The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not denying what Peter said. I am denying your wrong interpretation of that 2 Peter 3:10 Scripture.

Why don't you tell me exactly how that scripture should be interpreted then? I certainly would never just take your word for it. Break 2 Peter 3:3-13 for me and tell me how you can reconcile what is written there with your view.

Why do you skirt the Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 Scripture which reveals Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem?

Acts 1 certainly says no such thing. Him coming back in like manner as He left has nothing to do with Him coming back to the location from which He left. This shows how you are willing to manipulate scripture to say what you want it to say.

I have already explained to you why having a futurist interpretation of Zechariah 14 causes a number of contradictions with other scripture, such as the fact that it contradicts what Jesus said in John 4:19-24 about worshiping God in spirit and in truth rather than having to go to Jerusalem to do so and the fact that it contradicts scriptures like Hebrews 8-10 which do not allow for the possibility of animal sacrifices to be reinstated.

Do you not even care that you blatantly twist Acts 1 to fit your doctrine or that you interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts other scripture?

If Peter meant the earth will be completely destroyed, like turned into some asteroid belt, then Christ's feet would not have any place to touch down upon like the Zechariah 14 Scripture says about His future return!

Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

So, despite the fact that the NT sheds light on OT prophecies, you have decided that Peter didn't really know what he was talking about and you understand Zechariah 14 better than he did. How arrogant do you need to be to draw that conclusion?

There is more than one judgment.

No, there is not. You acknowledge yourself that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time because of what Jesus said in John 5:28-29. It indicates that they are judged right after being resurrected, which is why Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 talk about people either being resurrected unto everlasting life or to damnation, shame and everlasting contempt.

Why did Jesus always refer only to "the day of judgment" if there is more than one judgment? That is not something that Jesus ever taught, that's for sure. He taught that all people will be judged at the same time. That can clearly be seen in John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46, but also can be seen in the parable of the wheat and tares and also this parable:

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Can you see here how Jesus taught that all of the wicked and just will be gathered at the same time and then judged? Why do you try to say there is more than one judgment when Jesus taught that all people will be judged at the same time?

The separation of Christ's sheep from the goats is one judgment that happens on the day of Christ's coming when He sits on His inherited earthly throne from David. This judgment will set apart the two groups, with the goats put outside the gates of the beloved city per Rev.22:14-15 while only those in Christ will be allowed inside the gates of the beloved city and partake of the Tree of Life. That place of separation Jesus called the "outer darkness".

The text does not say what you are saying. You clearly do not accept what our great God and Savior Jesus Christ taught, which is shameful. He said that the goats (unbelievers) will be "cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that time, which corresponds with Revelation 20:15. He did not say they will be "put outside the gates of the beloved city" as you are trying to say. I guess, technically, they will be put outside the gates of the beloved city, but that is because they will be cast into the lake of fire.

And then there is the FINAL GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT after Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect. That final judgment will determine who all goes into the "lake of fire" as the "second death". Only at the "second death" is the abode of hell and the concept of death destroyed. That does NOT happen on the day of Christ's future return, but after His "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

Total nonsense. How does this verse, which is said to happen at His second coming, differ from what is described in Revelation 20:15?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

That verse is clearly talking about the same thing as this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He should learn how to properly word his thoughts then, and not say things at the 'start' of his paragraph like ...

"We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ...."

That is saying "We do believe that..." what that Rev.19 and 20 Scripture says as written. What then is written in those Rev.19 and Rev.20 Scriptures? Rev.19 is about the day of Christ's future return, and Rev.20 is about AFTER Christ has returned and begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect.

LOL. Are you somehow not aware that he is an amillennialist? You do know that, right? Therefore, you should have known what he meant and that he wouldn't say something that would contradict his own beliefs.

And Brethren in Christ who actually DO... listen to Christ in His Word:

The fact that Lord Jesus will begin a "thousand years" reign with His elect on the day of His future return is easy... to grasp per the Rev.20 Scripture.

You agree with Amils and disagree with all other Premils that all of the dead will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Jesus indicated that the wicked will be resurrected into "damnation" and Daniel indicated that they will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt". At His second coming, the wicked will be "cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41).

So, tell me, with all of the above in mind, when the supposed future thousand years ends who exactly do you think will be the ones from around the world who number "as the sand of the sea" that oppose "the camp of the saints"?

The order of events in Rev.20 are easy to KNOW that those events are set for after Jesus has returned, and is reigning over the STILL EXISTING WICKED, even over Satan who is not destroyed yet then.

Still existing wicked? How is that possible? Who are these wicked exactly who you think would still exist at that point and why would Jesus allow them to still exist, keeping in mind that scripture teaches that Jesus will take vengeance on the wicked when He comes again (2 Thess 1:7-10)?

Rev 20:1-9
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The deceived today actually think Satan is already 'bound'. Yet Apostle Peter warned in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan roams like lion seeking whom he may devour, which means still in THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME. So the above is definitely not a destruction of Satan event! It is a temporary lockup of Satan on the day when Jesus returns, because ONLY then, when Jesus returns and Satan is then 'bound', will 1 Peter 5:8 no longer apply. It's common sense, easy.

Amils do not interpret his binding the way premils do. It has nothing to do with Satan being completely incapacitated, as premils falsely believe. You read 1 Peter 5:8 and stop there without looking at verse 9.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

You act like Satan is some unstoppable force, but notice that we are told to resist him. And what if we do? He must then flee from us.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

You focus only on what Satan is able to do and ignore what he is not able to do, which is have any influence over us if we resist him. Was that the case in OT times? No! Look at the kind of power and influence he had in OT times before Christ's death...

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Can you see here that Satan "had the power of death" in OT times but "through death" Jesus took that away from him so that many of those "who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" could be set free? That is what the binding of Satan is about. Satan no longer has the power of death and Jesus now holds the keys of hell (Hades) and death (Rev 1:18). Setting people free who were previously in bondage to Satan because of him having the power of death and holding them in slavery to the fear of death because of having no hope of eternal life. But, Jesus changed all that. He bound the strong man to spoil his goods and his house and He brought the hope of eternal life to the world through His sacrifice.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Premils don't recognize that the binding of Satan is referenced in scripture in more than just Revelation 20. They think it's an entirely new concept introduced in Revelation 20, but it's not.

Furthermore, note that above phrase in 'red'. Has that already happened today, Satan no longer deceiving the nations today? NO, that has not yet happened. So that is yet another marker to show us that the UNSAVED nations and WICKED and Satan, will still exist after the day of Christ's future return.

All that certainly messes with man's false Amill theory which wrongly tries to claim God's new heavens and a new earth Eternity begins on the day of Christ's return. Satan has to be destroyed, along with all the wicked, and the abode of hell, and the concept of death, before God's NHNE Eternity will start.

Once again you have mispresented the Amill doctrine. Amills don't claim that we inherit the new heavens and new earth until the judgment is over first. We claim that the judgment occurs right after He returns and the judgment occurs in eternity. It does not take place in the realm of time in heaven or on earth (see Rev 20:11).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who Jesus gathers which reign with Him are the "first resurrection". These "dead" represent the spiritually dead without Christ, and the deceived souls that Jesus and His elect will reign over for that "thousand years."

This is utter nonsense. The rest of the dead are dead in the same way that those that were referenced who have part in the first resurrection are dead, which is physically. They, along with those who have part in the first resurrection, are not bodily resurrected until after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) ends.

Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection, so having part in the first resurrection is to spiritually have part in His resurrection. That's what you don't understand.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Having part in the first resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The "resurrection of damnation", the raised wicked dead, which Jesus mentioned that happens on the day of His coming are included in these "dead" souls (See John 5:28-29). They will stand in judgment throughout that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect.

Total nonsense! It says they are in "the resurrection of damnation" because they will be damned at the judgment that occurs right after Jesus comes with His angels. They are the goats who will be "cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" right after Jesus comes with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46).

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is first mention of the "second death". That is about the future death of one's spirit/soul, not another flesh body death. Just because that comparison between these "dead" being still subject to that future "second death" and still existing during Christ's future reign over them, and with His faithful saints that overcame the "great tribulation", that is plenty enough to KNOW these events will be LITERAL, and not some mumbo-jumbo spiritual philosophy of Satan's little workers here on earth today.

Tell me, does the second death have any power over you or any Christian now? Does it have power over any of the dead in Christ now? No, it doe not. So, that should tell you about the timing of having part in the first resurrection. Also, it says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ". Are you somehow not aware that you and all believers are priests of God and of Christ right now? That is what John indicated in Revelation 1:5-6 where he said that Jesus "HAS MADE us a kingdom of priests" and Peter also indicated that by calling the church "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). Why do you not take things like this into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Instead, you just cherry pick scripture and draw conclusions without taking ALL of scripture into consideration.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

That is a reference to the future Jerusalem as that "camp of the saints", on earth.

Absolutely wrong. How can you think that a future earthly Jerusalem could possibly be called "the beloved city"? That's nonsense. The beloved city is clearly the "the holy city" and "the city of the living God", which is the heavenly new Jerusalem that we are all part of spiritually even now.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The new heavenly Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). It represents the church which is the true "camp of the saints". Revelation 20:7-9 symbolically represents the global opposition to the church that occurs just before the second coming of Christ, which comes about after the mass falling away and rise in wickedness that both Jesus and Paul said would occur before Christ's return (Matt 24:9-13, 2 Thess 2:1-12).

 

[Davy]

Why don't you tell me exactly how that scripture should be interpreted then? I certainly would never just take your word for it.

First of all, just what is Peter talking about in the 2 Peter 3:5-7 verses? He was pointing to previous 'destructions' upon this earth by God using a flood of waters. Did those waters TOTALLY DESTROY the earth back then? No, of course not, we're still here with the earth. The only difference with God's future destruction involving this earth is that this next time, He is going to use His "consuming fire". And Paul in the latter part of Hebrews 12 reveals that future destruction will simply remove man's works off this earth so that those things which cannot... be shaken, may remain...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

I can kind of tell you've never actually read that Hebrews 12 Scripture before. That "Yet once more" shaking of the earth phrase points to a PREVIOUS SHAKING OF THIS EARTH which God did. That gives us a strong clue as to that another shaking of this earth He is going to do in the future, which is about that 2 Peter 3:10 event.

In 2 Peter 3:10, the KJV word "elements" does NOT mean the list of matter elements of the atomic weights table. Instead per the Greek it means 'an orderly arrangement', i.e., a world time...

NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):
KJV - elements, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The above actually isn't the greatest Bible evidence that Peter did not mean God is going to completely destroy this earth. Lord Jesus' FUTURE REIGN on earth with His future return to the MOUNT OF OLIVES is stronger Bible proof this earth is not going to be totally destroyed, but only its surface wiped clean of man's works by God's "consuming fire" (Acts 1; Zechariah 14).

 

[Davy]

Acts 1 certainly says no such thing. Him coming back in like manner as He left has nothing to do with Him coming back to the location from which He left. This shows how you are willing to manipulate scripture to say what you want it to say.

Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 both... confirm that Jesus's 2nd coming will be back to earth on the Mount of Olives where He ascended from per Acts 1.

Just where... Christ returns to on earth per Acts 1 is SUPPORTED by His LITERAL return per the Zechariah 14 Scripture...

Zech 14:4
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
KJV

You should be careful not to lie against God's written Word above, just to keep your false traditions of men.

 

[Davy]

I have already explained to you why having a futurist interpretation of Zechariah 14 causes a number of contradictions with other scripture, such as the fact that it contradicts what Jesus said in John 4:19-24 about worshiping God in spirit and in truth rather than having to go to Jerusalem to do so and the fact that it contradicts scriptures like Hebrews 8-10 which do not allow for the possibility of animal sacrifices to be reinstated.

You really don't know what man's silly theory of Futurism is about, do you? I'm not a Futurist. You talk like Futurism means 'anyone' who still recognizes there is unfulfilled Bible prophecy that still exists! That idea is idiotic, because it would mean those reject the FUTURE prophetic coming by Lord Jesus Christ to gather us!

That kind of stupid thinking is actually more allied with men's silly doctrines of Full-Preterism and Historicism! Which one are YOU following?

I believe what God's Word teaches AS WRITTEN. You obviously do not.

So read and heed the Zechariah 14 Scripture as written about Jesus' FUTURE return on the "day of the Lord" instead of MOCKING that Scripture.

 

[Davy]

LOL. Are you somehow not aware that he is an amillennialist? You do know that, right? Therefore, you should have known what he meant and that he wouldn't say something that would contradict his own beliefs.


You agree with Amils and disagree with all other Premils that all of the dead will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Jesus indicated that the wicked will be resurrected into "damnation" and Daniel indicated that they will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt". At His second coming, the wicked will be "cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41).

....

Just more FODDER above brethren from false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan". When you discover someone who MOCKS God's written Word, and REFUSES to agree with what is actually WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD, and instead tries various strategies to TWIST one's simple QUOTING of Bible Scripture proof, when the written Scripture itself makes its meaning clear, then that points to one of those under the influence of the "synagogue of Satan".

What did Apostle Paul say about those who come into the Church and mouth against God's Word like they do?


Apostle Paul speaking of the corruptness of some of his own believing brethren of the Jews...

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, "The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies."

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
KJV

 

[Davy]

This is utter nonsense. The rest of the dead are dead in the same way that those that were referenced who have part in the first resurrection are dead, which is physically. They, along with those who have part in the first resurrection, are not bodily resurrected until after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) ends.

....

Actually just more NONSENSE from a Bible Scripture DENIER ABOVE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First of all, just what is Peter talking about in the 2 Peter 3:5-7 verses? He was pointing to previous 'destructions' upon this earth by God using a flood of waters. Did those waters TOTALLY DESTROY the earth back then? No, of course not, we're still here with the earth.

Davy, you waste so much time making straw man arguments. I never said that Peter taught that the earth will be annihilated. Peter did make it clear that fire will come down upon the entire earth and he said despite that, according to the promise of Christ's second coming, we still look forward to new heavens and a new earth. That means that despite the earth's surface all being burned up, this earth will be renewed by fire, resulting in the new (renewed) earth. It will be renewed by fire when Jesus returns like it was renewed by water in Noah's day.

To think that anyone can survive that fire when it comes down on the entire earth is foolish. That would make what Paul said about the same event in 1 Thess 5:2-3 false. But, Paul made it clear that those who are in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" that "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day Christ returns as a thief in the night. You contradict that by saying that some of them shall somehow escape. No, they will not. Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers when He comes (2 Thess 1:7-10).

The only difference with God's future destruction involving this earth is that this next time, He is going to use His "consuming fire".

No, it will be literal fire. That's why Peter directly compared that future event to the flood in Noah's day. They are the same type of events in the sense of both involving global physical destruction.

I can kind of tell you've never actually read that Hebrews 12 Scripture before.

I can 100% tell that you are wrong and have no idea of what you're talking about. The fire that Peter referred to is directly contrasted with the water used to destroy the earth in Noah's day, so you are not accepting what Peter taught in context.

In 2 Peter 3:10, the KJV word "elements" does NOT mean the list of matter elements of the atomic weights table.

LOL. Yes, it does mean that. That's like saying that the heavens and the earth that Peter also said would be dissolved are not the literal heavens and earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually just more NONSENSE from a Bible Scripture DENIER ABOVE.

More empty words from Davy that he can't back up. You noticeably didn't even try to back up your words. Because you know you can't. You just believe what you want to believe and can't defend your beliefs convincingly with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just more FODDER above brethren from false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan".

Good ol' Davy. Once again condemning people just because they disagree with his end times doctrine. Just remember that you will be judged using the same measure that you are judging me.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

When you discover someone who MOCKS God's written Word, and REFUSES to agree with what is actually WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD, and instead tries various strategies to TWIST one's simple QUOTING of Bible Scripture proof, when the written Scripture itself makes its meaning clear, then that points to one of those under the influence of the "synagogue of Satan".

You are describing yourself here except I would not claim that you are in the synagogue of Satan, which applies only to those who are not saved.

What did Apostle Paul say about those who come into the Church and mouth against God's Word like they do?

I'm not doing that, so you are completely out of control here.

Apostle Paul speaking of the corruptness of some of his own believing brethren of the Jews...

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, "The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies."

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
KJV

This passage does not apply to someone like me who loves and serves God like I do and who is sharing his interpretation of some of God's Word on the Internet. I do not deny God with my works like it says these people do! It describes them as "being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". That does not describe me at all. How am I "being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"? Just because I have a different interpretation of Revelation 20 than you do? That's insane. You don't even know me, yet you think you can judge me. Stop acting like your are God or God will have to deal with you trying to do His job.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 both... confirm that Jesus's 2nd coming will be back to earth on the Mount of Olives where He ascended from per Acts 1.

Where does Acts 1 say such a thing? You're all talk. It says no such thing. It says He will descend from heaven in like manner as He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily. Nowhere in Acts 1 does it say that He would return to th eplace from where He left. You are badly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

Just where... Christ returns to on earth per Acts 1 is SUPPORTED by His LITERAL return per the Zechariah 14 Scripture...

Zech 14:4
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
KJV

You should be careful not to lie against God's written Word above, just to keep your false traditions of men.

You are the one who needs to be careful with your judgmental attitude and your reckless treatment of scripture. I already have shown you how your interpretation of Zechariah 14 contradicts other scriptures like John 4:19-24 which says that people were no longer required to go to Jerusalem to worship God but now are required to worship Him in spirit and in truth. And it contradicts Hebrews 8-10 which says that Jesus put and end to animal sacrifices and offerings by way of His own "once for all" sacrifice. Why do you ignore things like that when interpreting Zechariah 14? Why are you willing to interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts other scripture?

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ, beware of the "tares" that Lord Jesus revealed in His parable of the "tares" of field, per Matthew 13.

God's Word reveals that there are certain ones that crept in among Israel long ago, which were ordained to the condemnation of working against Christ (Jude 4). Peter even said this about them...

2 Peter 2:1-3
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
KJV

2 Peter 2:12-22
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You really don't know what man's silly theory of Futurism is about, do you? I'm not a Futurist.

LOL. You are a comedian.

You talk like Futurism means 'anyone' who still recognizes there is unfulfilled Bible prophecy that still exists!

Nonsense. They is more than one variation of futurism. You are thinking I'm calling you a dispensationalist, but I'm not. But, you ARE a futurist. Saying otherwise just makes you look ridiculous since you clearly are one.

That idea is idiotic, because it would mean those reject the FUTURE prophetic coming by Lord Jesus Christ to gather us!

Yes, that idea is idiotic which is why only full preterists believe such an idiotic idea.

That kind of stupid thinking is actually more allied with men's silly doctrines of Full-Preterism and Historicism! Which one are YOU following?

Neither one. You waste so much time talking pointless nonsense. Don't you get tired of that?

I believe what God's Word teaches AS WRITTEN. You obviously do not.

LOL. I obviously do. You don't accept 2 Peter 3:3-13 as written, for example. You clearly twist it to fit your doctrine.

So read and heed the Zechariah 14 Scripture as written about Jesus' FUTURE return on the "day of the Lord" instead of MOCKING that Scripture.

I will not read and heed it as you understand it. I will not interpret it in such a way that contradicts other scripture as you do. You are completely reckless with scripture. You should never interpret any verse or passage in such a way that contradicts any other verse or passage, but you obviously don't care about that. Instead, you cherry pick certain passages and then you twist the rest of scripture to make it agree with your false interpretation of those passages.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Where did you get that doctrine of men from, your Church, or just someone you've been listening to? I'm not going to suppose that you came up with that kind of idea.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded IS DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

This is speaking of not abiding in Christ as in separation from the Lord in real time.... sure, later there is the total separation from the Lord when a carnal minded person dies in that state of still being separated from the Lord as in.... not walking in agreement with Him meaning they are instead walking in agreement with the devil.

Everything produces after it';s own kind as the Lord tells us in Genesis... lucifer was the first to become separated from the Lord and those following in his footsteps (carnal minded) will get lucifer's reward

I wouldn't expect those who don't accept the whole counsel of God to grasp what the Lord is saying in His Word.

It will be a literal... destruction of their spirit with soul.

More false doctrine that one should REPENT of which of course those being deceived by annialationism won't do having already proclaimed Jesus as being a liar!

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

I wouldn't expect those who don't accept the whole counsel of God to grasp what the Lord is saying in His Word.... and so they continue to teach doctrines of demons.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not true per what is actually written in God's Word.

Well, not according to your understanding of what's written there, but true none the less.

Where you get that above idea is from men's Amill doctrines...

Okay, well, where you get your ideas is from men's Post-mill doctrines.

I have already well shown how the Rev.20 chapter events are post-2nd coming by Christ...

...according to post-millennialism, but... <smile>

Thus the false doctrine of men you follow, that claims Rev.19 and Rev.20 are the same events is just a show of Biblical illiteracy.

Okay, well, I say that not seeing Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 as different accounts of the same event is a show of... well, not "Biblical illiteracy," but Biblical misunderstanding. It's just improper understanding. And as I've shown you ~ and you apparently turn a blind eye to ~ in the larger picture, it's a misunderstanding on the part of pre- and post-millennialists, of not just Revelation 19 and 20, but the greater structure of John's Revelation.

Jesus will begin... His future "thousand years" on the day of His future return, at His 2nd coming...

Nope. The "thousand years," God's millennium, will have ended then. God will have completed the building of His Israel ~ which Paul is very clear on in Romans 11:25-26 and Ephesians 2:19-22 ~ and this will bring the millennium to a close, and then Jesus will return.

, as God's Word shows in that Rev.20 chapter...

Yes, as I say immediately above.

You cannot change it either...

I'm most certainly not. I am trying to change the way you understand it ~ to the correct way, of course ~ but I'm certainly not changing Scripture, which, as we both know, "stands/endures forever" (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25).

...Satan is NOT bound yet today...

In the context of Scripture ~ and in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 12:29 and Mark 3:27, yes, he is. Rather than just say "no," why don't you try offering a different take on what Jesus says there. Maybe, Davy, you'll convince me otherwise.

...so it's obvious those who think he is have not read Apostle Peter's warning, which I referred to in my post by the way...

Yes, taking it out of Peter's own context. You certainly did.

Amazing how you DENY that Scripture.

<eye roll> Amazing how you continue to make that accusation, when what I'm denying is not the Scripture itself but merely your erroneous understanding of it.

Why should anyone listen to someone like you who denies so much written Bible Scripture?

Nobody is denying Scripture, Davy. Nobody.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

That's just making excuses.

Excuses for... what...??? LOL!

Rev.20:3 is clear that when Satan is bound in chains in his pit prison, that HE CANNOT DECEIVE THE NATIONS anymore while bound.

Right, and right now, Davy, he cannot. He is completely bound from deceiving the nations, meaning he is absolutely unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations. Thus Jesus's mandate at the end of Matthew's gospel to His disciples, and us by extension, what we call the Great Commission, to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)" (Matthew 28:19-20).

Satan being able to still deceive today means he is NOT YET BOUND.

His being bound does not woodenly mean he is not able to do anything, Davy. He can still exert influence, and entice people to sin, and that he certainly does. This is why Paul exhorts us to "put on the whole armor of God, that (we) may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil... we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places... (to) take up the whole armor of God, that (we) may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm" (Ephesians 6:11-13).

Thus Peter did not lie, as much as you claim he was lying...

<eye roll>

You apparently have not read that Rev.20:3 Scripture either!

<eye roll>

...The "great tribulation" is timed to occur PRIOR to Christ's future 2nd coming...

I have agreed to this many times....

...which AFTER His second coming is when His reign over all nations will begin.

...but not this. The time of tribulation is now, Davy. The time of tribulation ~ of trouble, suffering, and trial ~ is now. I could make so many citations, here, but this one should be sufficient; Jesus says to His disciples (and to us by extension), in John 16:33, "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." And this is Christ's millennial reign, which is from heaven, seated at the right hand of God, and this is prior to His second coming... now.

That... is what is written in God's Word, not the silliness you follow.

<eye roll>

You need to LEARN how to properly quote someone. Making incomplete sentences out of my words is NOT how to quote; you show the working of an uneducated amateur.

<eye roll>

The fact that Rev.20:4-5 is declaring those saints who overcame the "great tribulation" represent the "first resurrection" ought to reveal to you that the subject time is AFTER Christ's 2nd coming, and the START of His reign with those elect over the nations.

So read it again, Davy, but in the context of what Paul says at the end of Romans 8:

"If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Christ has overcome the world, Davy.

Yes they will 'stand in judgment'

Well yes, they will stand for judgment, meaning they will certainly be subjected to it, but this is not what Psalm 1 is saying, Davy. Psalm 1 is saying they ~ the wicked, those who are not in Christ ~ will not stand in the judgment, meaning they will be judged unrighteous and will thus fall in the judgment... they will be on the wrong side of the judgment. Come on, man, you're smarter than that, I know. <smile>

That stand in judgment is an expression, in case you are not aware. It means still being subject to the "second death".

It's not just an expression, Davy. Again, according to Psalm 1, the wicked will not be in the congregation of the righteous and thus will not stand in the Judgment, which means that as a result of the final Judgment, they will then be subject to ~ and will go into ~ this "second death" spoken of in Revelation 20:14-15. Goodness gracious. Open your eyes, man. Open your eyes.

Or didn't you realize those of the "resurrection of damnation" are raised from the dead and are NOT saved by Christ?

Yes, we agree on that... Goodness gracious.

The Zadok of Ezek.44 represent Christ's elect who reign with "a rod of iron" with Jesus over the unsaved in that time after His future return. It will be their job to teach the unsaved...

LOL! No, because the unsaved will have departed... into the "lake of fire," into "outer darkness."

...that judgement above is NOT upon Christ's faithful elect Church in that future Millennium time. It will be upon the UNSAVED, for it is the unsaved who will "stand in judgment", meaning still liable to perish at the future "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev.20.

All will be judged, even the righteous. We see this very clearly both in Matthew 26:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. And this will occur after the millennium has ended, and after Christ's return and defeat of Satan. Many will be judged righteous (those in Christ), and many will not (those not in Christ). The former, having been resurrected to eternal life, will enter into the New Heaven and New Earth, and the latter, having been resurrected to judgment, will enter into that judgment, and there they will be for eternity. <shudder>

I WILL... see Christ's FAITHFUL Church as that FUTURE "camp of the saints" on earth at the "beloved city" (new Jerusalem) in that FUTURE TIME.

Well, suit yourself...

That event has NOT HAPPENED YET TODAY. And it is ignorant to think it is already manifest today! ...how... could that ever... be considered as the fulfilled "camp of the saints" of Rev.20?? That's just silliness!

It's not fully manifest, yet, Davy. The beloved city ~ which is made up of people, Davy... we are the beloved city ~ is being built, even as we speak. It's designer and builder is God. And one great day it will be manifest in full. Your thinking on this is far, far too small.

And it shows that the devil's children who came up with those Amill false doctrines don't care what God's Word says as written, but are determined to serve the devil instead! Thus you need to come out of confusion, for the devil is manipulating you with your following the devil's false doctrines on these matters...

<eye roll>

And I really do wish... I could in like respond with a 'grace and peace to you' too, but I will not as long as you keep doctrines designed by the devil which have deceived you away from keeping God's Word as written.

<eye roll> You could still have a bit of grace. Christians are called to do that no matter what; that's what it means to be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer, which James is very clear about... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not a Futurist.

You absolutely are. Pre-millennial believers and post-millennial believers are all futurists. You all believe that the totality of God's millennium of Revelation 20 is yet future. That is not the case:

• Premillennialists believe Jesus will physically return to the Earth before the millennium ~ a yet future event of course.
• Postmillennialists (you) believe Jesus will physically return to the Earth after the millennium, which is true, but post-millennialists, like pre-millennialists, believe God's millennium has not yet begun.

So, regarding the millennium itself, both premillennialists and postmillennialists are futurist. That's basically due to the same thing ~ a misunderstanding of the relationship between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20... and in the bigger picture a misunderstanding of the structure of the whole of John's Revelation. In a nutshell, Revelation is a series of seven concurrent visions; the visions are all of the same period, the last days ~ this current age. Each is from a different viewpoint, though, and each progressively focuses more and more on the end and Christ's return, which is not actually seen until the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and the seventh (Revelation 20;1-Revelation 21:8, with the events of Revelation 20:7-10 a retelling of the events depicted in Revelation 19:11-21, the return of Christ). Christ's first coming, Satan's binding and God's ensuing millennium all precede the return of Christ (Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10).

I believe what God's Word teaches AS WRITTEN.

All Christians think they do... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded IS DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

This is speaking of not abiding in Christ as in separation from the Lord in real time.... sure, later there is the total separation from the Lord when a carnal minded person dies in that state of still being separated from the Lord as in.... not walking in agreement with Him meaning they are instead walking in agreement with the devil.

Everything produces after it';s own kind as the Lord tells us in Genesis... lucifer was the first to become separated from the Lord and those following in his footsteps (carnal minded) will get lucifer's reward

I wouldn't expect those who don't accept the whole counsel of God to grasp what the Lord is saying in His Word.

Oh.... I get the idea by Paul about death, which is pretty much what you explained, being 'born again' vs. being subject to the "second death" of perdition in the future "lake of fire". It's this "second death" idea that I was referring to, because flesh death is what most think Paul was referring when he was pointing to the "second death". It's not completely over for one's soul at death of the flesh.

More false doctrine that one should REPENT of which of course those being deceived by annialationism won't do having already proclaimed Jesus as being a liar!

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

I wouldn't expect those who don't accept the whole counsel of God to grasp what the Lord is saying in His Word.... and so they continue to teach doctrines of demons.

You failed to include what the Psalms 37 Scripture declares, showing that you are actually the one skirting the Scriptures about the future "second death" of perdition into the "lake of fire". Even the Rev.14 example says it is the SMOKE of their torment that rises forever, which can mean 'after the fact' of their destruction, like ashes where there is nothing left to burn. God's Word declares that the devil will be turned to ashes by being cast into the future "lake of fire", have you realized that Scripture yet?

 

[Davy]

You absolutely are. Pre-millennial believers and post-millennial believers are all futurists. You all believe that the totality of God's millennium of Revelation 20 is yet future. That is not the case:

• Premillennialists believe Jesus will physically return to the Earth before the millennium ~ a yet future event of course.
• Postmillennialists (you) believe Jesus will physically return to the Earth after the millennium, which is true, but post-millennialists, like pre-millennialists, believe God's millennium has not yet begun.

So, regarding the millennium itself, both premillennialists and postmillennialists are futurist. That's basically due to the same thing ~ a misunderstanding of the relationship between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20... and in the bigger picture a misunderstanding of the structure of the whole of John's Revelation. In a nutshell, Revelation is a series of seven concurrent visions; the visions are all of the same period, the last days ~ this current age. Each is from a different viewpoint, though, and each progressively focuses more and more on the end and Christ's return, which is not actually seen until the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and the seventh (Revelation 20;1-Revelation 21:8, with the events of Revelation 20:7-10 a retelling of the events depicted in Revelation 19:11-21, the return of Christ). Christ's first coming, Satan's binding and God's ensuing millennium all precede the return of Christ (Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10).


All Christians think they do... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

The above reveals just how uneducated some Amills are....

One of the main doctrines of FUTURISM is belief in a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. That theory I do NOT believe. I am Post-trib.

FUTURISM does NOT ... mean someone who is Premill. Those who say so show their illiteracy of not only Bible Scripture, but also of Christian history. The 1st century Church fathers were ALL... Premillennialists, believing that Christ's "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 begins on the day of His return, which actually, is what is written in God's Word.

Man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory did not begin until the 1800's in Great Britain. It was first preached in a Christian Church in the 1830's by John Nelson Darby. And man's Amill theory didn't begin until the 2nd century A.D.