Yeah, no offense, Davy, but I literally could not care less. I mean... just so you know. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory
- Thread starter Davy
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- Do you believe “meat offering” will be restored in your millennium (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20)?
- Do you believe “sin offering” will be restored in your millennium (– Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20)?
- Do you believe “trespass offering” will be restored in your millennium (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20)?
- Do you believe “burnt offerings” will be restored in your millennium (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15)?
- Do you believe “peace offerings” will be restored in your millennium (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12)?
- Do you believe “drink offerings” will be restored in your millennium (Ezekiel 45:17)?
For us, there will be no more pain, no more suffering, no more sin, no more death. I think you agree with that.
Ugh. I agree about the second death existing for the unsaved, certainly, but throughout eternity, which will start after He issues the final Judgment and sends the unsaved away to... well, you know where; we'll just say away from the New Heaven and New Earth.
And, this I agree with. Absolutely. For us, there will be no more death. Absolutely.
See, here again, you seem to be speaking of destroying or destruction in the sense of annihilation. If you are, then no. To be banished from the New Heaven and New Earth is the second death... just as Adam's and Eve's banishment from Eden was a death, just as God told Adam that if he partook of the forbidden tree, he would surely die in that very day, and he did. While the death in both cases is absolutely a real thing, it is not an annihilation, or a wiping from existence, but a state of being. In the case of the second death, however, it is an absolutely permanent state of being... complete ruination, with absolute absence of the grace of God and absolutely no hope of redemption.
Wow. I mean, I know Ezekiel 44, of course, but you'll have to explain your... thinking... here...
Unbelievers, Davy, are still dead in their sin, as they have been from birth (even conception), as we were before being born again. This is a present reality. And this is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-4. The second death is their future reality, in eternity, if they remain dead in their sin and not born again of the Spirit and thus not in Christ. If that remains the case, then at the final Judgment, having been resurrected to judgment (yes, John 5:28-29), they will learn their eternal fate and will go away into this second death. The "future time," Davy... really the age to come, eternity (as opposed to the present age, which is synonymous with "these last days" and the millennium/thousand years of Revelation 20)... is in the future. But we are in the midst of the millennium, the "thousand years" of Revelation 20, which again is synonymous with "these last days" and "at the present time."
Continued below...
Well, "part of," in the sense that we "are members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. We are the temple, Davy. I mean yeah, it's kind of impossible to disagree, right?
<smile> There are folks in this world who think they can hasten the Lord's coming by building something, yes. <smile> But again, the Architect and Builder is God. <smile>
Don't think that's true, Davy. Just not in a... well, wooden... or stone <smile>... sense. You and I are living stones of this temple, who's Architect and Builder is God. <smile>
Continued...
Absolutely.
Absolutely agree with this. Yes, at the time of Ezekiel's prophecy... and Zechariah's... the millennium was surely yet future. <smile>
<eye roll>
Yes, I know. And I don't believe in... well, your "man's theory." Yeah, we disagree. But maybe not as much as you think.
So do I, as I said, only ~ for the most part regarding Revelation, literal in the sense that John's vision is filled with shocking images that symbolize ~ point to, represent ~ very real things.
Hmmm, I think you mean not delegating, rather than delegating, right? And I think the word you mean to use there, rather than "delegating," is actually "relegating," yes? But aside from that, I think out of what you say here maybe the key word is "always," as opposed to... well, I'm not sure... as opposed to "nearly always," or possibly "sometimes," or maybe "never." I think what you're saying here, Davy, implicitly, is that you never do that, and that... is not true. <smile> And this is the problem, one of them anyway, and a very big one with dispensationalism, is that it seems to pick and choose which things are woodenly literal and not apply that wooden literalness to other things, and it is very, very inconsistent in that respect. And that's a problem.
Davy, both of us "believe it because it is written in The Word of God," but we understand it differently. And to this, @WPM asks you some good questions directly above, rhetorical as they may be.
Without a doubt. But Jesus reigns over them, whether they recognize it or not. He is seated at the right hand of God, which means far, far more than just that He's sitting... well, either in a chair or on the floor to the right of the Father... <smile>
Now that may very well be, but that doesn't really mean anything, with all due respect.
<eye roll>
I don't "follow" a group any more than you do, Davy. And, like I said, if you want to call amillennialism a man-made theory, that applies every bit as much to your... well, at least your understanding of eschatology and Revelation.
This question, Davy, really makes no sense to me. To be very frank, I'm not even sure how you could ask such a question.
Ah. Disagree. Mightily. <smile> I have to say, I'm surprised you would say this, really. Even from Jesus's birth, He was king of the Jews, as we see in Matthew 2:1-2... "Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him.'” In that passage in John, Davy, Jesus was acknowledging to Pilate that He was ~ and still is, and forever will be,of course ~ the King of the Jews. But yes, as He said, His Kingdom is not of this world., but rather ~ implicitly, but unmistakably ~ of God, of Heaven.
Absolutely agree. But established it is. And "ONLY," yes, but it is certainly no mere thing. And we are seated in the heavenly realms with Christ, ruling now ~ in the Spirit. This is great, actually; you're acknowledging the "now" that I was speaking of previously... or so it seems. So... how can you say this and then... well, dismiss the spiritual as just spiritual mumbo-jumbo, so to speak? Summarily dismiss it as a very present reality? Such cannot be done, Davy.
That they do not believe in Him does not make Him not the King of the Jews. And... <smile>... true Jews of God, in the sense that Paul ~ who was very, very Jewish) spoke of them in Romans 2:28-29... "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
Continued...
This is... a bit of a rant... <smile> I'm just going to dismiss it, not necessarily as rubbish, mind you, but... well... yes, I'm just gonna kind of let this go... <smile>
Like you, Davy, I follow Jesus.
Jesus said it was... <smile> It's just not here in it's fullness yet, that's for sure. This is the simultaneous now and not yet of the Gospel of Christ. But... one day... One great, great day... Come quickly, Lord Jesus, right?
You know, this has been a pretty nice conversation, I think. At least to this point. I mean, there have been a few little bumps, but I can overlook those... So yeah, maybe you're not such a jerk after all... <smile> I'm kidding with the "jerk" thing, of course...
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
There won't be any pain or dying for the wicked at that time either during Christ's future "thousand years" reign, for they too will be in spirit bodies. But their spirit with soul will... still be subject to the casting into the "lake of fire" later, which is the "second death".
You will really need to actually heed the Zechariah 14 chapter which is about Christ's future return and events thereafter involving the unsaved, even the leftovers of the nations that will come up against Israel on the last day of this world.
Those unsaved nations are going to be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year during Christ's reign and worship Him, and keep the feast of tabernacles; that's what the Scripture says as written. And those of them that refuse to come up to worship, there will be no rain upon their lands. So what does that reveal about the unsaved in that future time, and about Christ's future reign over them?
Nah... you cannot just move the "second death" event backwards... in time, as if it begins on the day of Christ's future coming.
The place Jesus called the "outer darkness" is not... the "lake of fire" "second death". That doctrine you follow that is in error on all that even destroys that difference between those two events and what they are per the Scripture.
Even so, that's still not the written Bible Scripture point about the "second death", now is it? Just because Christ's elect that reign with Him are not subject to that "second death" does not mean it won't exist throughout His "thousand years" reign over the unsaved nations.
I do believe the "second death" is about annihilation. Psalms 37 tells me so...
Ps 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
KJV
And this...
Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV
I also believe what the Revelation 14:11 verse declares... so how do you reconcile this with that Psalms 37 Scripture?
Rev 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
KJV
What exactly does that "no rest" mean in that FUTURE time when the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire" happens to the wicked?
Heb 4:3-6
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
4 For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, 'And God did rest the seventh day from all His works.'
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into My rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
KJV
That idea of "rest" is used above as a metaphor for Christ's future Salvation of those who believe on Him. That time... of that "rest" in fullness is when Jesus returns and the actual manifesting of the "sons of God" in our glorious bodies happens. But for the wicked, they will not... enter into that "rest" because of their unbelief. Revelation 14:11 simply means the wicked will not be there, period, pointing to their destruction in that future "lake of fire". They will NOT... be found, like the Psalms 37 Scripture says as written.
If you really knew that Scripture, then you should not have had to ask...
Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
KJV
Ezek 44:25-26
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
KJV
Most think that "dead person" idea above means a flesh person that dies after Christ's future return. But they only show their Biblical illiteracy about man's time in a flesh body ends on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns in the future. All... including the unsaved, will be in spirit bodies, not flesh bodies. So HOW... is one of those Zadok (means 'The Just') priests, which represent Christ's elect in that future "thousand years" Millennial time, going to go to a tomb of bones about those "dead"?
Have you not understood that ALL... the 'dead' are resurrected on the day of Christ's future coming, per the John 5:28-29 Scripture?
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
I'm just wasting my time with you, because as long as you keep denying those kind of Bible Scriptures I've been showing that prove Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is literal, then you'll just keep trying to use a pry bar to try and twist that Bible Scripture proof.
Well, Davy, I read your post, there. Just... wanted you to know that... <smile>
I'll just say that I don't deny any Bible Scripture at all ~ obviously, because I'm quoting every single Scripture you are and acknowledging it all completely ~ but only... well, to an extent, at least... your, um, take on them... how you "understand" them. With all due respect, I say you should reconsider some things. But that's up to you, of course, and would probably take some modicum of humility to do that... <smile> But anyway, yeah, so, two things:
1.)
2.)
And I'll just add that, obviously, we see the timeline of events differently. In order:
Grace and peace to you.
I'll just say that I don't deny any Bible Scripture at all ~ obviously, because I'm quoting every single Scripture you are and acknowledging it all completely ~ but only... well, to an extent, at least... your, um, take on them... how you "understand" them. With all due respect, I say you should reconsider some things. But that's up to you, of course, and would probably take some modicum of humility to do that... <smile> But anyway, yeah, so, two things:
1.)
You say that "(m)ost think that "dead person" idea above means a flesh person that dies after Christ's future return." A "dead person," Davy, in the eyes of the Lord, is someone that is dead to Him, which is to say that someone is at enmity with Him ~ which, as I said, is a state of being ~ which means that person is actively opposed or hostile to Him. This is the state that Adam and Eve fell into on the day they partook of the forbidden tree in Eden so long ago, just as God told Adam would happen in Genesis 2:17 if he did so. On that very day, just as God said would happen, they took on this death. They did not cease to be, or cease to exist, or even physically die, but they did take on this death... they became "children of wrath," as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2. This is the natural, original state of man from conception ever since that day. And they remain in this state unless... unless... they are born again of the Spirit, in which case they are then a "new creation," as Paul puts it in 2 Corinthians 5:17, and "(t)he old has passed away; behold, the new has come," In this case, what has happened is, God has... as He says through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 19 and 36... "give(n us) a new heart... a new spirit (He has) put within (us. He has) remove(d) the heart of stone from (our) flesh and give(n us) a heart of flesh. And (He has) put (His) Spirit within (us)."
This should... dispel <smile>... the idea that anyone will be immaterial or non-physical in body, either now in this life or in eternity ~ so therefore the idea of annihilation is terribly untrue; God does not do such a thing ~ and whether the person is dead in his/her sin or not. Do you know where that idea comes from? You've heard, I'm quite sure, of Gnosticism; the Gnostics of the first century believed that spirit is good and all matter ~ as it pertains to us, the physical body ~ is evil, and therefore that one day we would all be completely rid of the physical body. This is very opposite what we see in Genesis 1, namely that God created everything, including us, of course, and pronounced it "good," even "very good" (Genesis 1:31 ~ "God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good"). Yes, in this life, our body is, for sure, a "body of sin," as Paul says even of himself in Romans 7, but in eternity, that will no longer be the case, at least for those who have been redeemed by Christ; this will not be the case for the wicked. Then, and only then, will we ~ those of us who have been redeemed by Christ, God's elect ~ be completely "made new," as God says in Revelation 21:5 ~ "behold, I am making all things new..." ~ and without sin. That's all things, Davy, even our physical bodies. When Paul speaks of the spiritual body in 1 Corinthians 15, Davy, he's speaking of being of the Spirit, so therefore having a spiritual quality. We who have been born again of the Spirit have this spiritual quality, but it is not yet true of our physical bodies... but will surely be, when Jesus returns... when we are resurrected to eternal life. Again, as he says of himself in Romans 7, "it is no longer (he) who sin(s), but the sin that dwells within (him)... nothing good dwells in (him), that is, in (his) flesh... evil lies close at hand... (he) delight(s) in the law of God, in (his) inner being, but (he) see(s) in (his) members..." his physical body "...another law waging war against the law of (his) mind, making (him) captive to the law of sin that dwells in (his) members." So, one great day, sin will no longer dwell in our members, but members ~ a head, arms, and legs ~ we will most certainly have. <smile>
2.)
As for the unrepentant, the wicked, in the age to come, eternity ~ not the millennium; that time is now, "these last days" (Hebrews 1:1-2). ever since Pentecost and until Christ returns; this is the time that God is building His Israel and bringing it to completion, which it will be when all the elect Gentiles have been brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed and thus all Jews of God so all Israel saved (Romans 11:25-26) ~ they will be a.) like us in the respect that, because of the physical (second) resurrection, which, yes, all experience, so having also "come out of their graves" as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, reunited with their physical bodies, but b.) very unlike us in the respect that they will be resurrected to the resurrection of judgment rather than the resurrection to eternal life, and as a result of the final Judgment, depart ~ go away obediently into this "outer darkness," meaning without God's grace, so within His everlasting judgment, where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Mark 9:18; Luke 13:28). And this place is the "lake of fire," so completely submersed in God's judgment, and this state of being "is the second death." This will be their eternal dwelling place.
And I'll just add that, obviously, we see the timeline of events differently. In order:
- Now is the millennium of Revelation 20, ever since Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
- Jesus will return after the close of this "thousand year" period, when God's Israel is complete (the fullness of the Gentiles brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel removed).
- At that time, Jesus will defeat Satan once and for all.
- Immediately following will be the general, physical, "second," resurrection, in which "all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29)
- Immediately following that will be the final Judgment ~ executed by Christ Jesus and depicted in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15
- Immediately following that will be the ushering in of His Kingdom in it's fullness... "the kingdom of the world will then have become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever" (Revelation 11:15). This is of course not to say that Christ has not been King before that point, but only that His reign in God's millennium is over (because the millennium is no more) and his eternal reign will have begun (because eternity will have begun, of course) and will have no end. And just a note about Revelation as a whole and its structure, we are to see it as a series of visions, which are seven concurrent cycles of history, all culminating in the return of Christ, and each one focusing more on Christ's return than the one(s) previous.
Grace and peace to you.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Amazing how you keep seeing my posts despite me being on your ignore list.
Anyway, you must have a problem with what King Jesus Himself said.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
I'm simply going by what scripture teaches. You're going by your own imagination of how you want things to be.
I could not possibly care less if what I say gets you riled up. That means the truth gets you riled up, which is sad.
There is no such Bible scripture. But, there is this:
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Show me where you see any description in that passage of Jesus reigning over anyone the way you think He will. It's not there. It describes Him as breaking/destroying His enemies (the heathen) with a rod of iron, not ruling over them for a long period of time. Do you just ignore that?
There is no such thing as a Christian nation. That concept is not taught anywhere in scripture. You have to invent ideas like that to keep your doctrine afloat. Each individual in all nations is either a Christian or a non-Christian.
Your understanding of what it means to reign is completely flawed. You think it has something to do with a dictatorship, but that isn't what Christ's reign is about.
Scripture teaches that Jesus has already made us (His people) priests in His kingdom (Rev 1:5-6) which is why Peter calls us "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). Why do you just ignore scriptures like those?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why would the wicked be allowed to live for a thousand more years (plus Satan's little season) after being resurrected if their eternal destiny is already set? What would be the point of that? Why would they not instead just go immediately before the throne to e judged and cast into the lake of fire? There would be no reason at all to delay their judgment after they are resurrected, yet you have their judgment delayed by a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) for no discernible reason.
Why would they be required to do that when, no matter what they do, they will end up in the lake of fire? Of do you try to say that they are being given a second chance at salvation after being resurrected, which is not taught anywhere in scripture?
That passage does not teach annihilation. That simply says the wicked shall not be anymore on the earth because they will be cast into the lake of fire where eternal torment is experienced (Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10). Meanwhile, the meek shall inherit the (new, renewed) earth for eternity.
That's talking about the wicked being physically destroyed. Again, that verse has nothing to do with annihilation. You can't just ignore verses like Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 which indicate that the lake of fire is a place where eternal torment occurs.
It means the same thing that it will mean for Satan, which means that their torment is ongoing and eternal. Do you try to say that Satan will be annihilated, too?
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Are you going to try to say that Satan being tormented day and night forever somehow means something different than unbelievers being tormented day and night forever? Only doctrinal bias would lead someone to claim that.
He's an amillennialist, so of course he understands that just as all amillennialists do. You're the only premillennialist that I've ever seen who interprets John 5:28-29 the way you do. You have a doctrine all to yourself.
You always whine and want to run away any time someone disagrees with you. Why do you post here at all if you think you're wasting time with anyone who disagrees with you, which is everyone? No amil agrees with your interpretation of Revelation 20 and no premil agrees with your interpretation of John 5:28-29.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You agree with Amillennialists that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time, per John 5:28-29. Does that make you uncomfortable?
Not all Amill folks believe that, so please stop making stuff up that is not true.
The, um, good ones do. <smile> I mean there are good Christians out there who believe Jesus to be saying that there are two different resurrections there... and in a certain sense that's true... but they actually think those two resurrections will be separated by some significant amount of time, and that's just not right, regardless what they call themselves or classify themselves as. The separation is a purpose thing... what one group is resurrected to as opposed to the other group. The separation of the two is not with regard to time.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
Okay, cool. I don't care. <smile>
I mean, it might be to you, but hey, I'm here to help...
Is that all ya got, Davy? <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting that from? Yes, they do. Tell me how someone can be Amill without believing that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time (or generally the same time)? Part of the core beliefs of Amill is not believing there is a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) between the resurrections of the dead in Christ (saved) and the unsaved.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I can see why you wouldn't want me to interfere with this scintillating, highly productive conversation you're having with Davy.Okay, cool. I don't care. <smile>
I mean, it might be to you, but hey, I'm here to help...
Is that all ya got, Davy? <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Now that I have time to respond...
Before you get ahead of yourself, just what all Bible Scriptures that I have mentioned have you quoted and agreed on?
In your Post #82, you responded with to me with the following when I referred to Rev.20 Scripture about the "second death"...
___________________________________
You said:
"Yes, of course. Because we have been born again of the Spirit (as was the case with all those who were in Christ when they physically died, we are surely exempted from the second death. When the second resurrection occurs, we will all be resurrected physically not to judgment, as many will be, but to eternal life. Absolutely. During the final Judgment, we will stand on Jesus's right (Matthew 25:31-40), and in the congregation of the righteous and will therefore stand in the Judgment (Psalm 1) ~ while the others will be on His left (Matthew 25:41-46), not in the congregation of the righteous, and will not stand in the Judgment (Psalm 1)."
________________________________
I never... implied that doctrine you have above in 'red'. Per John 5:28-29 by Lord Jesus (which I have quoted), the "resurrection of damnation" happens ALSO on the same day of His future coming. That means the wicked will ALSO have resurrection bodies on the day of Christ's return, and they will exist thereafter, as I also referred to the Zechariah 14 Scripture about the leftovers of the unsaved nations that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world when Jesus returns. I don't see you COVERING ANY OF THAT IN THE ABOVE RESPONSE. So let's not talk falsely now, with your saying you have read and responded to all the Bible Scripture I had shown.
Furthermore, just the fact that YOU RECOGNIZE Christ's future separation of His sheep from the goats of Matt.25, means those 'goats' are NOT DESTROYED on the day of His future return; but their destruction is one of the false doctrines that Amill theory proposes.
Further You Said the following, in response to my point that Amill believes all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's return...
___________________________
You Said:
"Destroyed... Well, it's unclear what you mean by "destroyed," the nature of this destroying. But maybe that's immaterial... We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect."
__________________________
It is very... clear that you knew what I meant, because that destruction of the wicked on the day of Christ's future return is part of the Amill theory. And that certainly is NOT "immaterial", which your use of that word betrays your faith in that false Amill doctrine you hold to.
What is most amazing in your above reply, is how you ADMIT Christ's future return in the Rev.19 witness is PRIOR to the millennium of Rev.20! and then you claim that is incorrect?? Your thinking on that is whack. Maybe God should consult you to see if you will let Him create a legal amendment done to those Scriptures for you.
_____________________________
You Also Said:
"Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 do not depict, respectively speaking, a second and then a third coming... or a second coming and then a second second coming. Either way that's very incorrect... there are second and then a third coming separated by a thousand years... not two separate second comings separated by a thousand years. Of course not; that's... well... <smile>... yeah, incorrect."
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Of course Rev.19 and Rev.20 is NOT about two different comings by Lord Jesus. Those Scriptures are BOTH about the ONLY future return by Lord Jesus on the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY of this present world. (I do not believe man's false pre-trib rapture theory). What you said above in 'red' is MOST UNBIBLICAL. There's ONLY TWO comings by Jesus Christ, the 1st one was to be as the Lamb Sacrifice upon His cross. The second, and ONLY coming still remaining today, is His coming on the LAST DAY of this present world, which is also when He gathers His faithful Church who WAIT for Him.
In your above statements, you kind of reveal you do not... actually understand the timing of all that. Zechariah 9:9-10 reveals only TWO comings by Lord Jesus Christ. There is NO THIRD coming, like a Pre-trib Rapture prior to the "great tribulation", as that is a doctrine from men, and not written in God's Word.
And yes, Christ's 1st coming, so far, is separated by over 2,000 years from His future 2nd coming on the last day of this world. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Apostle Paul revealed Jesus' coming to gather His Church is timed with the future RESURRECTION of the 'asleep' saints who have already died in Christ. That Scripture makes a 'rapture' prior to the "great tribulation" impossible. The 2nd coming on the last day of this world, is when Christ will gather His Church, His faithful Church that is, which WAIT for Him and do not become apostates to the false-Christ that comes first.
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In another post You Said in response that Jesus is NOT reigning over the nations yet today:
"And this I disagree with. His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, but it will. We can say this about a lot of very Biblical things, but this is what we call "the now and the not yet." Jesus is reigning ~ in heaven, for now ~ right now. His millennial reign is right now. Now, that His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, two things to that:"
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That kind of thinking is gross... deception. In John 18:36 Lord Jesus said His Kingdom is NOT of this world (meaning of this present world time), otherwise He said, His servants would fight so that He would have not been delivered up to be crucified.
How can anyone fight against what Lord Jesus said there in that John 18:36 verse, and even with looking at what is going on in today's world?
What you show you have succumbed to is very... dangerous, because the ONLY literal kingdom being setup on this earth today is by Satan and his host of workers who are building the near future ten horns, seven heads, and ten crown beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1! The Occult secret societies that worship Lucifer are behind that working, even as one of their high ranking Masons wrote that there will be 3 world wars, with the goal in final to destroy all... religion, and institute the "pure worship of Lucifer". I believe Albert Pike was his name.
So I am well... aware of that working going on behind the scenes today by those secret societies who worship the devil in their higher membership, with the lower members not having a real clue as to what their organizations are actually about. And even an 18th century British Mason revealed their working in the discovered secret documents of Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati order (See Proofs Of A Conspiracy (1798) by John Robison - Proofs of a conspiracy against all the religions and governments of Europe, carried on in the secret meetings of Free Masons, Illuminati, and reading societies. Collected from good authorities, by John Robison, ... The fourth edition, corrected; to which is added a postscript. 1798 : Robison, John. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive)
Another source for the 'modern' working on that is Georgetown history professor Carroll Quigley's 1960's book Tragedy And Hope, which he wrote unwittingly exposing the conspiracy among the British Round Table Group which established a branch of it in the early 1900's in the United States called the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR). Quigley coined the phrase "the establishment" in his book. His printers destroyed the printing plates, and Quigley had to sue them to discover that, and he then later said his book must have said something the establishment did not want known. Boy did it. Quigley said he had no problem with that movement by those establishment globalists, but that only he disagreed that they wanted it to remain secret.
Quigley in his book, actually exposed that the Rhodes Scholarship program is actually a brain child of British diamond and gold magnate Cecil B. Rhodes towards creating a one-world Socialist State over all nations. This is why Rhodes scholars selected in the U.S. are sent to Oxford University in London, the school where Rhodes Socialism is taught them. Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar, the list of who's who is about that program. Their training is about statesmen learning to get legislation passed to build a "New World Order", or "one world government". This is the reason why "establishment" U.S. Presidents have been guilty of destroying U.S. soverngnity.
There's been other documentation exposing that globalist movement still working behind the scenes today. And you're going to tell me that's a movement sponsored by our Lord Jesus Christ? That idea is absolutely NUTS!
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The record is clear, Davy. You can go back through this thread and see, if you want. Something tells me you won't bother, and that's fine with me. But the record is clear.
I wouldn't call it a "doctrine," really, it just is.
Good, and this is what I said. Not using those exact words, but yes. What you say here is a reiteration, really, of what I said in red directly above.
Good. Exactly as I have said.
Do you have your eyes closed? <smile>
Ah, well, that depends on what you mean by "destroyed," Davy. If you mean it in the sense of being annihilated, then I agree; they will not be destroyed in that sense. But someone can be destroyed in a very different sense, and will be, once the final Judgment is rendered.
No, it was not clear what you meant by "destroyed." And it's still not, really. So, just say it, Davy. What exactly do you think this destroying is? It should be easy to answer, but yet you never have.
I have done and do no such thing, Davy. Read it again, my friend. Read what I said again. I think, if you do, that you will see that what I said was, I know the misunderstanding that Christ's future return in the Revelation 19 witness is prior to the millennium of Revelation 20, which is to say that the correct understanding is different than that. And what I said was, the events of Revelation 19 ~ specifically verses 11-21 ~ are not prior to the millennium of Revelation 20, but subsequent to it... and, with regard to Revelation 20, the same events described in a different way as Revelation 20:7-10. And this I have been crystal clear about over and over and over and over again. It's a bit more complicated than this, John's Revelation is a series of seven visions of the last time ~ of history from Pentecost to Jesus's return and beyond ~ and Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are the sixth and the seventh, the seventh really culminating not just with Christ's return but the final Judgment and the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth in the first few verses of Revelation 21.
I have said this over and over and over again, with no variation. But yet you ~ and others; you're not the only one ~ keep telling me I have said things and believe things that I have not said and do not believe. Which is a little bit incredible, actually, but so it goes.
LOL! Your thinking on what my thinking is is what's whack, Davy. LOL!
Great! LOL! I agree! Great!!!! LOL!
Great! So, what happens then, Davy? Maybe we're on pretty much the same page. Maybe. <chuckles> What happens then? You know, according to Scripture, as you understannd it?
I think I clearly demonstrated here (and before, actually) your misunderstanding of my above statements.
Great! So maybe you're amillennial in your eschatology! LOL! Even while you rail against amillennialism. LOL! I don't think so, though; I think you're post-millennial, which is not as wrong as pre-millennialism, but still... <smile> I did think, until now, that you were pre-millennial (which is not necessarily dispensational or "pre-trib"), though. <smile> Are you post-mill? And if so, why?
Ah, see, now what you have in parentheses is... Well, that His Kingdom is not of this world is not in reference to time. <smile> Think about the words, there. His Kingdom is not of this world.
Well, I'm not sure, but I'm sure not... <smile>
Not according to Jesus... <smile> Jesus did in fact say, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand..." (Matthew 3:2, 4:8, 4:17, 10:7, 12:28, and Mark 1:15). So, the kingdom of God is not yet here in its fullness, but it is very much here now... and growing. <smile> I'll ask you again, though you already answered well, Who is your King, Davy? Right now? <smile> Who is your King right now?
Nuts... yeah sounds like it. I don't even know what you're talking about here, and I don't care to, to be quite honest. <smile>
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
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