The Scroll with Seven Seals

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Ronald David Bruno

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Ronald, if you had considered what I had written it was not that of a Preterist. From my reading of the 7th bowl judgement, it pertains to the last centaury with the two witness signs given happening in 1926 and 1948. From my reading of the 6th bowl judgement, it pertains to our present time period and it will conclude within the next 25 or so years from not. My two presented views just given are not consistent with what a Preterist would argue as he would be suggesting that both of these bowl judgements happened before the end of the first centaury and that they are not relevant to this present time period.

I thought that you were being comical in what you believed I had presented. As for the great tribulation, the events of this present time are no where near what will happen during the Great Tribulation which I understand is still for the distant future.

Shalom
Well, at least you aren't a Preterist. Sorry I jumped the gun on that one. But you do have something in common with them. Far out symbolic interpretations.

But looking back, I now remember one previous debate we had about the Second Coming and I guess I mixed you up with another poster who was a Preterest - my mistake.
I think I need to make a journal of who's who. That way I will know and log your beliefs for future reference.
For instance, in that other thread you stated that only those who got their heads chopped off (Rev. 20:4), would be the ONLY CHRISTIANS experiencing the First Resurrection and that the rest of us would have to wait until after the 1000 years for the Second Resurrection.<<
That belief is wrong. All Christians will be resurrected at His Coming. Those left behind were either on the fence, not yet committed and/or possibly the remnant Israel.
The other belief you have about the two witnesses coming in 1926 and 1948 is also wrong. They have not yet arrived. The Antichrist, who rules The world for 3 1/2 years, is in conflict with them, so when he takes control and is empowered by Satan, he kills them. They literally lay in the street dead for 3 days and the world celebrates. That gives me a thought that if every one celebrates their death (because the world has suffered the plagues they summoned on the earth), then we have already been resurrected. Or maybe we are resurrected at the same time? So some things are not clear, but others are.
Your problem is, you distorted a few key events and it throws your whole concept out of wack.
Anyways, I just have to disagree.

Peace and God Bless
 
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Stumpmaster

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Revelation 5:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

This is the scroll opened in chapter 6, leading up to half an hour of silence in heaven, and seven angels are given seven trumpets.

What is this scroll, and what does it say?

Jeremiah shows us a sealed scroll which is the deed to land, only unsealed to prove a claim.

Ezekiel shows us a scroll written within and without with lamentations and mourning and woe.

Is this scroll the "title deed to the earth", as some say? Is it a scroll of judgement?

Something different from these?

My view is that this is the scroll of judgment as Jesus claims His chosen nation of Israel.

Much love!
I think maybe the Lamb uses His mouth to take the scroll, or maybe changes shape into the human form of Jesus whenever necessary. Anyway, the contents of the scroll has been disclosed, which is the whole point of it being opened one seal at a time, and now we know what contributing factors are in play prior to Judgment Day.

Rev 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
 

Curtis

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It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:"

God the Father gave His Son Jesus Christ the book of Revelation. Christ sent His angel to the apostle/prophet John to write down the entire Revelation. This Revelation is for "the servants of Christ", to show them things which would shortly come to pass, and would continue until the New Heavens and the New Earth have been established. So Revelation gives us an overview of significant events from the time of Christ to the time when "time shall be no more". It is primarily for Christians, but it is also a huge warning sign to those who have not been saved.

The book of revelation that we are all told to read, can’t possibly also be a scroll that no one but Jesus is worthy to open.

Everyone is worthy to read the book of revelation.

You need to rethink that one.

Maranatha
 
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Curtis

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Ronald, if you had considered what I had written it was not that of a Preterist. From my reading of the 7th bowl judgement, it pertains to the last centaury with the two witness signs given happening in 1926 and 1948. From my reading of the 6th bowl judgement, it pertains to our present time period and it will conclude within the next 25 or so years from not. My two presented views just given are not consistent with what a Preterist would argue as he would be suggesting that both of these bowl judgements happened before the end of the first centaury and that they are not relevant to this present time period.

I thought that you were being comical in what you believed I had presented. As for the great tribulation, the events of this present time are no where near what will happen during the Great Tribulation which I understand is still for the distant future.

Shalom

The two witnesses witness for 3.5 years, and kill with flaming fire those who attack them, and no one can harm them, until the antichrist is killed, rises from the dead possessed by Satan, and he is given power to make war on the saints, and to kill the two witnesses, who lie dead for 3.5 days in public view - while the world parties in celebration of their death, then they are raised from the dead and taken to heaven, seen by all.

That can’t possibly refer to past events.

You need to rethink that one.

Maranatha
 
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Enoch111

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The book of revelation that we are all told to read, can’t possibly also be a scroll that no one but Jesus is worthy to open. Everyone is worthy to read the book of revelation.
Since it is Christ Himself who opened that scroll SO THAT everyone could read what was in it, you just defeated your own objection. Up yo that point it could not be opened by anyone.
 

Curtis

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Since it is Christ Himself who opened that scroll SO THAT everyone could read what was in it, you just defeated your own objection. Up yo that point it could not be opened by anyone.
It didn’t need opened, because it was never sealed.

You’re engaging in a tautology of circular reasoning.
 
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Jay Ross

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For instance, in that other thread you stated that only those who got their heads chopped off (Rev. 20:4), would be the ONLY CHRISTIANS experiencing the First Resurrection and that the rest of us would have to wait until after the 1000 years for the Second Resurrection.<<
That belief is wrong. All Christians will be resurrected at His Coming. Those left behind were either on the fence, not yet committed and/or possibly the remnant Israel.

And what is the basis/bias in making the above comment? Do you hold to a pre-trib understanding that Christ is coming sooooooon, and as such, you will have been resurrected before Satan is kicked out of heaven, after being judged in Heaven and imprisoned for many days, i.e. the 1,000 years, as mentioned in Rev 20:3.

In your invalidation of my above understanding, are you claiming that Revelation 20:4-6 is also invalid as well?

Based on your understanding, is your timeline of end time events valid?
 
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Jay Ross

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The other belief you have about the two witnesses coming in 1926 and 1948 is also wrong. They have not yet arrived. The Antichrist, who rules The world for 3 1/2 years, is in conflict with them, so when he takes control and is empowered by Satan, he kills them. They literally lay in the street dead for 3 days and the world celebrates. That gives me a thought that if every one celebrates their death (because the world has suffered the plagues they summoned on the earth), then we have already been resurrected. Or maybe we are resurrected at the same time? So some things are not clear, but others are.
Your problem is, you distorted a few key events and it throws your whole concept out of wack.

The two witnesses witness for 3.5 years, and kill with flaming fire those who attack them, and no one can harm them, until the antichrist is killed, rises from the dead possessed by Satan, and he is given power to make war on the saints, and to kill the two witnesses, who lie dead for 3.5 days in public view - while the world parties in celebration of their death, then they are raised from the dead and taken to heaven, seen by all.

That can’t possibly refer to past events.

It seems that in your rebuttals you have both distorted what I had written.

You have ignored the expression that I used, i.e. "the two witness signs" and ignored the word "signs" and jumped to the wrong conclusion as to what I was talking about. If I had been writing about the "two witnesses" in Rev 11, then, I would have written, "the two witnesses," but as i was talking about the stated events in the 7th Bowl Judgement happening, i.e. "Rev 16:19; - Now the great city was divided into three parts, {1948}, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, {1926}. to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. NKJV," was making reference to two distinct events that had a definable time stamp as to the year in which they both occurred. The third sign, "the cities of the nations fell," is a little more difficult to pin point to a particular year. Many cities in the middle east, during WW1 "fell," but also there are many cities in the middle east that have been levelled as a result of the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East since WW1 and are happening within the worlds ongoing events, but not on a global scale.

Scripture tells us that the observation of two witnesses, is enough to determine if something is true and as such we know, from history, that Babylon was recognised before God, in 1926, when Britain and France divided the middle East up between them and in doing so, re-established a nation in the land of Babylon, after the completion/fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy that Babylon would be laid desolate and be devastated for a period of two ages, and that the UN in 1948 partitioned Jerusalem into three portions such that the control of each of the partitions could be handed to Britain, Jordan and the UN.

So, as I am suggesting, the 7th Bowl Judgement has already happened. Then where the traditional English Translations suggest that there will be two earthquakes, occurring during this bowl judgement and no significant great earthquake(s) have occurred during the timespan of the 7th bowl judgement, then the English translations of "seismos" does not give the right context of what will/has happen during the 7th bowl judgement. As I have previously argued, I believe that meaning of the Greek word, "seismos," is better understood, if the word is translated as "turmoil," were the "turmoil" mentioned in this bowl judgement is referring to WW1 and WW2, which has not occurred up and until now, and has happened during the timespan of this bowl judgement.

Now if you are going to say I am emphatically wrong, in your opinion, then please ensure that we are both talking about the same topic and not at cross purposes.

Shalom
 

Davy

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Revelation 5:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

This is the scroll opened in chapter 6, leading up to half an hour of silence in heaven, and seven angels are given seven trumpets.

What is this scroll, and what does it say?

Jeremiah shows us a sealed scroll which is the deed to land, only unsealed to prove a claim.

Ezekiel shows us a scroll written within and without with lamentations and mourning and woe.

Is this scroll the "title deed to the earth", as some say? Is it a scroll of judgement?

Something different from these?

My view is that this is the scroll of judgment as Jesus claims His chosen nation of Israel.

Much love!

The book, or scroll, with seven seals shown in Revelation 5, which only Christ was found worthy to open, represents the 7 main Signs of the end leading up to His return. That is why The Lamb (Jesus) is shown opening the Seals beginning in Revelation 6.

So no, that "book" (or scroll) is not something different other than what that Scripture declares it to be.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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And what is the basis/bias in making the above comment?
In the realm of the various interpretations of Revelation, we can all make claims and post opinions and none are rock solid.
I just merely pointed out your claim. The Bible does not claim that only Christians who are decapitated will be resurrected. I can easily prove that by pointing out the death caused by wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, fire and brimstone. This is described all through the seals, trumpets and bowls. So right off the bat you fail to recognize this simple series of events and to take them literally.
As far as "two witness signs", attributing anything in the seals, trumpets or bowls as happening in WW1 or WW2 is also wrong. Why?
Because after the devastation is done by the four horsemen, 25% of the population of the earth is dead.
Just for the record, in 1917 there were 1.9 billion and about 2 million died from WW1. (just over 1%)
In 1950nthere were about 2.5 billion and about 75 million died in WW2 (3%)
Do you hold to a pre-trib understanding that Christ is coming sooooooon, and as such, you will have been resurrected before Satan is kicked out of heaven, after being judged in Heaven and imprisoned for many days, i.e. the 1,000 years, as mentioned in Rev 20:3.
I am not Pre-trib. I am Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath. Satan will have 3 1/2 years to do His thing and then he will be locked up.
In your invalidation of my above understanding, are you claiming that Revelation 20:4-6 is also invalid as well?
That is valid. It is just not all will die in that fashion. You think Muslims terroists will chop off 5 billion heads? Come on.
I used to think decapitation was the signature of the Antichrist, who would be a Muslim. But now I am not sure after this pandemic. Could be Gates? Whoever is in charge of this One World Government, they may use Muslim countries to attack Israel and Israel in turn to respond, accomplishing possibly hundreds of millions of deaths - as just part of their whole depopulation agenda!
 
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Jay Ross

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@Ronald David Bruno Please note that i can tell you the truth once, and then tell you the same truth twice and if you will not listen, then there is no point continuing telling you the truth a third time. Your mind is already made up as to what your truth is and from what I read it is not actually based on what is recorded in the scriptures. You are more interested is tell others that they are wrong, than to slowly meditate on what they may tell you and actually comprehend what they are telling you. You can be likened to a horse that has been lead to safe drinking water for a drink, but the one that has lead the horse to the water, cannot force that horse to drink and so quench it thirst.

Have a good day now.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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@Ronald David Bruno Please note that i can tell you the truth once, and then tell you the same truth twice and if you will not listen, then there is no point continuing telling you the truth a third time. Your mind is already made up as to what your truth is and from what I read it is not actually based on what is recorded in the scriptures. You are more interested is tell others that they are wrong, than to slowly meditate on what they may tell you and actually comprehend what they are telling you. You can be likened to a horse that has been lead to safe drinking water for a drink, but the one that has lead the horse to the water, cannot force that horse to drink and so quench it thirst.

Have a good day now.
So you know the truth about the book of Revelation. Lol
You can spare me your truths and go and have a nice life!