, the prophetic word runs along two tracks, which will both lead to the same station eventually.

Of course, Jesus is the cornerstone of the house of God that he is building. This is a true statement and without controversy. Nonetheless, the Hebrew experience is much different than the Gentile experience with regard to the manner in which God is adding stones to the building.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. A nation does not have a mind. It is mindless. But its individual citizens each have a mind capable of mindfulness.

God does not covenant with mindlessness. He covenants with mindfulness born of faith and obedience.

If God had treated Israel as a unit, then He would have either slain all Israelites; or conversely, preserved all Israelites. The fact that He slew unfaithful disobedient Israelites, but at the same time preserved faithful obedient Israelites; demonstrates that He did not treat Israel as a unit.

Nor did Israel enter the promised land as a unit. Except for Caleb and Joshua, only those under twenty years of age entered. Numbers 32:10-12

Of course, a nation has a mind. The "mind" of the nation is the king, queen, president, or prime minister. A nation can't exist without leadership, laws, and judges. Every nation deals with internal affairs and foreign affairs. The king or other leader is the face and voice of the nation, sending out diplomats, placing ambassadors, making treaties, making peace agreements or going to war.

When one nation wants to make peace with another nation, the kings send ambassadors. They work out a peace agreement and each nation abides by the agreement. If the nation goes to war, the entire country goes to war. All sons are obligated to do battle and fight for their countrymen. Sometimes the daughters help.

When God dealt with the nation of Israel, he talked directly to Moses at first. Then, when he gave Israel a king, he talked to the king through the prophet. God treated Israel as a unit, dealing directly with her leaders. When God made a covenant with Israel, the agreement was between God and the nation of Israel, considered as a nation, considered as a unit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But there were those who did. Romans 11:11, 11:12, 11:22

Exactly, which proves that God and Paul are treating "Israel" as a unit. Individuals within the nation fell, but the nation itself didn't fall.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not limited to his kinsmen, but inclusive of all Christians in the churches of the mentioned regions.

No. He specifically mentions the diaspora.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 1:1 Greek

3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP

"in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

The word you indicated above, παρεπιδήμοις is the adjective describing the διασπορᾶς, the diaspora. As I said, the Northern Ten Tribes were taken into exile by the Assyrians, while the Southern two tribes were taken into exile by the Babylonians. However, even though the two tribes returned home from Babylon eventually, the ten tribes remained where they were: a sojourning diaspora.

The next word after διασπορᾶς

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm completely confident that the collective dedication and scholarship of more than 40 unanimous translators far exceeds your own.

I know. I don't have the same confidence though. In my training as a Bible student, I have become sensitive to what we call, "textual dissonance." Christians can tell when the translator has gotten something wrong when the translation implies a thought that is dissonant or discordant with the surrounding text.

Perhaps you have had this experience. While reading the text you might run across an idea that seems out of place. You might ask, "Did he really say that?" Then you might open up a Greek Lexicon to see if there might be other connotations of the word that are less discordant with the surrounding ideas.

Please believe me when I say that Bible publishing is not free of corruption or compromise. If a Bible publisher were to translate the word "group of men" rather than "nations" there would be an outcry from Christians and the publisher would lose Bible sales. Sometimes unanimity is explicable in terms of the herd mentality. Those outside the herd are in danger from predators. (so to speak) I am not impressed by the large number of people who agree. I am more impressed by a loner willing to stake his reputation and even his life on his beliefs.

 

[marks]

As shown Scripturally, God covenants only with individuals of faith and obedience.

Since Calvary, they are those found in His Church, and nowhere else.

What happened at Mt. Horeb?

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus fulfilled this covenant on their behalf, and they will enjoy the blessings of it as the nation comes to faith when Jesus returns.

God doesn't have an elect Nation in the middle east called Israel as you suggest

Only the remnant elect Jew will be saved by God's forekowledge and added to (The Church), "National Israel Is Blinded"

You act as if the scripture below doesn't exist "Why"?

"Israel Hath Not Obtained"

"The Election Hath Obtained" The Church

Romans 11:2-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

 

[covenantee]

I know. I don't have the same confidence though. In my training as a Bible student, I have become sensitive to what we call, "textual dissonance." Christians can tell when the translator has gotten something wrong when the translation implies a thought that is dissonant or discordant with the surrounding text.

Perhaps you have had this experience. While reading the text you might run across an idea that seems out of place. You might ask, "Did he really say that?" Then you might open up a Greek Lexicon to see if there might be other connotations of the word that are less discordant with the surrounding ideas.

Please believe me when I say that Bible publishing is not free of corruption or compromise. If a Bible publisher were to translate the word "group of men" rather than "nations" there would be an outcry from Christians and the publisher would lose Bible sales. Sometimes unanimity is explicable in terms of the herd mentality. Those outside the herd are in danger from predators. (so to speak) I am not impressed by the large number of people who agree. I am more impressed by a loner willing to stake his reputation and even his life on his beliefs.

If you can demonstrate that your understanding of the Greek language is superior to that of more than 40 unanimous translators, I would wish to see such a demonstration.