You have been unable to address one Amillennialist argument. That's because you cannot refute the truth.
The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory
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That all you have - insults. You cannot even engage in a honest respectful Christian manner. Stick to the truth and Premil will go up in a puff of smoke.
I challenge you to a debate on any subject. Let's see who has biblical corroboration.
Stop avoiding! I challenge you to a debate on the millennium. It is time to put your money where your mouth is.
You mean I'd have to copy ALL... of my previous posts of Bible Scripture that PROVES man's theory of Amillennialism is FALSE?
Nah, you just need to go actually study... what God's Word says as written. I don't have time to spoon feed you. My challenge back to YOU then is, disprove the Scriptures I have posted previously from God's Word.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Just quoting scripture alone proves nothing. You have to actually show how that scripture supposedly refutes Amillennialism, which you never do. You think just making claims is enough. It's not.
You have mortals somehow populating the earth when Jesus returns even though scripture shows all living unbelievers being killed at that point (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12). You do nothing to refute that, but just claim, without any evidence, that somehow mortals will still populate the earth after He returns. Even though all believers will have immortal bodies at that point. So, who exactly are these mortals that you think will populate the earth when Jesus returns? It seems that your answer to that question is that some will be resurrected with mortal bodies and they will be the ones to populate the earth at that time? Is that correct? If so, that is not taught anywhere in scripture. If not, then explain who you think they are.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
No matter how you look at it this is involving a period of time after Christ was born. The reason why we can know it can't fit the here and now is rather simple.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Until this verse is fulfilled first, verse 16 can't come to pass in the meantime. Anyone that proposes verse 12 has already been fulfilled, in any sense, is then spouting Preterist nonsense. No intellectually honest person could possibly propose verse 12 has already been fulfilled in any sense.
Zechariah 14:16-19 mentions plagues if one refuses to come up. We know this is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled since it is nonsensical to also apply verses 16-19 after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Therefore, since verses 16-19 can't even come to pass until verse 12 is fulfilled first, there has to be a period of time after verse 12 is fulfilled but prior to the fulfilling of 1 Corinthians 15:28 that can explain this in verses 16-19---shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles--And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
What all that might look like, I don't know, I couldn't tell you. But what I do know is this. None of it can come to pass until verse 12 comes to pass first. What this proves is this. If one is reading for the first time Zechariah 14, for example, and that they get to verse 12, that verse gives the impression there won't be anyone left of the nations that came against Jerusalem the fact no one could survive that. Except we know it's not literally true that there are no survivors post verse 12 since verses 16-19 undeniably prove otherwise. And that these in verses 16-19 can't be meaning saved saints if they can be punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.
But since this is the OT not the NT, what's recorded in Zechariah 14 doesn't count, right?
What you have going against you is this. Verses 16-19 can't come to pass until after verse 12 has been fulfilled first. Clearly, verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, in any sense. And that verses 16-19 can't be meaning saved saints since one can be punished if they refuse to come up. And that verses 16-19 have to be meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Why am I bringing up 1 Corinthians 15:28 to begin with? Probably because that verse is meaning after the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled and that everything in Zechariah 14 is meaning before the great white throne judgment is fulfilled. And what comes before the great white throne judgment? The thousand years followed by satan's little season.
As if it makes sense, first the thousand years, then satan's little season, then the 2nd coming and the fulfilling of Zechariah 14:12, followed by this in verse 16-17--- shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles--And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Which means now we have to apply that to after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled rather than before it is fulfilled.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you show me where Jesus indicated that what He said in the following passage would one day no longer be true and things would go back to how they used to be again for some inexplicable reason?
John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You think that God made it so that people no longer had to come to Jerusalem to worship Him and instead required people to worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are only to inexplicably again require people to come to Jerusalem to worship Him again. Why would God do that? Doesn't it seem to you that not requiring people to go to Jerusalem to worship Him and instead just requiring them to worship Him in spirit and in truth was an improvement over the old way of doing thins? It certainly does to me. So, why would God want to regress to the old way of doing things again in the future? That makes no sense.
Also, how can I take you seriously about this when you can't even tell me what Zechariah 14:16-19 is about exactly? You have said before that you don't take it literally since doing that would mean animal sacrifices would be reinstated, which you don't believe. So, how do you interpret that passage then?
Yet, you're acting like you're proving something here when all you're doing is speculating.
Can you explain why you interpret verse 12 literally, but you don't interpret verses 16-19 literally? There is no consistency in your approach, which gives the impression that you just interpret it however you need to in order to make it fit your doctrine.
All scripture counts and I've never said otherwise, but what you fail to understand is that the NT sheds light on the more obscure OT. Why you can't understand such a simple thing as that is beyond me. It doesn't even phase you that nothing in the NT, which was written by people who had a far better understanding of OT prophecies than we do, supports premil except for a literal, chronological reading of Revelation 19 and 20. That's just unbelievable to me.
How does that work against me, keeping in mind that I don't take any of it literally?
Clearly? Really? That's obviously based on a literal interpretation of the verse. Yet, you conveniently don't intepret verses 16-19 literally. How can I take it seriously when you're so inconsistent? Why is it that your doctrine is based primarly on difficult and highly debatable passages instead of on clear, straightforward passages? Does that make for a strong doctrine? Not at all.
You think I have Zechariah 14:16-19 against my view, which is a baseless accusation since that would only make sense if I interpreted verse 12 literally like you do. The entire NT is against your view. That would raise a red flag and make you reconsider your interpretation of Zechariah 14:12 and Zechariah 14:16-19, but I guess that passage trumps the entire NT in your mind.
LOL. I knew you had nothing. I was just exposing what we all know: you are all noise and accusations.
This disproves your theory
Psalm 110 Of David
1 The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His feet
In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.
Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.
We are not to slice n' dice God's written Word to fit OUR suppositions.
One must needs to read that prophecy more carefully.
Heb 10:10-13
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
KJV
That idea of Christ's enemies being made His footstool is about His FUTURE REIGN over them. That is what that idea about His "henceforth expecting" is about, i.e, His future "thousand years" reign over them.
This is common sense, because how... can Lord Jesus begin that future reign over all His enemies unless they are made His footstool first? In other words, to control one's enemies they must be seized and made prisoners first. That is what that, "His enemies be made His footstool" means.
Is there further Scripture proof of WHEN Christ's enemies will be subdued, and Jesus will sit upon His throne of inheritance from David, ON EARTH, and thus showing His enemies being made His footstool in the future after His coming? YES! and it is written of in more than one place...
Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
That above throne means Christ's inheritance of David's throne, an earthly throne. It is not where Jesus is right now sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. Even Ezekiel 21 about the three 'overturns' revealed that after the final overturn of David's throne on earth, Christ is Who it is ultimately prepared for, i.e., Christ Himself...
Ezek 21:26-27
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."
KJV
That prophecy about David's throne existing on earth unto all... generations, until Lord Jesus returns to inherit it, was even first written in the Genesis 49:10 prophecy given through Jacob to his 12 sons of what would befall them in the last days...
Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
"Shiloh" is put for Lord Jesus Christ in the above. And that "sceptre shall not depart from Judah" is about the royal sceptre of kings and queens descended from the house of David. It still exists on earth today, but many brethren are hard of hearing about that Bible prophecy. That is the throne of David, still upon this earth, that Lord Jesus will come to sit upon, His inheritance. And that is when His enemies will be... His footstool, His reigning literally over them. Didn't the Revelation 11 prophecy about the final 7th Trumpet even tells us that when it sounds, all... the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ? Jesus is coming to reign over the nations that exist on earth, and that is a strong Biblical proof the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is a LITERAL PERIOD of time on earth.
Matt.25:32
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV
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That certainly is a WILD and UNTRUE statement.
You are only making excuses for NOT ACTUALLY READING my explanations of Bible Scripture.
To LIE like you have by inferring all I do is quote... Scripture, reveals how UNTRUSTWORTHY you really are!
And I'm not surprised, because to believe man's false Amill theory means one MUST SCRAP MANY BIBLE SCRIPTURES AS WRITTEN.
WELCOME TO MY IGNORE LIST! You are not worthy of me wasting my time with.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. I'm not the only one here who thinks your explanations are often a joke. Trust me. You are very delusional.
Most of the time you do nothing to explain clearly why the scriptures you quote support the claims you make about them. That is the TRUTH. I don't count you spewing a bunch of emotional gibberish as you explaining anything.
There's that ridiculous "as written" thing again. Amill interprets the scriptures as written. Sometimes they are written literally, sometimes figuratively, and so on. But, you take "as written" to mean always literal, which is ridiculous.
LOL. What a little baby you are. You clearly have spent a good amount of time responding to me, but now suddenly I'm not worth your time. LOL. You are a comedian. You like to dish it out, but you can't take it. As soon as you get challenged, you run away. It's what you always do. You talk big until someone calls you out on it and then you don't know what to do so you just put someone on your ignore list instead of being willing to accept a challenge to your view. Very cowardly of you.
You are incapable of engaging in a Christian manner. All you have is insults and avoidance. You are full of noise.
Jesus is sat at the right hand
Mark 16:19 records, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them (His disciples), he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Colossians 3:1 says: "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
The writer of the Hebrews addresses the current kingly rule of Christ, whilst again employing Psalm 110:1, in Hebrews 1:1-3, saying, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.”
The writer of the Hebrews also outlines such, whilst also addressing Psalm 110:1 and speaking of Christ, in Hebrews 10:12-13, stating, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting [ekdechomenos] till his enemies be made his footstool.”
The New Testament presents the reign of Judah’s true king as a present reality and shows Christ to be currently fulfilling it in heaven. We find this in Revelation 5:1-6, where we learn, “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.”
Your interpretation is one sided and not even taking into account what Jesus said per the following in Revelation.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Two thrones in view here. The reason why we know that is simple.
and am set down with my Father in his throne. Only Jesus and not one other single person or being in the entire universe is worthy of that other than Christ, period, nothing to debate. As if Jesus was saying---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me with my Father in his throne---rather than what the text actually says---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne
Clearly, my throne and his throne are not the same throne. Clearly, Jesus is yet to sit in His own throne and the following for one clearly proves it.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And since you are not a Preterist, even you can't deny verse 31 hasn't been fulfilled yet. And what does that verse plainly say? When the Son of man shall come in his glory--THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. Is one to believe that Jesus only does that for 24 hours or less? And that He doesn't do that upon the earth but does that somewhere else? Like maybe the moon, or maybe mars, regardless that it is the earth He would obviously, thus undeniably, be returning to?
And IMO, once Matthew 25:31 is fulfilled this is the beginning of the reigning with Christ for a thousand years.
BTW, keep in mind per Matthew 25:31 He sits in His throne of glory first before He does anything that follows in that chapter. Which means he has to be on the earth at the time and that it has to be meaning before the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled. Except Amils have no place for Jesus to sit upon the earth when He returns because Amils have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames since Amils sometimes can't discern figurative language when they see it, so they instead treat it as literal. Meaning 2 Peter 3:10 in this case.
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I and others have presented multiple Scriptures that refute your rejection of Christ's kingship, His rule, His power and His glory. Your fight is with the Book. You explain away the rest of Scripture with your faulty opinion of Rev 20. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 forbids Premil. Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-23, Hebrews 2:6-11, Revelation 3:7, Philippians 2:9-11, Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14 which you ignore forbids Premil.
Ephesians 1:17-23: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.
Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven's power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. Hebrews 1:1-3 confirms: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (megalosune) on high."
The word “Majesty” is interpreted from the Greek word megalosune, meaning greatness, i.e. (figuratively) divinity (often God himself). It speaks of glory, mighty power, magnificence and splendour. The phrase “being the brightness of his glory” literally reads “He is the radiance of his glory.”
Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.
Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.
Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."
This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.
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Hello! That is not a figurative passage. Premils habitually spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual. 2 Peter 3 is climactic and forbids your doctrine. It also exposes the myth that Premils are literalists. They are not. They spiritualize repeated Scripture.
Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.
Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. It will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premillennialists argue.
Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” or “wherein” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in which”:
The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. No one could surely deny that this is talking about the whole natural order here. The old order is going to be completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration so as to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).
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