The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Spiritual Israelite]

What makes you think I even think the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are the same judgment to begin with? Because I clearly don't. Therefore, per my perspective this point is moot.

You shared your perspective and I shared mine. But, somehow it's only okay you to share yours?

Scripture only teaches one judgment, not two ore more.

If Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:1-15 are two different judgments then tell me the difference between this:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15 are two different judgments then which one is this referring to:

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Which judgment is this referring to:

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Which judgment is this referring to:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Who the sheep are meaning is easy to figure out. It's the goats, that most, including you, haven't figured out who they represent.

I have figured that out since that is very easy. They get cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" which I believe is an obvious reference to the lake of fire and Revelation 20:15 tells us that it is all those whose names are not written in the book of life who get cast there. So, that is who the goats represent. Very simple. But, you make it convoluted by turning Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15 into different judgments.

And the reason why you haven't figured it out is because you are disregarding the context leading up to that judgment.

Stop making claims that you can't back up. I disregard nothing. Seeing the context differently from you is not a case of disregarding it.

The context that started all the way back towards the end of ch 24 and continues through verse 30 in ch 25. That context. And what does that context involve? Professed servants of His, profitable and unprofitable. Prove I'm lying about that by showing otherwise. Therefore, the sheep represent His profitable servants, the goats His unprofitable servants. It's really that simple, but because of your doctrinal bias you place your doctrine above context.

To determine context involves taking all of scripture into account, not just the preceding verses. Why do you ignore the rest of scripture when interpreting Matthew 25:31-46? If another scripture indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the fire at the same time, as Revelation 20:15 does, then why do you have some whose names are not written in the book of life being cast there one time and the rest another time? Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 have all unbelievers being cast there at the same time as well

 

[PinSeeker]

Per Revelation 22, one of the major changes with the future new heavens and a new earth time, is then there will be NO MORE DEATH. That's huge!

Absolutely. No more sin, no more death. That's... yeah, "huge." To... you know, put it rather mildly... <smile>

However, for Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect beginning at His future return...

Ohhhhhhhh... boy. Well, His return is certainly in the future; we agree on that... <smile> And... the rest of God's millennium, but there may not be much, even from our perspective, left of that... <smile>

...we are told there will still exist the "second death", and what it is, i.e., the casting of the unsaved into the future "lake of fire" AFTER... the "thousand years" period.

Yes...

Those of the "first resurrection" of course mean the saved, Christ's elect that reign with Him.

Right, and even we who share in it, even now, reign with Him, in the Holy Spirit. Not yet in person, but in the Holy Spirit. We are seated right now with Him in the heavenly places, having been resurrected in spirit ~ previously having been dead in our trespasses/sin, but no longer, and now having been raised with Christ, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. This is the first resurrection of Revelation 20.

Did you notice in that time there will exist the concept of a "SECOND DEATH", and that it is NOT for those of the "first resurrection"??

Yes, of course. Because we have been born again of the Spirit (as was the case with all those who were in Christ when they physically died, we are surely exempted from the second death. When the second resurrection occurs, we will all be resurrected physically not to judgment, as many will be, but to eternal life. Absolutely. During the final Judgment, we will stand on Jesus's right (Matthew 25:31-40), and in the congregation of the righteous and will therefore stand in the Judgment (Psalm 1) ~ while the others will be on His left (Matthew 25:41-46), not in the congregation of the righteous, and will not stand in the Judgment (Psalm 1).

Use a little common sense now and ask yourself, since that "second death" is NOT for those who live and reign with Christ, then WHO is it for? For the UNSAVED, or course!!

Of course. I don't think any one of us here disputes that. I hope not anyway.

... Amillennialism which believes all... the unsaved are destroyed on the day of Christ's return???

Destroyed... Well, it's unclear what you mean by "destroyed," the nature of this destroying. But maybe that's immaterial... We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect.

Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 do not depict, respectively speaking, a second and then a third coming... or a second coming and then a second second coming. Either way that's very incorrect... there are second and then a third coming separated by a thousand years... not two separate second comings separated by a thousand years. Of course not; that's... well... <smile>... yeah, incorrect. Both these passages depict the same event, and the same as Revelation16:14, 16 ~ "...demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty... they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon..." ~ and Revelation 17:14 ~ "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with Him are called and chosen and faithful."

And, I've asked this before, but hey, Davy, who ~ well, Who ~ is your King, Davy? Right now. Who is your King? If your answer is Jesus, then that's exactly right, and in view of the fact that, as Paul says in Colossians 3:3-4, that "you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God", and "(w)hen Christ Who is your life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory," then you should know that you are reigning with Him right now. As am I. <smile> And all Christians, past and present, who were... have been... born again of the Spirit.

It means that Amillennialism theory is FALSE, COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FALSE!

And all it took was one simple little look at that concept of the "second death" for the wicked and unsaved, which is their casting into the "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect is over (see Rev.20).

No, we absolutely agree on that... <smile> The ironic thing in all these oft-repeated discussions, is how much we all agree on these things; the disagreement is on the nature of these things, not the things themselves.

And really, Davy, I don't really like the term 'amillennialism,' because it's really a misnomer, implying ~ because of the 'a' prefix ~ that there is no millennium. I really prefer 'nunc-millennialism,' because it is more accurate, the 'nunc' prefix makes clear the nowness, the at-the-present-time-ness of it. But certainly, it precedes the second coming of Christ ~ not the "third coming," as dispensationalists see it ~ the final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the resulting sending away from the New Heaven and New Earth of the wicked/unsaved into the second death, in which they will be fully immersed in the "lake" of the "fire" of God's eternal judgment, from which the righteous/saved will certainly be exempted, and enter into the New Heaven and New Earth and eternal life.

But... you know... it's okay. Really. There are "hills to die on," but this is not one of them. This disagreement is really inconsequential, in the sense that Jesus is coming back, and... well, in the words of Isaiah ~ I love Isaiah 35...

"...a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there. And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away."​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

When it comes to reading Matthew 25:31-47, do you perhaps have reading comprehension or something? Can you not see that the goats all answer Jesus in the same manner?

Let's take Cain for example. Clearly he would be among the lost.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Now let's assume Cain is one of these goats present.

You assumed wrong.

Many people like you mistakenly believe that Cain should not be considered one of the goats in Matthew 25 simply because his only recorded act was the murder of his brother Abel, rather than actively neglecting those in need. However, Cain embodied the spirit of Satan, characterized by deceit, jealousy, envy, violence, and murder (and many more). This spirit shows indifference to God's people and their needs and relationship to God. The heart problem he displayed is the same, regardless of the time period in relation to Christ's life. ALL goats from the Old Testament and New Testament share the SAME spirit of disobedience. From Cain to the last unsaved person on Earth, they will all face judgment and be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[PinSeeker]

You assumed wrong.

Many people like you mistakenly believe that Cain should not be considered one of the goats in Matthew 25 simply because his only recorded act was the murder of his brother Abel, rather than actively neglecting those in need. However, Cain embodied the spirit of Satan, characterized by deceit, jealousy, envy, violence, and murder (and many more). This spirit shows indifference to God's people and their needs and relationship to God. The heart problem he displayed is the same, regardless of the time period in relation to Christ's life. ALL goats from the Old Testament and New Testament share the SAME spirit of disobedience. From Cain to the last unsaved person on Earth, they will all face judgment and be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Yeah, Cain sits in the same seat as Esau. And the rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16:19 and following. They, and all like them, will be on Jesus's left in the final Judgment. Right.

Grace and peace to you, TS.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When it comes to reading Matthew 25:31-47, do you perhaps have reading comprehension or something?

He does not have a reading comprehension problem, but you certainly do. Are you somehow not aware that not just believers, but even all unbelievers will one day bow down and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord?

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Even Adolf Hitler will be confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord at that point.

So, when the goats are saying "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, etc.?" it doesn't have to be the case that they ever calimed to believe in Jesus during their lifetime. That's your assumption but you are wrong.

Can you not see that the goats all answer Jesus in the same manner?

Let's take Cain for example. Clearly he would be among the lost.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


Now let's assume Cain is one of these goats present.


Then Cain also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Do you not comprehend that when Cain lived and walked the earth, Jesus hadn't even been born yet? Why then would Cain be answering Him like that, as if he personally knew of Jesus? Come on, why can't some of you interpret things in context so that it doesn't end up making nonsense of the texts involved? Is that asking too much?

Come on, why can't you take other scripture related to the judgment into account when interpreting Matthew 25:31-46? Nowhere does scripture teach that there will be two judgments. Also, when the judgment occurs all people from all-time, including Cain, will be bowing down and acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord. You don't take things like this into account. You need to look at the big picture and look at all of scripture when interpreting this passage.

Let's also throw an unrepentant athiest in here, or how about an unrepenant unbelieving Jew? Let's see if that makes sense of the text.

Then the unrepentant athiest also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Makes total sense because all of them will be boing down and confessing that He is Lord at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who the sheep are meaning is easy to figure out. It's the goats, that most, including you, haven't figured out who they represent. And the reason why you haven't figured it out is because you are disregarding the context leading up to that judgment. The context that started all the way back towards the end of ch 24 and continues through verse 30 in ch 25. That context. And what does that context involve? Professed servants of His, profitable and unprofitable. Prove I'm lying about that by showing otherwise. Therefore, the sheep represent His profitable servants, the goats His unprofitable servants. It's really that simple, but because of your doctrinal bias you place your doctrine above context.

I forgot to say this earlier when I responded to this post. You said the sheep represent "His profitable servants". And who are they exactly then? They inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world at that time, right? Do you see any of them as inheriting the kingdom with mortal bodies?

 

[WPM]

When it comes to reading Matthew 25:31-47, do you perhaps have reading comprehension or something? Can you not see that the goats all answer Jesus in the same manner?

Let's take Cain for example. Clearly he would be among the lost.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


Now let's assume Cain is one of these goats present.


Then Cain also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Do you not comprehend that when Cain lived and walked the earth, Jesus hadn't even been born yet? Why then would Cain be answering Him like that, as if he personally knew of Jesus? Come on, why can't some of you interpret things in context so that it doesn't end up making nonsense of the texts involved? Is that asking too much?

Let's also throw an unrepentant athiest in here, or how about an unrepenant unbelieving Jew? Let's see if that makes sense of the text.

Then the unrepentant athiest also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Then the unrepentant unbelieving Jew also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Both examples make perfect sense of the text, right? Yea, right.

Let's try one more since we have been striking out here thus far.

Then His unprofitable servant also answered him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


Wow! What do you know, finally something that makes perfect sense of the text. Since that is the idea, right? To make sense of the text, not nonsense of it instead. You should try it sometime, meaning making sense of the texts involved rather than making them nonsensical instead.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Here's a passage for you to consider, and yet you still won't get it, would be my guess. The reason why I say that is because it would require you having to humble yourself and admit that you have been misinterpreting who the goats are meaning.

Obviously, but probably not to you though, when Jesus said this---Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these---He meant by that someone such as this---a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food

Real easy! Every knee will bow and every tongue is going to confess Him as "Lord" on that great and final day.

Also, you ignore the fact that the Christ-rejecters here are before the same throne at the same time just demolishing your claim that this does not occur until 1000 years later.

 

[WPM]

He does not have a reading comprehension problem, but you certainly do. Are you somehow not aware that not just believers, but even all unbelievers will one day bow down and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord?

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Even Adolf Hitler will be confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord at that point.

So, when the goats are saying "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, etc.?" it doesn't have to be the case that they ever calimed to believe in Jesus during their lifetime. That's your assumption but you are wrong.


Come on, why can't you take other scripture related to the judgment into account when interpreting Matthew 25:31-46? Nowhere does scripture teach that there will be two judgments. Also, when the judgment occurs all people from all-time, including Cain, will be bowing down and acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord. You don't take things like this into account. You need to look at the big picture and look at all of scripture when interpreting this passage.


Makes total sense because all of them will be boing down and confessing that He is Lord at that point.

Exactly! I didn't read this before I replied above.

 

[Davy]

....

Destroyed... Well, it's unclear what you mean by "destroyed," the nature of this destroying. But maybe that's immaterial... We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect.

Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 do not depict, respectively speaking, a second and then a third coming... or a second coming and then a second second coming. Either way that's very incorrect... there are second and then a third coming separated by a thousand years... not two separate second comings separated by a thousand years. Of course not; that's... well... <smile>... yeah, incorrect. Both these passages depict the same event, and the same as Revelation16:14, 16 ~ "...demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty... they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon..." ~ and Revelation 17:14 ~ "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with Him are called and chosen and faithful."

On the "day of the Lord" when Lord Jesus returns, there will be a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked, like Apostle Paul said, pulling from the Old Testament prophets. Revelation 11:13 on the day of Christ's coming, it says "seven thousand" are slain in that great earthquake to occur on that day. I believe those, and the ones of the nations that come up against Jerusalem on the last day, will be 'literally' destroyed, with the "seven thousand" representing a certain group of Satan's angels that come to earth with him for the time of "great tribulation". But at that time of Christ's coming, not all the UNSAVED are destroyed, but only cast to the "outer darkness", outside the gates of the beloved city Jesus brings with Him...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

TWO MAJOR THINGS to note in that above Rev.22:14-15 prophecy:

1. Verse 14 is pointing to the established "camp of the saints" on earth, at the "beloved city" of Rev.20:9. That has to mean, that Rev.22:14 verse has the "sanctuary" and God's "river" and that Tree of Life on either side of the River, already... established on earth, per Ezekiel 47.

2. Rev.22:15 then reveals the wicked are outside... the gates of the beloved city (new Jerusalem and "camp of the saints"). That represents the "outer darkness" which Jesus spoke of in Matt.8:12; Matt.22:13; and Matt.25:30. Those must... include the unjust of the "resurrection of damnation" also which are raised on the day of Christ's future coming, per John 5:28-29.

Then we have to remember... Rev.21:22 which tells us that in the New Heavens and a New Earth timing, there will no longer be any temple (meaning that "sanctuary" of stone of Ezekiel 47 that will exist in Jerusalem which Jesus will build when He returns, per Zechariah 6). Just the existence of that future "sanctuary", or "temple" of Zech.6, that is to be built by Christ THE "BRANCH" when He returns, reveals the mention of His future "thousand years" reign here on earth will be literal. That's because Rev.21:22 shows in the NHNE timing, there will be NO MORE TEMPLE, meaning no longer a stone temple in Jerusalem, for The Father and The Son instead will be the temple thereof.

 

[Davy]

....

And, I've asked this before, but hey, Davy, who ~ well, Who ~ is your King, Davy? Right now. Who is your King? If your answer is Jesus, then that's exactly right, and in view of the fact that, as Paul says in Colossians 3:3-4, that "you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God", and "(w)hen Christ Who is your life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory," then you should know that you are reigning with Him right now. As am I. <smile> And all Christians, past and present, who were... have been... born again of the Spirit.

Christ Jesus is my KING right now, and forever; you well know that I think.

And NAH... you cannot just try and turn that into some slogan of men, simply because HIS WORD is how we know the PROPER TIMELINE of events that are to happen, and HIS WORD is CERTAIN that HE is NOT YET reigning over ALL nations on earth today.

And if you don't believe me, why aren't you busy spreading The Gospel of Jesus Christ in nations like IRAN, or in JERUSALEM even, and see how the majority of the peoples there react to you when you speak of our Lord Jesus Christ to them! Didn't you know the orthodox unbelieving religious JEWS in today's Israel still burn New Testament Bibles in Jerusalem???

No, we absolutely agree on that... <smile> The ironic thing in all these oft-repeated discussions, is how much we all agree on these things; the disagreement is on the nature of these things, not the things themselves.

Sorry, I am not... buying that above soft approach. I know better, because God's Word has taught me to know better. You and I disagree on quite a few things about the actual Bible Scriptures as written. And what you say in your next paragraph is proof of what I just said...

And really, Davy, I don't really like the term 'amillennialism,' because it's really a misnomer, implying ~ because of the 'a' prefix ~ that there is no millennium. I really prefer 'nunc-millennialism,' because it is more accurate, the 'nunc' prefix makes clear the nowness, the at-the-present-time-ness of it. But certainly, it precedes the second coming of Christ ~ not the "third coming," as dispensationalists see it ~ the final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the resulting sending away from the New Heaven and New Earth of the wicked/unsaved into the second death, in which they will be fully immersed in the "lake" of the "fire" of God's eternal judgment, from which the righteous/saved will certainly be exempted, and enter into the New Heaven and New Earth and eternal life.

I guess you missed Crosswalk's definition of Amillennialism, as it said that ALL VERSIONS of the theory believe there is NO LITERAL MILLENNIUM. That means then, no millennial before, or... after Christ's future return.

Thus you are correct on one thing, that label you like for the doctrine you hold to that is 'outside' the theory of Amillennialism completely, if you do believe the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is literal, but just happening right now, instead of when Jesus returns in the future.

Regardless though, Christ's "thousand years" Millennial reign with His elect priests and kings is NOT YET TODAY. We easily... know this per God's written Word which points to the coming Antichrist for the future "great tribulation" event setting up a one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations, and demanding that ALL bow in worship to him or the "image of the beast" he will setup in JERUSALEM, or be killed.

Everything is right on time today according to Bible prophecy, but there are many brethren which are way off in their alignment of understanding Biblical timelines. And the Kingdom-Now folks, which you show support for their theory, are definitely deceived, and even prepared... by today's globalists to 'unknowingly' accept the coming false-Messiah in place of our Lord Jesus Christ. The false-Messiah comes first, prior to our Lord Jesus' future coming. Lord Jesus warned us about that, Apostle Paul also did, and Apostle John did too. So we have NO excuse to fall off into some dreamland doctrine that Satan's host push to trick deceived brethren.

 

[Davy]

No one is saying that is happening today, so nice job of wasting your time with a straw man argument there. Nowhere does it teach that all people will be bowing to Jesus Christ until the judgment occurs when every knee shall bow (including the unsaved) and acknowledge that He is Lord (Isaiah 45:22-24, Philippians 2:9-11, Romans 14:10-12).

When anyone... declares that Christ's Kingdom is ALREADY SETUP TODAY upon this earth, then they ARE... declaring that Lord Jesus' REIGN over ALL nations is ALREADY happening!

(Sorry for the capitals, but Biblical ignorance, especially 'willful' Biblical ignorance by Christian brethren, makes me riled up.)

Haven't you ever read Bible Scripture about Christ's LITERAL reign over the nations with His given "rod of iron"??

Are the Christian Nations today reigning over nations like IRAN, RED CHINA, NORTH KOREA, CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LEBANON, SUDAN, etc., and many other nations where the majority give their allegiance to ISLAM, or some other faith than Jesus Christ??

If Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME today on earth, then why... are WE NOT... reigning WITH Jesus over those RADICAL NATIONS that hate HIM?? Afterall, Jesus promised His elect would reign WITH HIM over the nations with that "rod of iron"! (Rev.2:25-27)

 

[WPM]

On the "day of the Lord" when Lord Jesus returns, there will be a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked, like Apostle Paul said, pulling from the Old Testament prophets. Revelation 11:13 on the day of Christ's coming, it says "seven thousand" are slain in that great earthquake to occur on that day. I believe those, and the ones of the nations that come up against Jerusalem on the last day, will be 'literally' destroyed, with the "seven thousand" representing a certain group of Satan's angels that come to earth with him for the time of "great tribulation". But at that time of Christ's coming, not all the UNSAVED are destroyed, but only cast to the "outer darkness", outside the gates of the beloved city Jesus brings with Him...

Not true! That is the 6th trumpet.

The second coming is the 7th trumpet. There, all the righteous are rescued, and all the wicked are destroyed.

 

[WPM]

When anyone... declares that Christ's Kingdom is ALREADY SETUP TODAY upon this earth, then they ARE... declaring that Lord Jesus' REIGN over ALL nations is ALREADY happening!

(Sorry for the capitals, but Biblical ignorance, especially 'willful' Biblical ignorance by Christian brethren, makes me riled up.)

Haven't you ever read Bible Scripture about Christ's LITERAL reign over the nations with His given "rod of iron"??

Are the Christian Nations today reigning over nations like IRAN, RED CHINA, NORTH KOREA, CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LEBANON, SUDAN, etc., and many other nations where the majority give their allegiance to ISLAM, or some other faith than Jesus Christ??

If Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME today on earth, then why... are WE NOT... reigning WITH Jesus over those RADICAL NATIONS that hate HIM?? Afterall, Jesus promised His elect would reign WITH HIM over the nations with that "rod of iron"! (Rev.2:25-27)

I thought you were ignoring him? You seem to be all noise!

 

[PinSeeker]

@Davy
Hey! What happened to me being on your ignore list?

Yeah so much for that...

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[WPM]

@Davy
Hey! What happened to me being on your ignore list?

Yeah so much for that...

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

Exactly!

 

[PinSeeker]

On the "day of the Lord" when Lord Jesus returns, there will be a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked...

Right, but what's the nature of that destruction, Davy? In different contexts, 'destruction' can mean different things. Just to name two:

1. total annihilation
2. complete ruination

Those can both be understood as a destruction, but the nature of the two are very different.

At any rate, you and I agree that on that great day, the Lord will end sin and death forever, and, yes, all the wicked/unsaved will be destroyed ~ not in the sense of annihilation or a wiping from existence, but of complete and utter ruination, loss of all hope of redemption, eternal condemnation, and will be sent away into this, yes, "outer darkness," in which God's grace is completely removed and only His judgment remains, yes, outside the gates of the beloved city Jesus brings with Him... the New Heaven and New Earth... much in the same manner as Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden so long ago, but on a much greater scale... completely without hope of ever returning.

Rev.21:22 which tells us that in the New Heavens and a New Earth timing, there will no longer be any temple....

Right, I agree; WE are the temple, Davy. With Christ is the cornerstone, built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles... You know what Paul says in Ephesians 2:19-22, I'm quite sure... And you know well, I'm sure, that Jesus was speaking of Himself (as John says) when He said He would rebuild the temple in three days... So yes, all of us in Christ... we ARE the temple, and at the present time being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Like Abraham so long ago, we are looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God (Hebrews 11:9-10).

(meaning that "sanctuary" of stone of Ezekiel 47 that will exist in Jerusalem which Jesus will build when He returns...

Nope. See directly above.

Christ Jesus is my KING right now, and forever; you well know that I think.

Fantastic! Yes, I do know. :)

...HIS WORD is how we know the PROPER TIMELINE of events that are to happen...

That we agree on, too... We agree on far more, I think, than you seem to think... But we disagree on the nature of some really important things... But that's okay, Davy. It really is. These things that we're talking about are really not "hills to die on." They're just not. Now, that doesn't mean they are "not important," or even "not of great importance." But on the nature of some of these things, good Christians disagree. It's okay. It's really okay. <smile>

...HIS WORD is CERTAIN that HE is NOT YET reigning over ALL nations on earth today.

And this I disagree with. His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, but it will. We can say this about a lot of very Biblical things, but this is what we call "the now and the not yet." Jesus is reigning ~ in heaven, for now ~ right now. His millennial reign is right now. Now, that His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, two things to that:

1. Ethnic Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, which ~ you know this ~ is because they expected Him to come and defeat all their enemies then (to make a long story short). He was crucified, so in their view, He was conquered, not the conquering king they were expecting. We know, however, that He won us the victory by "losing" and thus completing His work of redemption on the cross and ensuring the final victory, which is being won right now, and certainly will be on Jesus's return (again, to make a long story short).​

​

2. And I'll put this succinctly, too, using God's own words in Isaiah 55:8-11, that "(His) thoughts are not (our) thoughts, neither are (our) ways (His) ways... For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are (His) ways higher than (our) ways and (His) thoughts than (our) thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall (His) Word be that goes out from (His) mouth; it shall not return to (Him) empty, but it shall accomplish that which (He) purpose(s), and shall succeed in the thing for which (He) sent it."​

He is reigning over all nations. Right now. Yes, He is your King. And mine. Thanks be to God.

...why aren't you busy spreading The Gospel of Jesus Christ in nations like IRAN, or in JERUSALEM even, and see how the majority of the peoples there react to you when you speak of our Lord Jesus Christ to them!

Well that's a good question. For me personally, I do not have the call and the opportunity to go to those places and do so, but my tithes and offerings that I offer every week at the church I attend certainly go toward supporting Christians there who are. And too ~ and I'm assuming you're and American like me ~ are the fields not white for the harvest here, too?

You and I disagree on quite a few things about the actual Bible Scriptures as written.

We do. But... that's okay. On the essentials, we're in perfect agreement, namely what Paul says to the Philippians, that "Christ Jesus was in the form of God and did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name that is above every name." This is the Gospel... and should be proof to you that Jesus is reigning... now. <smile>

I guess you missed Crosswalk's definition of Amillennialism, as it said that ALL VERSIONS of the theory believe there is NO LITERAL MILLENNIUM.

No, I didn't miss it; it's just wrong. <smile> Well, depending on what the mean by 'literal.' Which you and I both know, but the disagreement is not whether or not it is literal, but really what the nature of that literal-ness is.

... Christ's "thousand years" Millennial reign with His elect priests and kings is NOT YET TODAY.

Now. And His eternal reign... THAT is coming. For sure. <smile>

We easily... know this per God's written Word which points to the coming Antichrist for the future "great tribulation" event setting up a one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations, and demanding that ALL bow in worship to him or the "image of the beast"...

Ugh. <smile> That's now, in the present age. As Paul says in Romans 1, "Claiming to be wise, they (have become) fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things... they (have) exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator." And as John says in 1 John 2, "it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come..." And James says in James 1, regarding trials and tribulations... even great ones <smile>... "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Everything is right on time today according to Bible prophecy...

I most certainly agree with that. <smile>

...there are many brethren which are way off in their alignment of understanding Biblical timelines.

Sure, but that's okay. <smile>

And the Kingdom-Now folks, which you show support for their theory, are definitely deceived, and even prepared...

Hmmmm... well, Kingdom-Now-And-Not-Yet... Jesus Himself said He was King, even then... the Kingdom was here then, 2000-plus years ago, and that His Kingdom was not of this world. So, He has been King ever since then, and the Kingdom has been here ever since. This is His millennial reign. But... not yet in its fullness. That will happen upon His return and after the final Judgment. But to what you say, here, no... <smile>

The false-Messiah comes first, prior to our Lord Jesus' future coming.

Well, the conterfeit messiah... Satan... who will be loosed for a short time ~ at the close of the millennium, when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in to Israel and the partial hardening that is on Israel removed ~ but Jesus will come quickly and... Well, you know. Yeah, Revelation 16:14, 16, Revelation 17:14, Revelation 19:11-21, and Revelation 20:7-10, as I cited above.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 11:13 on the day of Christ's coming, it says "seven thousand" are slain in that great earthquake to occur on that day. I believe those, and the ones of the nations that come up against Jerusalem on the last day, will be 'literally' destroyed, with the "seven thousand" representing a certain group of Satan's angels that come to earth with him for the time of "great tribulation".

You got the interpreation of Revelation 11:13 wrong. Read the context:

Rev 11:11-14
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Verse 11 is speaking about the time when the Spirit of Life (Holy Spirit) come upon the faithful Saints where they were lying dead in the streets of great city. Being dead means their faithful testimony is finished and everyone is rejoiced that the truth has been silenced. That silence lasted symbolically 3-1/2 days. The purpose of the Holy Spirit in the faithful Saints is to move them to come out of the city to avoid the plague that God is about to pour upon His unfaithful city. The relationship between verse 12 and Revealtion 18:4 are same!

Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

God wants to have His chosen and faithful Elect to come out of unfaithful church just like He did with Lot in the days of Sodom as an example. Remember God viewed his unfaithful church spiritually as Sodom in Revelation 11:8, because of her iniquities.

Verse 13 is speaking about the hour of judgment of the unfaithful church (Babylon) which the earthquake signifies! It will be when the tenth (fullness of whatever is in view) of the city fell with seven thousand men are slain. The number seven signifies complete and 1,000 signifies fullness, so ALL and EVERY men WITHIN THE GREAT CITY (unfaithful church) are judged to spiritual death. They are the same people who seek or desire salvation (death in Christ) but cannot find it as God warned in Revelation 9:

Rev 9:4-6
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The Remant of the Great City is, of course, the Faithful Elect who have fled and can "see" the judgment of the city from standing afar off. Note they prophesy about the "hour" of judgment upon Babylon!

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

This is the same hour in Revelation 11:13 "IS" the SIXTH TRUMPET. It is NOT the Second Coming yet. It is the judgment of the whore where the Elect have to come out and PROPHESY judgment upon her as the "eagles" (Matthew 24:28, Luke 17;37). Jesus Christ is the Eagle, and we, Saints, are His Eagles because we relay his message of judgment upon the unfaithful whore! All of this is part of the sixth trumpet. After one hour is finished (we do not know exact it will be), the seventh trumpet shall sound which will be the Second Coming, Rapture, and the Judgment Day.

SELAH!

 

[Davy]

@Davy
Hey! What happened to me being on your ignore list?

Yeah so much for that...

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

I only do that on a temporary basis, so just might be liable to happen again, just so you know.

 

[Davy]

Right, but what's the nature of that destruction, Davy? In different contexts, 'destruction' can mean different things. Just to name two:

1. total annihilation
2. complete ruination

Those can both be understood as a destruction, but the nature of the two are very different.

I thought I'd given enough Scripture reference of what kind of destruction that would be. Did you not check the Bible references I recommended, like the change at the "last trump" per 1 Cor.15 linked to Isaiah 25, or Zech.14 about the leftovers of the nations that will come upon Israel on the last day? Or the 7,000 that are destroyed in the earthquake per Rev.11?

Why are you asking that if you are not... going to read my responses to your posts?

At any rate, you and I agree that on that great day, the Lord will end sin and death forever, and, yes, all the wicked/unsaved will be destroyed ~ not in the sense of annihilation or a wiping from existence, but of complete and utter ruination, loss of all hope of redemption, eternal condemnation, and will be sent away into this, yes, "outer darkness," in which God's grace is completely removed and only His judgment remains, yes, outside the gates of the beloved city Jesus brings with Him... the New Heaven and New Earth... much in the same manner as Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden so long ago, but on a much greater scale... completely without hope of ever returning.

No... not so fast.
The concept of 'death' does NOT end on the day of Christ's future return. The "second death" will exist for the unsaved throughout Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that starts on the day of His future coming. The concept of 'death' is only destroyed AFTER... that "thousand years" period, along with Satan, the wicked, and the abode of hell, as written towards the end of that Revelation 20 chapter.

You should read Ezekiel 44 about the "dead" outside the gates, as Christ's elect will be allowed to go to a dead relative in that future Millennium, but must go through a purification after returning to their priestly chambers. And I feel sorry for those brethren who still think that those "dead" in that time mean dead flesh and bones in the ground somewhere.

The idea of death for that future time is the "second death", the condition of one's soul/spirit still being without Christ and not yet 'born again' of The Spirit, and liable to perish after the 1,000 years with being cast into the "lake of fire", as written by Paul in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54, and per the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5:28-29, and per Rev.20:12-15.

Right, I agree; WE are the temple, Davy. With Christ is the cornerstone, built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles... You know what Paul says in Ephesians 2:19-22, I'm quite sure... And you know well, I'm sure, that Jesus was speaking of Himself (as John says) when He said He would rebuild the temple in three days... So yes, all of us in Christ... we ARE the temple, and at the present time being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Like Abraham so long ago, we are looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God (Hebrews 11:9-10).

We are PART of The Temple of The SPIRIT, "lively stones" as Apostle Peter put it in 1 Peter 2:5. Lord Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, the prophets and Apostles as foundation stones (Ephesians 2). That is what I agree on.

However, there STILL is a difference between the idea of the 'traditional' stone temple in Jerusalem, which is what Apostle Paul was pointing to in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 about the "man of sin" (Antichrist) coming at the end of this world to sit in and exalt himself in place of Christ. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL per the Book of Daniel, which Lord Jesus quoted for the still future "great tribulation" REQUIRES a standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for it to be fulfilled.

So, sorry about this, but we CANNOT try and substitute The Temple of The Spirit with that future 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem which today's orthodox Jews plan to build for the end of this world, prior to Lord Jesus' future coming. A spiritual reference in God's Word is one thing, a literal reference to an actual material object in His Word is another.

Nope. See directly above.

I realize the idea that Lord Jesus will build the future Millennial 'stone'... temple of Ezekiel 47 is not covered in most Churches today. But it is covered in some... Christian Churches, as it should be, because it is... God's written Word that Christ will build that future temple:

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

Messiah, which means The Anointed One, which is the meaning of the word 'Christ', is Who that BRANCH is above.
Jesus Christ is the "Branch" from the "stem of Jesse" per Isaiah 11:1.
Jesus Christ is the "tender plant" of Isaiah 53.
Jesus Christ is the "righteous Branch" of Jeremiah 23:5.
Jesus Christ is the "Branch of righteousness" of Jeremiah 33:15.
Jesus Christ is the "BRANCH" of Zechariah 3:8.

Verse 13 above includes a future special condition that can ONLY point to Christ, that idea of His coming reign as both KING and PRIEST upon that throne.

No flesh born man has ever... fulfilled that sitting as both king and priest upon a throne in this present world. Many have tried, like Nebuchadnezzar, but we see in Daniel 4 what God did to him and how he came out of it worshiping God instead.

So I just don't know what more Bible evidence one needs to know that Zechariah 6:12-13 prophecy is about the future return of Lord Jesus Christ as PRIEST-KING, and HIS future building of the Millennial "sanctuary" of Ezekiel 47.

 

[Davy]

That we agree on, too... We agree on far more, I think, than you seem to think... But we disagree on the nature of some really important things... But that's okay, Davy. It really is. These things that we're talking about are really not "hills to die on." They're just not. Now, that doesn't mean they are "not important," or even "not of great importance." But on the nature of some of these things, good Christians disagree. It's okay. It's really okay. <smile>

I'd be careful about assuming just how much we agree on. I definitely do NOT agree to man's theories of Amillennialism, regardless of how one believes in it.

I instead believe what God's Word teaches 'literally', and that means delegating things spoken of in a spiritual allegorical sense as always pointing to something 'literal' (like The Temple of The Spirit), in contrast to literal objects spoken of, like the traditional stone temple in Jerusalem on earth, and... the future Millennial "sanctuary" on earth of Ezekiel 47. (And I am not Jewish, so I do not put faith in that Ezekiel 47 Scripture about the future "sanctuary" in the holy land after Christ's return because of any birth seed, but I believe it because it is written in The Word of God.)

And this I disagree with. His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, but it will. We can say this about a lot of very Biblical things, but this is what we call "the now and the not yet." Jesus is reigning ~ in heaven, for now ~ right now. His millennial reign is right now. Now, that His reign certainly doesn't look like we want it to look yet, two things to that:

We will just have to disagree on that then, because I know, having been in the U.S. military and been to the middle east, and southeast Asia, and Africa, that there are still many... countries today that as a nation do NOT recognize our Lord Jesus Christ, nor The Bible. And I'm also certain most of my fellow-Christian brethren agree with me on that. It's only 'fringe' groups like the one you follow which push man's theories of Amillennialism that would not agree with me on that.

1. Ethnic Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, which ~ you know this ~ is because they expected Him to come and defeat all their enemies then (to make a long story short). He was crucified, so in their view, He was conquered, not the conquering king they were expecting. We know, however, that He won us the victory by "losing" and thus completing His work of redemption on the cross and ensuring the final victory, which is being won right now, and certainly will be on Jesus's return (again, to make a long story short).​

​

What then, do man's theories of Amillennialism have to do with Christ having accomplished that upon His cross for those who believe? Jesus told us per John 18:36 that His kingdom is not of this world, meaning this present world time. His Kingdom today is established ONLY in The Spirit, like how believers are "lively stones" in that Temple of The Spirit; remember that spiritual idea of Ephesians 2 and per Peter?

Can Christ's enemies, that tear down or burn Church buildings, affect The Temple of The Spirit, i.e., the True Church of The Spirit? NO! of course not. Because that very thing is STILL happening in this present world, Christ's enemies destroying Christian Churches overseas, by those nations which still do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior, that is solid evidence of what Jesus said per John 18:36.

And I will give you this warning about what you are following with man's theories of Amillennialism and false belief that Christ's Kingdom is already manifest in this present world, as I have said before in my posts:

One-world globalists include deceived Christian Churches that support the ideas of man's "one world government". They support the idea of the globalist United Nations apparatus, which supports the ideas of one-world religion. Those same ones have even created the International Court that supposes it has jurisdiction over The United States Constitution and the peoples of The United States of America. And those you follow have the audacity to claim that Christ's Kingdom is already manifest today upon this earth for this present world?? Blind leaders of the blind, Lord Jesus would say no doubt.