The Son of Man returns with and for his people
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CadyandZoe
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
While that might be true, it isn't relevant to the question. Your claim that the set of all those included in the 144 includes Gentiles is unfounded.
John tells us that God commanded the sealing of 144K "from every tribe of the sons of Israel." Then he lists them by name. "from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed," and so on.
Why were they sealed?
The process of sealing groups of people just before divine punishment is reminiscent of the events recorded in Ezekiel chapter 9. They "put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its [the temples] midst.” Then the slayer is commanded to "Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.”
The 144K are sealed just before divine punishment is given. Just as it was in Ezekiel 9, here in Revelation 7, the seal of God on the forehead alerts the destroyer not to harm them while burning up all the trees, etc. The angel warns the destroyers, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” And just as there were men who sighed and groaned over all the abominations that were being committed in the temple, there will be a limited number of people from among the descendants of Jacob that fear the Lord. These people will be marked and the destroyers will not harm them.
Revelation 7:1-8 represents the people of God among the descendants of Jacob in their tribes. The following represents people frm all tribes, including both Jews and Gentiles who worship the lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 7:9-12
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
With regard to salvation, John includes people from "every nation and all tribes", among them would be Jewish believers, who also stand "before the throne and before the lamb." The passage above describes the body of Christ where "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Revelation 7:1-8, speaks of the sons of Jacob, according to their tribes, whom God has set aside for himself. These are not yet included in the body of Christ but eventually, they will see him and believe in him. Malachi refers to them as "you who fear my name." (Malachi 4:2) Indicating those among the 12 tribes who will not be incinerated along with their kinsmen when the time comes. (Malachi 4:1) These will gather in Jerusalem in order to pray for deliverance, and they will meet with Jesus there and they will believe in him then.
The literary structure of Revelation chapter 7 clearly draws a distinction between the 144K who are on the earth and need protection from the destroyers, and those who are in heaven, standing before the throne and before the lamb. God is protecting both groups; the first group is descendants of Jacob; the second group is people from all tribes (including Jewish tribes) who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The first group has yet to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but eventually, they will meet him personally and will receive him at Zion. (Refer to Revelation 14.)
@Randy Kluth I believe this post speaks to your original question.
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If you believe that Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; are unfounded, then present your disproving founded Scriptures.
God is not a racist.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
God is not a racist. But he did choose a race to be his people.
The cited scriptures indicate the terms of naturalization, granting full Israeli citizenship to one of foreign birth. Ruth is a good example.
Your People shall be my people.
Ruth 1:16-18
But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the Lord do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me.” When she saw that she was determined to go with her, she said no more to her.
Ruth desired to become one of Naomi's people. She was entering a people under the Abrahamic covenant, wherein all males were required to be circumcised. As you pointed out.
And though God refers to them as "his people" he has established a distinction between "his people" and "the body of Christ." Thus, the story of Salvation is two distinct plot lines running in parallel: 1)The story of the people of God, and 2) The story of the body of Christ. And at the end of the Salvation story, the two parallel plot lines converge at the inauguration of the Day of the Lord.
Paul never argued that the people of God should cease circumcision; he argued that the followers of Christ need not be circumcised in order to enter the body of Christ and be saved. God taught Peter that circumcision was not a prerequisite for sanctification (the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.)
Acts 10:45
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Paul argued that the promised blessing of sanctification, (the gift of the Holy Spirit), a promise God made to Abraham, was not only on the circumcised but on the circumcised also. Romans 4:9-15. In other words, Paul argued from scripture that the "People of God" is a distinct class of people from "The Body of Christ." The scriptures you cited indicate the terms of naturalization, i.e. circumcision, while Paul argues that circumcision is not required to enter the body of Christ. The People of God are distinct from the Body of Christ.
Undoubtedly, there is some overlap. But in terms of the two plot lines, each plot line has a unique set of future events associated with it and both plot lines will converge a the coming of Christ to rule from Jerusalem. Revelation chapter 7 speaks about two different plot lines. Revelation 14 also speaks of two distinct plot lines. Even 1 Thessalonians speaks about two distinct plot lines.
Revelation 14 opens with the people of God meeting with Jesus on Mt. Zion. Next, we see the harvest of the body of Christ.
1Thessalonians 4 speaks about the harvest of the Body of Christ; 1Thessalonians 5 speaks about the times and seasons associated with the coming of Christ.
No. Do you not understand the Scriptures I've cited?
He chose faithful obedient Jews and Gentiles to be His People.
Then and now.
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
God is not a racist.
He cannot be contorted into one.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand them yes. I reminded you of the subject, which is naturalization. You want to argue that Israel included Gentiles and because of this, the Bible doesn't make a distinction between the people of God and the body of Christ. The scriptures you cited don't defeat my point because they speak of naturalization. Circumcision is the means to enter into the people of God, but it is not required to be in the Body of Christ.
No. His choice was not based on fidelity or obedience. He chose them because of a promise he made to their fathers. Deuteronomy 7:7-8
That's right. Peter is talking about all who fear his name. But Malachi is talking about the descendants of Jacob who fear his name.
Yes, God is not a racist. I agreed to that. But God chose a particular people for himself. (Bear in mind, Jesus HAD to be a son of David, in order to qualify to be the Messiah.)
Don't ignore the context of the Hebrew experience. God chose a particular family line to be a people for him. Deuteronomy 7:6. We understand this in the historical theological context, wherein all the nations of the earth worshipped a local god. According to the common understanding, each people on the earth took a god to be god for THEM. And each god took a people to be a people for HIM. One day, the real actual creator God, Yahweh, decided to take the Hebrew people to be HIS people. And at Mt. Sinai, they agreed to take Yahweh to be a god for them.
Got the picture?
The following passages are one example of why this concept is important.
Paul argues that the Law brings the entire world under sin. To prove his case as it concerns the Hebrew people, Paul reminds them of Jewish history in Romans 2.
Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
Where did Paul get the idea that the name of God was being blasphemed among the Gentiles?Refer to Isaiah 52. Here God complains that his name is being blasphemed among the Gentiles due to the fact that several nations were able to take Israel captive. (Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians) Bear in mind that each people group had a god to protect them. And victory in battle depended on which god was the strongest. Yahweh took Jacob's descendants to be his people and they took Yahweh to be a god for them. In other words, God promised to protect them from their enemies. But Yahweh decided to punish his people for not being a people for him. He allowed his people to be taken into exile.
So what Lie were the nations telling about Yahweh? "Yahweh is weak, he can't defend a people. He can't care for them. He can't teach them right from wrong. He is an ineffective leader and too weak to keep a people for himself. He hasn't proven to be much of a god for the Hebrew people. He is not god almighty because he can be defeated." Lies like these were being spoken among the Gentiles because, as Paul said, they were disobedient. (i.e. because of YOU!)
Bottom line, when Yahweh chose a people for himself, this choice should be understood in terms of what it meant to a religious humanity. Each nation took the local god to be a "god" for them, and presumably, the local god took the local people to be a "people" for him. When a god agrees to be a "god" for a people, the god agrees to give the people lots of crops, lots of children, and protection from natural disasters and enemies. The strongest among all the gods was called "god almighty", the strongest god around. Yahweh referred to himself as "god almighty" but because he was unable (apparently) to protect his people from being killed and captured by other peoples, it was said of him that he was NOT "god almighty." This wasn't true, of course. But from the Gentile perspective, Yahweh wasn't God almighty.
It isn't about racism. It's about a "marriage" relationship between a god and a people. In this case, Yahweh took Jacob and his descendants to be his people. And he speaks emphatically when he declares that this covenant will NEVER end. Those who idealize the concept of Israel, intentionally or unintentionally, obfuscate the prophetic word.
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Keraz
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Somehow the teachings of Jesus and Paul on who are the true people of God, has gone right over your head.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with who is a true believer and accepted by God.
I do know that God did make Promises to the Patriarchs; of their descendants being the inheritors of the holy Land, but scriptures like Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 1:10-14, make it clear that it was meant in a Spiritual sense. Romans 2:29 proves this.
Unfortunately, Church teaching does not make this clear, in fact the prevalent teaching is that Jews will be redeemed and restored, and therefore; there are two peoples of God.
This belief is part of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory. A Satanic lie from hell, which will cause many to renounce God when it doesn't happen.
By what criteria did God identify "them"?
Abraham's bloodline was already mixed by the second generation.
Jacob was the offspring of Isaac and Rebecca.
Abraham was not an ancestor of Rebecca, thus making Jacob of mixed blood.
With immeasurably more such mixture in every generation since.
Today after more than three millennia of such mixing via natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's genome is found in every inhabitant of our planet.
Rendering any attempt to racialize the Gospel as unScriptural and unscientific.
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No they're not.
1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If you're not one of the Body of Christ, then you're not one of the people of God.
Christianity Class 001.
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This is the only applicable Scriptural "naturalization" of which I'm aware:
1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Where in Christian historical orthodox doctrine do we find any other "naturalization"?
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree, ethnicity has nothing to do with who is a true believer and accepted by God. But it doesn't follow, therefore, that God didn't choose an ethnic group, Jacob, to be his people in the manner that I described earlier.
I am aware of the fact that we typically refer to true believers as "God's people" and rightly so. But I prefer to say that true believers are "children of God" following the Apostle John's lead. John speaks about those who were born of God, being children of God. And Paul often speaks about "the adoption as sons," referring to Jesus-followers as "children of God" and "the beloved of God."
Now, think back to the opening paragraphs of Romans chapter 11. Here Paul further clarifies the difference between Jacob, taken as a whole, and those among Jacob that God has "kept for himself." Romans 11:4. This is what Paul said earlier in chapter 9. With respect to a promise God made to Israel not all of Jacob will be considered "Israel." God is choosing individuals from among Jacob so that it will be by grace and not by works. (Romans 11:6) During the time of Ezekiel, only a small fraction of Jacob, a remnant, didn't bow the knee to Baal.
What am I saying? The prophetic word speaks about Yahweh's relationship with a people whom he chose to be "his people." (Deuteronomy 4:20 That is, Jacob. He agreed to be "god" for them and they agreed to be "a people" for him. (Exodus 24) The prophetic word concerning the coming of Jesus must be understood in this context since some among Jacob that are also born of God will witness the coming of Jesus when he triumphantly enters Jerusalem. Luke 13:35
Galatians 3:26-29
Yes, here once again the Apostle refers to them as "children of God." We are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
In the case of the future remnant, however, these children of God will be unfamiliar with Jesus Christ at first. The remnant are children of God, because they will have been born of God, and they will eventually believe that Jesus is the Messiah when they see the one whom they pierced. At that time, this remnant will join us in the Body of Christ. (Halleluiah.)
Ephesians 1:10-14
Here Paul makes reference to the administration of "times", that is, God orchestrated historical events to such a great degree that he causes all of the children of God to be subsumed under Jesus Christ. God intends to bring all of his children, past, present, and future, into the Body of Christ. Some of them will have known about Jesus during their lifetime, while others will not have known him. But in the end, all of God's children will receive him.
Jesus and the apostles speak about the restoration of Israel. So this should be without controversy. But I am aware of those who teach that God will save the entire nation of Israel all at once. And I used to teach this myself. But after an extensive study of "The Day of the Lord" concept, I have since changed my mind.
Instead, I understand the prophetic word a bit differently. To begin, remember what Paul said, "Without faith, it is impossible to please him." And Isaiah cries out, "It is the remnant that will be saved."
How will this look in the time to come? At that time, the call will go out to the people for them to come to Jerusalem. Apparently, only a remnant of the citizens of Israel will respond to the call because they fear the Lord. Only a small fraction of people will make the trip to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance. And all those who call upon the name of the Lord will be delivered. IN other words, as is typical of God, he will respond to faith.
The children of God among Jacob will respond to the call and come to Jerusalem. It just so happens that as the children of God among them, make their way toward Jerusalem, God is sending an army of fires to destroy everything they left behind, including those people who were arrogant evil doers. All were destroyed by fire except those who left home.
Salvation and even deliverance is always a matter of faith. The consecrated ones will survive, those who remained in Jerusalem. Joel 2:32,
The rapture is taught by Paul in 1Thessalonians chapter 4.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
One need only remember the story of the Exodus. God chose one people out of all the peoples of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 4:37
Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power.
Of course, but the Biblical story is not reductive. The story is centered on one particular man, Abraham, but the story is as complex and varied as human life is. With regard to the prophetic word, the story remains focused on the families that God freed from slavery in Egypt, specifically the 12 tribes of Israel. God made a covenant with this people and his "hesed" (covenant faithfulness) is everlasting.
Of course, but I am not "racializing the Gospel" as you put it. God chose Jacob to be "a people" for him. Jacob chose Yahweh to be a "god" for them. The prophetic word records the final disposition of "the remnant", which Isaiah calls "survivors". The substantial reason why the remnant survives is due to the fact that the remnant are God-fearers among the descendants of Jacob. God has reserved for himself a remnant and by faith, this remnant will make the trip to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord there. And at that time, when this remnant sees Jesus coming on a cloud, they will say, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you don't realize what you are doing, so I must point out that you are attempting to defend "folk-Christian" vernacular. While it is true that Christians often speak about believers as "God's people," The Biblical term is "God's children." True believes are children of God, as John the Apostle often says. Jacob is God's people, Biblically speaking and among God's people, Jacob, we expect to find "God's children." Not all the sons of Jacob are children of God.
Also, one must continually bear in mind the historical context into which John wrote, "Whoever denies the son denies the father." 2,000 years later what do we have?
Most people aren't even aware that Jesus existed; others think they believe in the actual Jesus but merely believe in a "Jesus" of their own making. Only those who know about the existence of Jesus and his story, can actually deny the son. And those who confess a fictional Jesus have already denied the son.
Many Jews living today, understandably, but wrongly associate Jesus with the holocaust. Let's call this mistaken view of Jesus as "holocaust Jesus." I don't think God would blame anyone for denying the "holocaust Jesus." For one, he never existed. And two, they aren't denying the actual Jesus. Some Jews living today, with an open mind, curiosity, and an open heart, read the NT and discover the actual Jesus. Many of these confess Jesus today and follow him.
Do I agree that the Father will deny those who deny the Son? Yes, of course. But I don't think the Father will deny those who deny the fictional son, whom evil men devised.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you are unaware that the word "naturalization" refers to the process of becoming a citizen of a country.
1 Corinthians 2:14
In this context, Paul maintains a distinction between those who are "of the spirit" and those who are "of the flesh" (borrowing vocabulary from Romans 8) "Spiritual" people, in Paul's view, are those individuals whom God has poured out his spirit into their hearts. Those individuals on whom God has not poured out his spirit are "natural." Those who are born of the Spirit are "spiritual" and those who are not born of the Spirit are "natural".
Paul contrasts and compares "spiritual" individuals with "natural" individuals. "Natural" individuals, he says, are unable to receive the things of the Spirit. "The natural man" (the man not indwelt by the Spirit) can not understand what was delivered by the Spirit.
Yes, although the term does not appear in Scripture.
However, if you can point to NT Scripture which describes your process of "naturalization", then your use thereof can be acceptable.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You brought it up. God commanded that any foreigner who wished to enter into the people of God needed to be circumcised.
You brought up "naturalization" which you're unable to corroborate from the NT; and the NT people of God are one and the same as the NT Body of Christ, in which circumcision availeth nothing.
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
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Unsurprisingly, you continue to confuse race and religion. Perhaps you don't realize what you are doing.
It is Jews by religion of whom John wrote, those who deny the Son and thus also deny the Father.
Multitudes exist today 2,000 years later.
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