The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Jack]

I think heaven will be filled with people who never heard the name of Jesus :)

I think you will be sorely disappointed.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[quietthinker]

I think you will be sorely disappointed.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.

God is in the Salvation business not the condemnation business......that's the devils domain.
God has come to earth so we can see what he is really like......and what I see is not one who will let anyone slip through his fingers......unless they insist on slipping through.

We can have confidence that God has the well being of all people at heart.......we can tell people they are loved beyond what they can imagine........we can know ie, trust that what God sets out to do he will accomplish.

We can introduce them to Jesus. Do we know him enough to do that?
'while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly' Romans 5:6

 

[post]

Gen. 19[15] And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Instead adding in two additional daughters, making four, could it be that the two only daughters "left all", due to believing and adhering to the message of their father Lot, about the soon coming and total destruction of Sodom, and therefore were now with Lot and not their mocking husbands?

in 19:8 Lot says of the two daughters who live with him, and are rescued with him, that they have never known a man.
if there are grandsons, it is not by these
in 19:14 it only says he spoke to his sons-in-law, not his daughters - it could be that this is because they are the respective heads of their households.
that is interesting because it is placed after the surrounding of his house by the mob of all the men in the city. this can be attributed to the Hebrew style of writing however, which sometimes puts events out of chronological order, instead recounting them in order of pertinence to the narrative.

It was the one warning, if not obeyed, had immediate consequences: "lest thou be consumed".

however it was not related as the consequences of looking back, but of failing to flee to the mountains:

And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said,
Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
(Genesis 19:17 kjv)
​

another commandment Lot refused to obey..
so while i am well aware it is the common preaching, it is really quite difficult to accept that she is condemned for a glance while Lot continually rebuffs at everything the angels say, yet is saved -- if indeed this is about a works-based salvation which teeters precariously on perfect obedience.

​

 

[post]

I think we are in a "Grey area".
I understand your position, but I am concerned that we both are putting it all on the knife edge of supposition. Because of the inaccuracy of historical data, concerning how many daughters of Lot there were, there isn't much hope for a solid conclusion about the total number of daughters.
As for immediate sons to Lot, I still hold that he had none.
Thanks for your discussion on this topic.
Lot's daughters - Wikipedia

thank you too for your cordiality & interest, particularly because this isn't exactly the thread topic at all lol

i don't think it's right to call it the 'inaccuracy of historical data' -- rather the scarcity of information God chose to give us on the topic. but He does so in order to make us think, and to meditate on what He does give us. our faith is one of an active mind, being by believing - a cognitive action, not a physical one. and it suits His purposes to give us in the narrative that which is testimony of Christ; all of these accounts are teaching us of Him, and are a picture of Him & salvation. primarily we ought to concern ourselves when reading the OT to find Christ in it

Lot is saved by mercy - explicitly in v.16, and again in v.29 it is because God remembered Abraham that He saved Lot, which ties all of this directly to the close of ch.18, where Abraham pleaded with God to spare the city for the sake of 10 righteous, if they were found.
why does Abraham stop with 10 people?
my position can answer that question, and that's really what leads to the supposition and inferences i related to you.

thinking about it all again this morning, another interesting point:
Lot goes out to speak to the mob of the wicked without the angels with him in 19:6, and shuts the door behind him.
they reject his words to them and press him back to the closed door, v.9
then in 19:10 the angels, from inside the house, snatch Lot away from the wicked and again shut the door.
what's the typology of this?

 

[Brakelite]

we are more than our earthly bodies.
God is spirit ((John 4:24)) -- how is it then, that God speaks?

Spiritual body. As do angels. As will we have at the resurrection.

 

[Earburner]

I think Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in the eternal fire that Jesus warned of.

Hi Jack, do you think that when Jesus returns from Heaven, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on all who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel of Christ, that they shall be consumed by the fire of God, as was Lot's wife? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

And, if it be that same consuming fire of God Himself, reaching every unsaved person on the earth in that Day, will it be a sudden global event, whereby Peter provides the graphic details of that reality, being equal to Sodom? 2 Peter 3:7-10

 

[Earburner]

i don't think it's right to call it the 'inaccuracy of historical data' -- rather the scarcity of information God chose to give us on the topic. but He does so in order to make us think, and to meditate on what He does give us. our faith is one of an active mind, being by believing - a cognitive action, not a physical one. and it suits His purposes to give us in the narrative that which is testimony of Christ; all of these accounts are teaching us of Him, and are a picture of Him & salvation. primarily we ought to concern ourselves when reading the OT to find Christ in it

Amen! I agree whole heartedly. Especially your last sentence above.

 

[Earburner]

thinking about it all again this morning, another interesting point:
Lot goes out to speak to the mob of the wicked without the angels with him in 19:6, and shuts the door behind him.
they reject his words to them and press him back to the closed door, v.9
then in 19:10 the angels, from inside the house, snatch Lot away from the wicked and again shut the door.
what's the typology of this?

John.20[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
John.14[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Earburner]

in 19:8 Lot says of the two daughters who live with him, and are rescued with him, that they have never known a man.
if there are grandsons, it is not by these
in 19:14 it only says he spoke to his sons-in-law, not his daughters - it could be that this is because they are the respective heads of their households.
that is interesting because it is placed after the surrounding of his house by the mob of all the men in the city. this can be attributed to the Hebrew style of writing however, which sometimes puts events out of chronological order, instead recounting them in order of pertinence to the narrative.




however it was not related as the consequences of looking back, but of failing to flee to the mountains:

And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said,
Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
(Genesis 19:17 kjv)
​

another commandment Lot refused to obey..
so while i am well aware it is the common preaching, it is really quite difficult to accept that she is condemned for a glance while Lot continually rebuffs at everything the angels say, yet is saved -- if indeed this is about a works-based salvation which teeters precariously on perfect obedience.

Actually, there were two conditions for not being consumed by God's fiery inferno upon Sodom.
"...look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain;"
Honestly, I firmly believe that the eyes of Lot's wife saw the face of God, and therefore was consumed herself, by the consuming fire of Himself.

Edit: please notice, that on a plain, one can "see" for a long distance, being that there would be no mountains or hills to block one's vision.

 

[Earburner]

In summary, the point that matters is Jesus' perspective and emphasis: "Remember Lot's wife".
Luke 17:20-37
In the context of Luke 17, the KoG will not be coming with observation, but rather suddenly * shall He appear in His second coming. We, His Saints, are not to be looking around for anything to gather, whether that be things of possession, or loved ones.

* Note- examples of how suddenly the appearance of the KoG can be manifested: Mark 9:8, Mark 13:35-37, Luke 2:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

Edit:
So, the reality for us at this moment, should THE Lord come today, in all His Glory, are WE who profess His Name, READY?
Romans 8:8-9 tells us of our current condition.
As to how to rectify our condition, Revelation 3:20 explains that also.

Suddenly, by our memory, comes the children's game of "Hide & Seek",........"Ready or not, here I come".

 

[PinSeeker]

Hi Jack, do you think that when Jesus returns from Heaven, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on all who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel of Christ, that they shall be consumed by the fire of God, as was Lot's wife? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

You didn't direct this question at me, Earburner, but I'm going to speak to it if I may. All through the Bible, fire is symbolic of God's righteous and holy anger and His judgment. Yes, I believe "they will be consumed by the fire of God," as you say, but I think we understand that very differently. Possibly not, but it seems that way. As we read in Hebrews, our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Jesus will come in judgment at the end of the age, and He will execute this final Judgment, as we see in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46 and in Revelation 20:11-15. Those on the wrong side of it will be sent away ~ into "outer darkness," a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a place of "thirst," of "torment" (which should be understood as a mental anguish and the total absence of hope... all of these things I put in quotes, not just because Scripture says those things but also because they should all be understood mostly in a figurative, spiritual sense, although literally true.

And, if it be that same consuming fire of God Himself, reaching every unsaved person on the earth in that Day, will it be a sudden global event, whereby Peter provides the graphic details of that reality, being equal to Sodom? 2 Peter 3:7-10

Yes, I agree that it will certainly be sudden and global:

• Jesus will return
• the general resurrection will occur ("...all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ John 5:28-29)
• the Judgment will take place and those on Jesus's proverbial left, having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29) will be sent away (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:46) and they will obediently go
• the new heaven and new earth will finally be a reality (Revelation 21).

As God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." That's very important; He will make all things new, rather than "making all new things." :)

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Earburner]

You didn't direct this question at me, Earburner, but I'm going to speak to it if I may. All through the Bible, fire is symbolic of God's righteous and holy anger and His judgment. Yes, I believe "they will be consumed by the fire of God," as you say, but I think we understand that very differently. Possibly not, but it seems that way. As we read in Hebrews, our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Jesus will come in judgment at the end of the age, and He will execute this final Judgment, as we see in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46 and in Revelation 20:11-15. Those on the wrong side of it will be sent away ~ into "outer darkness," a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a place of "thirst," of "torment" (which should be understood as a mental anguish and the total absence of hope... all of these things I put in quotes, not just because Scripture says those things but also because they should all be understood mostly in a figurative, spiritual sense, although literally true.


Yes, I agree that it will certainly be sudden and global:

• Jesus will return
• the general resurrection will occur ("...all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ John 5:28-29)
• the Judgment will take place and those on Jesus's proverbial left, having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29) will be sent away (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:46) and they will obediently go
• the new heaven and new earth will finally be a reality (Revelation 21).

As God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." That's very important; He will make all things new, rather than "making all new things." :)

Grace and peace to you!

Thanks for your reply Pinseeker.
Right out of the gate, before I comment on anything of your post, it's important for you to understand my perspective about Genesis 2:7.
I am thoroughly convinced that man became a living [mortal] soul, and did not receive a soul of any kind, for an eternal existence.

The interpretations of all scripture, as well as the many topics in scripture, are "filtered" through either one those two poles, and most often than not, they stand extremely opposed to each other in all things, as does North and South.

However, having said that, I do agree that much of scripture is to be interpreted spiritually and figuratively, knowing that God's thoughts and God's ways are not ours, by our natural man/mind. Hence the need for the Mind of Christ to be within us by His Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:16.
Unfortunately, Christendom has done an enormous amount of damage, by interpreting scripture verbatim through the natural mind.
As a result, they have filled the world with their doctrines, and are barely able to contain themselves, when discussing anything that is contrary to what they have set in stone, by the wisdom of men. 1 Corinthians 2:5.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hmmmm... :)

Right out of the gate, before I comment on anything of your post, it's important for you to understand my perspective about Genesis 2:7.

I am thoroughly convinced that man became a living [mortal] soul, and did not receive a soul of any kind, for an eternal existence.
I'm... really not sure what kind of distinction you're trying to make, here, Earburner. I'm sure you would agree that this creation of man was before the Fall, which is documented in Genesis 3. and in Genesis 2:17, God warned Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that he ate of it, he would surely die. So there's a huge difference in the state of Adam's and Eve's existence originally and the state of their existence after the events of Genesis 3. And because Eve is the mother of all the living, we are in the same state Adam and Eve were after the events of Genesis 3 from birth, and until we are born again of the Spirit. I'm not really sure what you're saying with this distinction, except that I think what you seem to be getting at here is support for annihilationism, which I hope is a misunderstanding on my part. :)

The interpretations of all scripture, as well as the many topics in scripture, are "filtered" through either one those two poles, and most often than not, they stand extremely opposed to each other in all things, as does North and South.

Um, well, again, if what you're really getting at is supporting annihilationism, I would agree that that twists many Scriptural things into something that they are assuredly not, yes.

However, having said that, I do agree that much of scripture is to be interpreted spiritually and figuratively, knowing that God's thoughts and God's ways are not ours, by our natural man/mind. Hence the need for the Mind of Christ to be within us by His Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:16.

Sure. But we should then be fully understanding what Paul means by our having the mind of Christ, right? In Philippians 2, he is a little more clear on exactly what that is. There, this same Paul says:

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8)

So what is spoken of here is His complete humility, His selflessness for the sake God the Father and His glory and of others. This is the mind of Christ. We are to have this mind among ourselves. Having the mind of Christ is not a wooden "thinking the same thoughts as Christ did." I'm being a bit facetious in saying it that way, but it is what it is; we, in our finite state, are incapable ~ for now ~ of thinking the same thoughts as the One Who is infinite. As David says in Psalm 139:6, "(s)uch knowledge is too wonderful for (us); it is high; (we) cannot attain it."

Unfortunately, Christendom has done an enormous amount of damage, by interpreting scripture verbatim through the natural mind.

Ugh... "Christendom." Okay, well, damage to what? I mean, the Word of our God endures forever (Isaiah, Peter), despite the best efforts of some men... Right? :) And, quoting from the same chapter of Isaiah's prophecy that you did in stating that His thoughts and ways are not ours (Isaiah 55:8-9, God's Word never returns to Him empty or void:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]​

So yes, humanly speaking, what people have said as caused great damage, but in the other sense~ from God's perspective ~ not at all.

As a result, they have filled the world with their doctrines, and are barely able to contain themselves, when discussing anything that is contrary to what they have set in stone, by the wisdom of men. 1 Corinthians 2:5.

Okay, sure. I mean, like Paul says, "the time is coming..." (and is now here, obviously) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Timothy 4:3). But vengeance is the Lord's; He will repay (Genesis 4, Deuteronomy 32, Romans 12). He will separate the "wheat" from the "tares," as Jesus says in His parable in Matthew 13.

Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner!

 

[bbyrd009]

11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name

ok i already know that this is basically pointless as no one wants to hear, but they did have a word for “forever” fwiw, and aion was not it,
Revelation 14:11 Lexicon: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

 

[bbyrd009]

Strong's Greek: 126. ἀΐδιος (aidios) -- everlasting
and here’s a pretty decent imo discussion on the difference,
Does the Greek Word Aion Mean Eternity? | Tommy Redmon

 

[Earburner]

I am thoroughly convinced that man became a living [mortal] soul, and did not receive a soul of any kind, for an eternal existence.

I'm... really not sure what kind of distinction you're trying to make, here, Earburner. I'm sure you would agree that this creation of man was before the Fall, which is documented in Genesis 3. and in Genesis 2:17, God warned Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that he ate of it, he would surely die. So there's a huge difference in the state of Adam's and Eve's existence originally and the state of their existence after the events of Genesis 3. And because Eve is the mother of all the living, we are in the same state Adam and Eve were after the events of Genesis 3 from birth, and until we are born again of the Spirit. I'm not really sure what you're saying with this distinction, except that I think what you seem to be getting at here is support for annihilationism, which I hope is a misunderstanding on my part.

OK, one issue at a time.
Prior to the fall of Adam and Eve, they were neither good or evil. They were completely in the innocence of their own minds, having no understanding of "the knowledge of good and evil". That specific knowledge was not known to them inwardly until after they had partaken of it.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Lol @Earburner
What does your avatar mean.
I think of gossipers when I see it every time......sorry.....lol

 

[marks]

ok i already know that this is basically pointless as no one wants to hear, but they did have a word for “forever” fwiw, and aion was not it,
Revelation 14:11 Lexicon: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

However, not just that word appears.

eis aionas aionon, into the ages of the ages, that is, the "chunk of time" that encompasses the "chunks of time".

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

OK, one issue at a time.

Uh-oh. "Issues"... :)

Prior to the fall of Adam and Eve, they were neither good or evil. They were completely in the innocence of their own minds, having no understanding of "the knowledge of good and evil".

Disagree. Before the Fall, they only knew good. And the verb "knew" there should not be understood as mere cognitive knowledge, but a sort of intimacy with, or proneness to. Remember, God created everything good; He pronounced it all so, including man.. Adam, and then Eve. So, before the Fall, they only knew good ~ were prone to good, inclined to it, and had not sinned, had done no evil ~ but afterwards came to know good and evil, and actually became prone to evil; even the good that they were capable of was tainted with sin because of their deadness in sin and therefore evil. The latter is the human state, acquired by Adam and Eve and imputed to all human beings at conception/birth.

That specific knowledge was not known to them inwardly until after they had partaken of it.

Mmmmm... I don't really disagree with what you say here. I think what you mean by "not known" is the issue. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

As for the creation of Adam, in his body, while laying on the ground unconscious, were all the elements from the earth of His creation, and the millions of "living cells" of all different kinds, were for a short duration alive and well, except for one thing, they required oxygenated air immediately, in order to keep living. So, God breathed into him "the breath of life", aka oxygenated air, which inflated is deflated lungs, causing the pulmonary muscles of his diaphragm to start working, thus beginning his breathing cycles. And with that oxygenated air, carried by the blood stream of his pumping heart, the brain cells became rejuvenated and gave consciousness to Adam, in the capacity that God designed him. Man became a living soul.