The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

You are going in circles.
Not taking the scripture as plainly stated is trying to discern it with your own understanding.
You are doing the very thing you say those who disagree with you are doing.

Actually, I am being very scriptural by His spiritual mind that is within me.
Again, please notice the two different thoughts of God in
Rev.20[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [he] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever
[continuously, until dead].
The sentence of death is the punish-ment, and that is for ever and ever, however the punish-ing is only continuous (day and night) until death comes.
The Beast and the false prophet were already dead in the LoF. Satan was the last to be cast into it.
God is not a "sadist".
.

 

[quietthinker]

Actually, I am being very scriptural by His spiritual mind that is within me.
Again, please notice the two different thoughts of God in
Rev.20[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [he] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever
[continuously, until dead].
The sentence of death is the punish-ment, and that is for ever and ever, however the punish-ing is only continuous (day and night) until death comes.
The Beast and the false prophet were already dead in the LoF. Satan was the last to be cast into it.
God is not a "sadist".
.

confusing oneself is quiet a trick!

 

[Earburner]

confusing oneself is quiet a trick!

If you want to believe that God is a sadist, keeping the unsaved alive forever to torture them, then continue on.
"Torment"
Strong's Number - G928
Greek: βασανίζω
Transliteration: basanizō
Pronunciation: bas-an-id'-zo
Definition: From G931; to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
KJV Usage: torment (8x), pain (1x), toss (1x), vex (1x), toil (1x).
Occurs: 12
In verses: 12

 

[post]

Samuel was dead. His body turning to dust. With what was this Samuel now using to talk?

we are more than our earthly bodies.
God is spirit ((John 4:24)) -- how is it then, that God speaks?

 

[post]

Thinking the word die does not mean 'cease to exist' is believing the devils lie.

no, actually it is believing the word of God.

have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!
(Matthew 22:31-32)​

 

[post]

"Remember Lot's wife"

yes
preserved in salt, not destroyed with the cities: a pillar

is salt ever a symbol of evil in scripture?
is a pillar ever a symbol of evil in scripture?

She chose to despise her salvation in that moment, by looking back towards Sodom. She revealed where her heart really was.

she turned back for her children - her sons and daughters that Lot did not speak to - hoping to save them, with the time she had while Lot went to Zoar, for the angels had said, they cannot do anything until Lot reached that place.

she is a sign to all who will be left on earth in that day the Son is revealed to the whole world, that it is too late to try to rescue anyone.

what, you thought she was going back to certain destruction for her stuff??
to sneak past a violent mob surrounding her house intent on murdering her & much worse on sight?
to the door bolted from the inside? she's going to scale the wall and grab her xbox??

she's not an idiot; she's a mother. she wants to save her loved ones, but it's too late.
remember her; speak to your loved ones while there is time!

 

[Earburner]

yes
preserved in salt, not destroyed with the cities: a pillar

is salt ever a symbol of evil in scripture?
is a pillar ever a symbol of evil in scripture?



she turned back for her children - her sons and daughters that Lot did not speak to - hoping to save them, with the time she had while Lot went to Zoar, for the angels had said, they cannot do anything until Lot reached that place.

she is a sign to all who will be left on earth in that day the Son is revealed to the whole world, that it is too late to try to rescue anyone.

what, you thought she was going back to certain destruction for her stuff??
to sneak past a violent mob surrounding her house intent on murdering her & much worse on sight?
to the door bolted from the inside? she's going to scale the wall and grab her xbox??

she's not an idiot; she's a mother. she wants to save her loved ones, but it's too late.
remember her; speak to your loved ones while there is time!

Lot had only two children, both were his daughters.
He had no sons, but he did have two "sons-in-law" through marriage by each of his daughters.
In the hurry of it all, for Lot and his family to escape, the "sons-in-law" did choose to stay behind by mocking Lot and his warning. Hence the angels literally led Lot, his wife and two daughters out of Sodom to get them moving to safety.

There was no one else of family blood, who was forgotten or left behind, that Lot's wife should fret and worry over, to cause her to disobey the warning of the angel: "Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed."

Unfortunately, Lot's wife disobeyed and lost her life.
She is no martyr, but rather a reminding pillar of disobedience to the Lord's offer of physical salvation and safety for her.

 

[post]

Lot had only two children, both were his daughters.
He had no sons, but he did have two "sons-in-law" through marriage by each of his daughters.

Abraham stops at 10 when he pleads with God in Genesis 18, because Abraham has 10 family members there.
Lot, his wife and their 8 children

Lot has two unmarried daughters at home with him who are saved from the destruction. ((Genesis 19:15, 'your daughters here with you' as opposed to your other daughters elsewhere))
Lot speaks to his sons-in-law but not their wives, his married daughters ((Genesis 19:14).
the angels tell him to go speak to the rest of his family not with him, "sons-in-law, sons, daughters" indicating that he has at least 2 sons which are not sons by marriage.

that's 8 children. 4 daughters, two who are not married and live with him & two who are married and live with their husbands.
2 sons and 2 sons-in-law.

Lot only spoke to his sons-in-law outside of his household, not his daughters and not his actual sons.

that is who their mother turned back for.

 

[post]

Unfortunately, Lot's wife disobeyed and lost her life.
She is no martyr, but rather a reminding pillar of disobedience to the Lord's offer of physical salvation and safety for her.

ha!

Lot was disobedient every step of the way.

the angels wanted to stay in the town square, and he argued with them instead of submitting to their express word. ((19:2-3))
the angels told him to go to his children but he only went to his sons-in-law, who were not his own blood. ((19:12-14))
the angels told him to take his wife and his daughters 'who were with him' and leave, but instead he hesitated, such that they themselves had to forcibly drag him out of the wicked city. ((19:15-16))
Lot was commanded to flee to the mountains, but he contradicted the commandment, refusing to obey God's orders to flee from the evil, and wanted to go make his home in yet another one of the wicked cities that God intended to destroy. ((19:17-21))
they told him to hurry but it takes him half the day -- they dragged him out of Sodom by the hand at dawn ((19:15)) but it isn't until noon that he makes it to Zoar ((19:23))

so if you've got Lot's wife losing her salvation because she looked over her shoulder once,
how does Lot who was constantly far more disobedient get saved??
i'll tell you how: same as his wife and the two daughters that still lived with him are saved. he's dragged out against his will because of the mercy of God on him.
and when he immediately disobediently seeks to go right back into another cesspool, God has mercy on that whole city for his sake.

 

[post]

He had no sons

so your view is that the angels of God are ignorant?

Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city — take them out of this place!
(Genesis 19:12)​

 

[quietthinker]

If you want to believe that God is a sadist, keeping the unsaved alive forever to torture them, then continue on.
"Torment"
Strong's Number - G928
Greek: βασανίζω
Transliteration: basanizō
Pronunciation: bas-an-id'-zo
Definition: From G931; to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
KJV Usage: torment (8x), pain (1x), toss (1x), vex (1x), toil (1x).
Occurs: 12
In verses: 12

be careful how you hear.

 

[MatthewG]

Hebrew Hyperbole? - to first post.

 

[Earburner]

so your view is that the angels of God are ignorant?

Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city — take them out of this place!
(Genesis 19:12)​

You bring up a good point. But now I am thinking that there is more here than meets the eye.

Gen. 19[15] And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Again, and quite literally, Lot had no sons of his own, however he could have had grand-sons through the marriages of his two daughters.
But, since the sons-in-law mocked Lot's warning, no way were the supposed grand-sons going to be leaving Sodom with their mothers (Lot's two daughters).

Now, if there were grand-sons, I am challenged by the ability of Lot's two daughters, that they could leave their own sons behind, and go off to Zoar with their father Lot.
Such a dire situation is very telling of what Jesus means for us to do, in our following Him through faith.
Matt.10[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

By the Grace of God, the only ones selected/chosen by God to be spared, were Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. No others.

Unfortunately, though selected by God, Lot's wife didn't make it. Edit: just like Judas Iscariot.
As you previously had stated, it could be that Lot's wife turned to look back, not because of any hoped for "sons" of her own, but rather because of her hope and love being in her grand-sons, which was more than she had for God.

 

[post]

thy two daughters, which are here;

"which are here"

married daughters don't continue to live in their father's house. unmarried ones do.
the angels, IMO, know the family of the man they are sent to save - that's why they say "sons"

my view adds up to 10 and explains Abraham's pleading with God, why he stopped at 10 -- and it fits the scripture.

a point about the sons & sons-in-law, it's "all the men of the city, young and old" who surround Lot's house.
does this include his sons?

 

[Earburner]

"which are here"

married daughters don't continue to live in their father's house. unmarried ones do.
the angels, IMO, know the family of the man they are sent to save - that's why they say "sons"

my view adds up to 10 and explains Abraham's pleading with God, why he stopped at 10 -- and it fits the scripture.

a point about the sons & sons-in-law, it's "all the men of the city, young and old" who surround Lot's house.
does this include his sons?

I think we are in a "Grey area".
I understand your position, but I am concerned that we both are putting it all on the knife edge of supposition. Because of the inaccuracy of historical data, concerning how many daughters of Lot there were, there isn't much hope for a solid conclusion about the total number of daughters.
As for immediate sons to Lot, I still hold that he had none.
Thanks for your discussion on this topic.
Lot's daughters - Wikipedia

 

[Earburner]

be careful how you hear.

I know how I hear.
1John.4[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
[16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

 

[Earburner]

"which are here"

married daughters don't continue to live in their father's house. unmarried ones do.
the angels, IMO, know the family of the man they are sent to save - that's why they say "sons"

my view adds up to 10 and explains Abraham's pleading with God, why he stopped at 10 -- and it fits the scripture.

a point about the sons & sons-in-law, it's "all the men of the city, young and old" who surround Lot's house.
does this include his sons?

Gen. 19[15] And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Instead adding in two additional daughters, making four, could it be that the two only daughters "left all", due to believing and adhering to the message of their father Lot, about the soon coming and total destruction of Sodom, and therefore were now with Lot and not their mocking husbands?

 

[Earburner]

so if you've got Lot's wife losing her salvation because she looked over her shoulder once,
how does Lot who was constantly far more disobedient get saved??

It was the one warning, if not obeyed, had immediate consequences: "lest thou be consumed".

What did the eyes of Lot's wife see?
Ans. God the Father Himself, who is a consuming fire, whereby just looking upon Him is immediate death.
Exod.33[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

 

[Jack]

I think Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in the eternal fire that Jesus warned of.

 

[quietthinker]

I think Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in the eternal fire that Jesus warned of.

I think heaven will be filled with people who never heard the name of Jesus :)