The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[covenantee]

The Kingdom wasn't taken away from Israel, it wasn't taken away from the Ten Tribes. It was taken away from the scribes and Pharisees. It will be given to the Apostles. Luke 22:30

It was given to a nation.

The Church.


Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[ewq1938]

The Kingdom wasn't taken away from Israel, it wasn't taken away from the Ten Tribes.

No, it was taken from a nation and given to a new nation according to the text:

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


It wasn't just taken from a tiny percentage of the nation of Israel, but the entire nation. These people representing the majority.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. I'm not backed into a corner. Apparently neither of you know what it means to be "a people." I can explain it to you if you like.

Just like you explain how Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed by God in the end (Universalism) a false heretical teaching

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes indeed. Unfaithfulness and disobedience, which were transgressions of God's Covenant, were indeed "something wrong".

God's punishment for those transgressions was death. Being "His people" did not spare them.

You've claimed that God's punishment was irrelevant.

That is manifestly false.

Perhaps you didn't know but the quality of "relevancy" is related to the question at hand. With respect to God's covenant faithfulness, the punishment of Israel does not nullify the covenant. God always remains faithful to his covenant.

Paul makes this assertion in Romans.

Romans 3:1-4
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,

“That You may be justified in Your words,
And prevail when You are judged.”

Hear the words of the apostle. Israel's unfaithfulness will never nullify the faithfulness of God.

It was given to a nation.

The Church.


Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Your translation is leading you to draw the wrong conclusion. The kingdom of God NEVER referred to a nation. It has always been referred to as a sanctified people as Peter points out. And Jesus would never suggest that the nation is being taken away from a sanctified people.

Rather, during the time Jesus spoke these words, the chief priests and Pharisees ruled over the sanctified people. He is telling the chief priests and Pharisees that the kingdom of sanctified people is being taken from THEM and given to the Apostles. In the future, the apostles will rule over the sanctified people. In a sense, they rule over us now through their writings. But in the future, they will physically rule on earth after the coming of Christ.

The chief priests and the Pharisees understood that Jesus was talking about them.

Matthew 21:45

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.​

The chief priests put Jesus to death because he threatened their place as the rulers of the kingdom. John 11:48


Matthew 23:1-3

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.​

The Kingdom was taken away from the chief priests and Pharisees in 70AD. When Jesus returns, the kingdom will be ruled by the Apostles.

Luke 22:29-30

. . . and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

The chief priests and the Pharisees ruled over the sanctified people until God took leadership away from them. He has granted that the apostles will lead the sanctified people instead.

____________
@ewq1938

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just like you explain how Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed by God in the end (Universalism) a false heretical teaching

You have me confused with someone else I think.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have me confused with someone else I think.

Do you belive Satan and the fallen angels will be cast into the lake of fire, for eternal torment?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you belive Satan and the fallen angels will be cast into the lake of fire, for eternal torment?

Yeah. Did I say otherwise? I don't think I did.

 

[covenantee]

With respect to God's covenant faithfulness, the punishment of Israel does not nullify the covenant.

It was nullified for those whom God slew because of their transgression of it, through unfaithfulness and disobedience. God does not covenant with the dead.

It was not nullified for those who remained faithful and obedient to Him.

God always remains faithful to his covenant.

Which He was and is for all who were and are faithful and obedient to Him.

The kingdom of God NEVER referred to a nation.

But the Church is. 1 Peter 2:5,9

It has always been referred to as a sanctified people as Peter points out.

Peter points out that it is a holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9

It is translated "nation" in the overwhelming majority of English Bible versions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It was nullified for those whom God slew because of their transgression of it, through unfaithfulness and disobedience. God does not covenant with the dead.

Nah. I don't see that in the scripture. Paul tells you that it was NOT nullified.

It was not nullified for those who remained faithful and obedient to Him.

The covenant was with the nation, not individuals.

But the Church is. 1 Peter 2:5,9

Peter points out that it is a holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9

Peter is not talking about the church or the Body of Christ. His kinsmen are the holy nation. (not individuals)

It is translated "nation" in the overwhelming majority of English Bible versions.

I disagree with the translation for the reasons I gave you.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have me confused with someone else I think.

My open apology before the forum, it was (Patrick1966) that teaches Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed, after my research on posters

Once again, my open apology before the forum

 

[covenantee]

Nah. I don't see that in the scripture. Paul tells you that it was NOT nullified.

Here's what Paul tells you:

Romans 11
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The covenant was with the nation, not individuals.

A nation is comprised of its individuals. The covenant was with each of its faithful obedient individuals.

Peter is not talking about the church or the Body of Christ. His kinsmen are the holy nation. (not individuals)

1 Peter 2:5,9 is the individuals comprising the holy nation of the Church.

I disagree with the translation for the reasons I gave you.

I'll take more than 40 English translations over your reasons.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My open apology before the forum, it was (Patrick1966) that teaches Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed, after my research on posters

Once again, my open apology before the forum

Thank you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here's what Paul tells you:

Romans 11
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I take note of Paul's word that Israel didn't fall to her destruction. (11:11) In this context, Paul asserts that God was severe on "them that fell" indicating something or someone other than Israel. This makes sense because the term "Israel", being a collective noun, is always considered as a single unit, which is logically and structurally identifiable as a whole. Israel didn't stubble so as to fall, but some of the holy branches were broken off the Olive Tree because of unbelief. Branches were broken off for unbelief and they can be grafted back in by faith.

A nation is comprised of its individuals. The covenant was with each of its faithful obedient individuals.

No. Although a nation is comprised of its individuals, it is always considered to be a single unit. God made a covenant with Israel, the nation. This aspect of the covenant is exemplified by the fact that God treated Israel as a unit. They left Egypt as a unit; they wandered in the wilderness as a unit; they entered the promised land as a unit; they entered the Babylonian captivity as a unit etc. Finally the scapegoat took all the sins of the people into the wilderness.

1 Peter 2:5,9 is the individuals comprising the holy nation of the Church.

No, Peter addressed his letter to the diaspora, his kinsmen who left the homeland to live outside the country.

I'll take more than 40 English translations over your reasons.

Even if they are all wrong? I don't understand your misplaced loyalty.
Jesus didn't speak English. Right? So you seem to be placing your trust in translators. Okay, I get that. But unless you want to claim that translations are inspired, then we have to consider the possibility that the translators misunderstood what Jesus said. And I wouldn't place much weight on the number of translations, which all agree due to the fact that translators copy each other.

The Greek word ἔθνει translated "nations" has a wide range of meanings. One of the possible meanings, which is the one that Jesus likely meant (in my estimation) is "1.a number of people accustomed to live together, a company, body of men," LSJ, Greek-English Lexicon.

Jesus was speaking about the Pharisees, a company of men, a brotherhood. The kingdom was going to be taken from one company of men and given to another company of men: the Apostles.

 

[Keraz]

I'll take more than 40 English translations over your reasons.

The point is that the 'nation' to whom God gives the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43; is the people that bears the proper fruit.
That is: those who believe in Jesus and who keep the Commandments. Also - John 13:16, James 3:16, and those who do not produce good fruit will be cut off; Luke 3:9, plus; Bad trees do not produce good fruit; Luke 6:43.

Is the Jewish nation of Israel a good tree?
I suggest you look at the 20 + Prophesies that tell of the fate God has for all the Jesus rejectors. Isaiah 22:14 tells it straight.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Peter addressed his letter to the diaspora, his kinsmen who left the homeland to live outside the country.

When the meaning of certain verses, such as 1 Peter 2:9, is being discussed do you ever read the surrounding verses for context and do you ever take other scripture into consideration?

1 Peter 2:5 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Notice verse 10 here. That helps to determine who Peter was talking to here. It would make no sense for Peter to say that his fellow Israelites were never the people of God, but now they are. They were the people of God for a long time. It is the Gentiles who once were not a people, but now are the people of God along with Israelite believers.

Another thing to consider here is what Peter said in 1 Peter 2:5-7. He talks about them being "built into a spiritual house" which has Jesus as its "cornerstone". That reminds me of this passage where Paul was writing about Gentiles who had previously been "separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12).

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

When you look at the context of 1 Peter 2:9 then you can see that Peter was not talking about "his kinsmen who left the homeland to live outside the country" as you claimed, but rather is talking about Gentile believers being made God's people when they previously were not God's people and being made part of "the holy nation" along with Israelite believers. Peter was talking about Gentile believers being brought together with Israelite believers in the household of God that is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone".

 

[CadyandZoe]

When the meaning of certain verses, such as 1 Peter 2:9, is being discussed do you ever read the surrounding verses for context and do you ever take other scripture into consideration?

Of course.

Notice verse 10 here. That helps to determine who Peter was talking to here. It would make no sense for Peter to say that his fellow Israelites were never the people of God, but now they are.

Did you notice verse 1?

They were the people of God for a long time. It is the Gentiles who once were not a people, but now are the people of God along with Israelite believers.

The reference to "not a people" comes from Hosea, where the Lord declares that the Northern Ten Tribes are "not my people." I'll explain.

First, a review. At the schism of Shechem, the Northern Ten Tribes split off from Israel and formed their own government. These 10 tribes were called "The House of Israel." The remaining two tribes were called "The House of Judah."* During the time of Ahaz, God told the king that the Northern Ten Tribes would fail to attack Judah because the Assyrians were going to capture Israel and take them away into the nations, but God would not allow the Assyrians to attack Judah.

Due to this unfortunate situation, the Ten Tribes became the Jewish diaspora, living as aliens and foreigners in foreign lands and away from their kinsmen. Thus, Peter opens his letter, "To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." In other words, Peter is talking to the sons and daughters born of the Ten Tribes who confess Jesus Christ. These folks, Peter says, were sanctified by the Spirit.

With this background under our belt, we can now understand the Lord word spoken through Hosea and his children about the Northern Ten Tribes who were once "a people" but were declared "not a people" by the Lord. One mode of Hosea's ministry was to name his children according to his prophetic word.

Hosea 1:
6 Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them. 7 But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen.”

8 When she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you [the house of Israel] are not My people and I am not your God.”

Here we see that the Lord refers to the house of Israel as "not my people." And so Peter, addressing the diaspora Christians, refers to them as a holy nation and a people who were once "not a people". Both of these characteristics are true of the diaspora.

__________________
* Note: the New Covenant Passage of Jeremiah refers to both of the houses by name: Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Another thing to consider here is what Peter said in 1 Peter 2:5-7. He talks about them being "built into a spiritual house" which has Jesus as its "cornerstone". That reminds me of this passage where Paul was writing about Gentiles who had previously been "separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12).

Yes. They are similar ideas. Peter is talking to members of the Ten Tribes who confess Christ, and Paul is talking about Gentiles who confessed Christ. Both of them have the adoption as sons because both of them have been sanctified by the Spirit.

 

[marks]

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The Chosen People,

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

In their first covenant with God at Horeb, not kept by Israel, but fulfilled on their behalf by Christ, that they, through faith in Jesus Christ, may yet receive the blessings of that covenant.

This is the covenant which Moses recorded, and which Peter affirms.

And as Zechariah affirms for after YHWH returns to the Mount of Olives from which He went into heaven, "every cooking pot in Jerusalem will be Holy to the LORD", every cooking pot will be used for offerings, in a kingdom of priests.

Much love!

 

[marks]

My bible college principal was a post trib historicist of the reformed variety. He explained it this way. He said that when Roman armies came back from their victories, they approached the city, with the general, riding a white horse in front of his armies. The people would come out to meet him and then join the procession as they entered the gates in his triumph.

It doesn’t answer all my questions either, but the apology has a ring of truth.

I've heard that myself different places. I'm not sure Jesus would follow Roman customs when He returns, would He?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I should've thought that if they were in heaven they would already be with Christ. But they appear to be "gathered from the 4 winds." I'd like to understand this better!

That's an interesting thought, and I am reminded of Colossians,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Even the living are hid with Christ in God, to appear when He appears.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course.

Did you notice verse 1?


The reference to "not a people" comes from Hosea, where the Lord declares that the Northern Ten Tribes are "not my people." I'll explain.

First, a review. At the schism of Shechem, the Northern Ten Tribes split off from Israel and formed their own government. These 10 tribes were called "The House of Israel." The remaining two tribes were called "The House of Judah."* During the time of Ahaz, God told the king that the Northern Ten Tribes would fail to attack Judah because the Assyrians were going to capture Israel and take them away into the nations, but God would not allow the Assyrians to attack Judah.

Due to this unfortunate situation, the Ten Tribes became the Jewish diaspora, living as aliens and foreigners in foreign lands and away from their kinsmen. Thus, Peter opens his letter, "To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." In other words, Peter is talking to the sons and daughters born of the Ten Tribes who confess Jesus Christ. These folks, Peter says, were sanctified by the Spirit.

With this background under our belt, we can now understand the Lord word spoken through Hosea and his children about the Northern Ten Tribes who were once "a people" but were declared "not a people" by the Lord. One mode of Hosea's ministry was to name his children according to his prophetic word.

Hosea 1:
6 Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them. 7 But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen.”

8 When she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you [the house of Israel] are not My people and I am not your God.”

Here we see that the Lord refers to the house of Israel as "not my people." And so Peter, addressing the diaspora Christians, refers to them as a holy nation and a people who were once "not a people". Both of these characteristics are true of the diaspora.

__________________
* Note: the New Covenant Passage of Jeremiah refers to both of the houses by name: Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Yes. They are similar ideas. Peter is talking to members of the Ten Tribes who confess Christ, and Paul is talking about Gentiles who confessed Christ. Both of them have the adoption as sons because both of them have been sanctified by the Spirit.

You didn't address anything I said specifically. I showed how scripture defines the spiritual house that has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone and it says it consists of Jew and Gentile believers together as one. How can 1 Peter 2:5-10 not be talking about that? Are there two spiritual houses of God that have Jesus Christ as the cornerstone? No. There is just one and that is the church.

You just ignored everything I said and responded with your own understanding. That's typical. It's clear that you don't care about context when interpreting scripture. The context clearly indicates that Peter was talking about the church. If he wasn't, then that would mean there are two spiritual entities that have Jesus Christ as the cornerstone and that is clearly not the case.