The social gospel?

[VictoryinJesus]

My husband said something the other night, and the way he said it …it stood out. “God killed an animal to clothe me.”

God killed an animal …to clothe me. Sounds like God killed an animal to clothe me with the animal, yea?
For the first time that stood out as God doesn’t kill an animal to clothe me with the animal. BUT God killed an animal to clothe me with Himself. Put on: the Fruits of the Spirit and not the animalistic nature of: Galatians 5:19-23 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Why does it matter? Because I hear Paul. If he could speak to us saying for sure: God killed an animal…to clothe me. To me that takes on a new meaning of Saul was the animal and I do think Paul would say an animal died …for Paul to be clothed in Christ. But I’m not so sure God killed the animal because of where Paul said sin killed it, but it was the Law of God which is Good and Holy that revealed the animal where by sin worked through the law …the animal was slain. Yes…to me “God killed an animal…to clothe me.” Sounds different now, much like where Joshua stood in the OT and the angel of the Lord said “is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” …”remove the filthy garments” saying “I will give him a change of clothing.”

The animal will die. ?

Thinking further about the animal…

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

To be found in him, not having been clothed in animal skin, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, clothed upon of God —-the Righteousness which is of God by Faith:

 

[Episkopos]

No we must not abuse His grace, that way leads to death......but that is not the same thing as sometimes inadvertently sinning. And I agree we must seek to be holy....

But are we not to seek holiness the SAME WAY we seek for forgiveness? Is there forgiveness WITHOUT holiness? Think about it. Which do you prefer? Barabbas or Jesus? That's the choice that God is giving us. It's not my invention. People will say that I'm making up a holiness standard...because they have been promised eternal life for just being themselves.

But such unbelief and denials are normal....for those who are blind and deaf.

I believe that means to be spiritual, no longer carnal and in the flesh. I don't disagree with all that you say, but you are too polarized in your thinking on some of these things..

I seem polarized to you, uncompromising.. is a better term...because that's the way God is. He doesn't think like humans do. He gives all and expects ALL in return. You haven't yet understood the upward call. You are temporizing, what you think is "reasonable" without calculating that nothing that Jesus did for us is reasonable. It is extravagant. Like the woman who poured the alabaster perfume on Jesus; head.

..please try to take a step back and be willing to see what might need adjusting in some of it.

If you knew what I have gone through to bring this message...

It's ok to make adjustments and change our minds on things as we go along...that is how we grow and I don't believe any of us have stopped growing.

Repentance is not a tweaking or minor correction in our course. Without repentance we will get farther and farther away.

 

[Episkopos]

Is there any hope for those who choose Barabbas (those who choose amnesty and forgiveness over sacrifice and holiness)? In my estimation...no. Is there any hope for those who want to choose both Barabbas AND Jesus? Both amnesty/forgiveness AND sacrifice/holiness? (At least in theory)

Like a rich man going through the eye of a needle, perhaps.

In Lev. 16 we read about the day of atonement...which is about who will benefit from the atonement of Christ. The sacrificial goats are the Lord's. Those who chose sacrifice and holiness over amnesty and forgiveness. But the scapegoat (AZAZEL) is sent into the wilderness (outer darkness). Such are NOT the Lord's. God is selfless and sacrificial in His love. Unless we return that same kind of love...we are not His.

Who has understanding of these things?

 

[Lizbeth]

But are we not to seek holiness the SAME WAY we seek for forgiveness? Is there forgiveness WITHOUT holiness? Think about it. Which do you prefer? Barabbas or Jesus? That's the choice that God is giving us. It's not my invention. People will say that I'm making up a holiness standard...because they have been promised eternal life for just being themselves.

But such unbelief and denials are normal....for those who are blind and deaf.


I seem polarized to you, uncompromising.. is a better term...because that's the way God is. He doesn't think like humans do. He gives all and expects ALL in return. You haven't yet understood the upward call. You are temporizing, what you think is "reasonable" without calculating that nothing that Jesus did for us is reasonable. It is extravagant. Like the woman who poured the alabaster perfume on Jesus; head.


If you knew what I have gone through to bring this message...

Repentance is not a tweaking or minor correction in our course. Without repentance we will get farther and farther away.

But is there holiness without forgiveness?

 

[Episkopos]

But is there holiness without forgiveness?

That is something you can talk to God about.

 

[Lizbeth]

Repentance is not a tweaking or minor correction in our course. Without repentance we will get farther and farther away.

Yes but I was being tactful.....

 

[Lizbeth]

That is something you can talk to God about.

No with respect I think it's something you need to talk to Him about. That is my area of contention with you. Christ IN us the hope of glory. We can't be holy unless He has first put it in us. There is no building/edifice without a foundation because have to be building up from it. No other foundation can any man lay than that is already laid....Christ in us.

 

[Wrangler]

Hope you are not being disingenuous again.

Often when I read @Episkopos posts, I'm reminded of that insurance commercial where an old guy has a fishing rod with a dollar attached the hook. His reliance on mysticism causes his readers to go from following what he is saying to NOPE, almost got it, e.g., "INTO" Christ, Jesus did not pay for our sins, etc.

It's like he never wants us to get the dollar at the end of the fishing line. I think this is because there is no theological point. Ego gratifying maybe but no theological point. What's this thread about; the social Gospel? Somehow they all devolve into semantics.

 

[Johann]

Is there any hope for those who choose Barabbas (those who choose amnesty and forgiveness over sacrifice and holiness)? In my estimation...no. Is there any hope for those who want to choose both Barabbas AND Jesus? Both amnesty/forgiveness AND sacrifice/holiness? (At least in theory)

Like a rich man going through the eye of a needle, perhaps.

In Lev. 16 we read about the day of atonement...which is about who will benefit from the atonement of Christ. The sacrificial goats are the Lord's. Those who chose sacrifice and holiness over amnesty and forgiveness. But the scapegoat (AZAZEL) is sent into the wilderness (outer darkness). Such are NOT the Lord's God is selfless and sacrificial in His love. Unless we return that same kind of love...we are not His.

Who has understanding of these things?

To put it into perspective, see how you are not able to "compartmentalize" nor rightly divide the D'varim of YHVH-your gospel, not the gospel of Jesus or Paul.

Understanding Barabbas and Jesus
Firstly, the choice between Barabbas and Jesus in the Gospels is symbolic but needs to be understood correctly. Barabbas represents a worldly, violent solution, while Jesus represents God's path of sacrificial love and redemption. Choosing Barabbas was a historical event where the crowd chose to release a criminal instead of Jesus. This isn't about choosing amnesty over sacrifice, but rather a moment illustrating the rejection of Jesus.

Forgiveness and Sacrifice
Christianity teaches that both forgiveness and sacrifice are integral to our faith. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is the means by which we receive forgiveness. The two are inseparable:

Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
Hebrews 10:10: "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The Rich Man and the Eye of a Needle
Your analogy of the rich man going through the eye of a needle (Matthew 19:24) highlights the difficulty of entering the Kingdom of God when one clings to worldly wealth and self-reliance. However, Jesus adds in Matthew 19:26, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." This means that salvation is entirely possible with God's help, regardless of our initial inclinations or choices.

The Day of Atonement and Atonement of Christ
Regarding Leviticus 16 and the Day of Atonement, it's essential to recognize that both goats (the sacrificial goat and the scapegoat) represent different aspects of atonement:

Sacrificial Goat: Represents the sacrifice for sin, pointing to Christ’s ultimate sacrifice.
Scapegoat: Represents the removal of sin, symbolizing how Christ takes away our sins.

God's Love and Our Response
You mention that we must return God’s selfless and sacrificial love. While it's true that our lives should reflect God's love, it's also crucial to remember that our salvation is not earned by our ability to perfectly mirror God's love but through faith in Jesus Christ and His grace:

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

1 John 4:19: "We love because he first loved us."

In summary, there's hope for everyone who turns to Jesus Christ, regardless of past choices. The essential message of Christianity is that Jesus’ sacrifice offers forgiveness, and through Him, we can be made holy. It’s not about choosing between forgiveness and sacrifice—they are parts of the same divine plan. God's grace and love extend to all who come to Him in faith.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Often when I read @Episkopos posts, I'm reminded of that insurance commercial where an old guy has a fishing rod with a dollar attached the hook. His reliance on mysticism causes his readers to go from following what he is saying to NOPE, almost got it, e.g., "INTO" Christ, Jesus did not pay for our sins, etc.

It's like he never wants us to get the dollar at the end of the fishing line. I think this is because there is no theological point. Ego gratifying maybe but no theological point. What's this thread about; the social Gospel? Somehow they all devolve into semantics.

I don't disagree with him about everything...think he reached deep down into Christ in him with the rest of that post. It's possible I might have misunderstood what he meant about Barabbas and Jesus, I am just not getting the connection.

If he would just acknowledge the foundation it might eliminate some of the confusion with the rest.

 

[Johann]

No with respect I think it's something you need to talk to Him about. That is my area of contention with you. Christ IN us the hope of glory. We can't be holy unless He has first put it in us. There is no building/edifice without a foundation because have to be building up from it. No other foundation can any man lay than that is already laid....Christ in us.

Amen-keep on preaching sister, you have your head screwed on right, heart in the right place, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, sealed with the Spirit and sense the dunamis in your powerful reasoning.
J.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But are we not to seek holiness the SAME WAY we seek for forgiveness? Is there forgiveness WITHOUT holiness? Think about it. Which do you prefer? Barabbas or Jesus? That's the choice that God is giving us. It's not my invention.

I haven’t read all of the post y’all have had concerning “a thief” or “Jesus” …so I’m not sure if this has been brought up already. To me it’s significant. In all the warnings of “you know that day comes as a thief” but then also “so that day doesn’t overtake you as a thief” …you are not of the night but of the day. It’s significant to me too because even there’s an angst between what people say in whether he comes as a thief in the night or not as a thief in the day. You hear both told…differing opinions of how He comes. Two perspectives told, to where it seems contradictory: He comes as a thief in the night yet He overcomes the thief where darkness has past, a light has shined into the darkness. You are of the Day. Not of the Night. Yet by mens own mouths there are two perspectives…which reminds me of what you are saying about asking for “a thief” or “Jesus Christ” …both told of “as a thief in the Night” or so that day doesn’t overtake you as a thief…which are we asking for? It seems our own mouth will tell us which to expect…by which we say is coming, our looking and waiting for what we expect to come.

 

[Episkopos]

Often when I read @Episkopos posts, I'm reminded of that insurance commercial where an old guy has a fishing rod with a dollar attached the hook. His reliance on mysticism causes his readers to go from following what he is saying to NOPE, almost got it, e.g., "INTO" Christ, Jesus did not pay for our sins, etc.

It's like he never wants us to get the dollar at the end of the fishing line. I think this is because there is no theological point. Ego gratifying maybe but no theological point. What's this thread about; the social Gospel? Somehow they all devolve into semantics.

It's not my dollar to give. It is the Lord who brings the increase. People want affirmation. I will only affirm what is eternal in nature and value...or else is honest and righteously sincere.

 

[marks]

Often when I read @Episkopos posts, I'm reminded of that insurance commercial where an old guy has a fishing rod with a dollar attached the hook. His reliance on mysticism causes his readers to go from following what he is saying to NOPE, almost got it, e.g., "INTO" Christ, Jesus did not pay for our sins, etc.

It's like he never wants us to get the dollar at the end of the fishing line. I think this is because there is no theological point. Ego gratifying maybe but no theological point. What's this thread about; the social Gospel? Somehow they all devolve into semantics.

I agree. It's all about the process, and getting people tangled up with false words.

Much love!

 

[marks]

yes, that disingenuousness is seen a lot.........and I think we have to accept that it says a lot, sadly.

Dr. Laura Schlessinger used to have a radio show I liked to listen to. One thing she'd say that really stuck with me, "when someone shows you who they are, believe them."

We can have a tendency to want to ascribe good motives to others, but others do not always have good motives. When someone shows themself year after year the same, we do well to understand, this is how this person is.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Unless we return that same kind of love...we are not His.

Are you sure about that? or how do you mean it?

Wouldn't it be truer to say that until we return that same kind of love we aren't fully matured? Christ not fully revealed in us yet. There is the aspect of growing to consider. Little babes and children belong to the household and are returning as much love as they are yet able...though they do not have full status yet, as adults. Do parents not extend GRACE to their children when young? The mountain cut out without hands getting bigger and bigger until it fills the whole "earth". I must decrease, He must INCREASE.

 

[Wrangler]

I will only affirm what is eternal in nature and value

That's your problem!

I'm reading a book now called No More Christian Nice Guy. The author parses the Spiritual from the Soulful. He contends today's churches are too biased toward the Spiritual, neglecting the practical needs of the body of Christ.

Although my daily bread, which I give thanks to God for, rots over time and is not eternal in nature, we still need it. The Social Gospel is about the soulful; what people need in the here and now.

 

[Johann]

Dr. Laura Schlessinger used to have a radio show I liked to listen to. One thing she'd say that really stuck with me, "when someone shows you who they are, believe them."

We can have a tendency to want to ascribe good motives to others, but others do not always have good motives. When someone shows themself year after year the same, we do well to understand, this is how this person is.

Much love!

Here's my perspective: In an online setting, we don’t see each other face-to-face, and we don't truly know one another beyond our words on the screen. It’s easy to talk the talk here, but walking the walk is a whole different matter. Truly understanding someone’s faith and character requires seeing how they live out their beliefs in real life, interacting with them in person, and witnessing their actions and choices firsthand. Online words are one thing, but real-life actions speak volumes.
My 2 cents
J.

 

[Wrangler]

It's not my dollar to give.

Yes, it is.

It is my analogy and it is your dollar to give. The dollar represents respect for others, humility, appreciation and acknowledgement that others know the Spirit of God AND have effectively communicated it in the present case.

I put it this way. @Lizbeth puts it another way. @marks still puts it a 3rd way. And there are many others who have come to you in love about your disingenuous nature. You don't have eyes to see.

 

[marks]

Here's my perspective: In an online setting, we don’t see each other face-to-face, and we don't truly know one another beyond our words on the screen. It’s easy to talk the talk here, but walking the walk is a whole different matter. Truly understanding someone’s faith and character requires seeing how they live out their beliefs in real life, interacting with them in person, and witnessing their actions and choices firsthand. Online words are one thing, but real-life actions speak volumes.
My 2 cents
J.

All true! And Jesus said, Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Much love!