The Scroll with Seven Seals

[Ronald David Bruno]

If we look at Revelation 16:18, then what is being described are the great turmoils that occurred during the two world wars that occurred during WW1 and WW2 which is in line with the two confirming events that occurred after each world war, namely the recognition of Babylon with the establishment of Iraq in 1926, and the partitioning of Jerusalem into three politically controlled districts in 1948

.
Comical, it is amazing how you can dissect a scripture and then put it back together and come up with something abstract and completely unrelated to the vision presented - wow - spare me. Oh yes there will be turmoil during the Great Tribulation, especially after the Great earthquake that moves the earth out of it's place along with leveling mountains and islands and all high rise buildings.

 

[Jay Ross]

Or we could say, there arose a great shaking in the sea, no? I don't think we need to redefine seismos because it's used in relation to the water.


We argee in this!

:)

Matthew 27:51-54 KJV
51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Quake, from the Greek "Seis", and earthquake, from the Greek, "Seismos". The earth quaked, the rocks torn, the graves opened.

When the centurion saw the earthquake, he knew something was different about this execution.

Much love!

Marks, your shortcomings are showing when you claim that the Greek root, G:4579 has the same meaning as G:4578. Yes G:4578 draws from the Greek root G:4579, but the meanings for both Greek root words are very different.

Sailors, when they are at sea, are not afraid of the wind, but they are afraid of the waves that the wind causes when they get in close quarters with the land as the reflected waves off of the shore line can cause monster waves which can rise up and swamp the boat. Many a boat is sunk when crossing a bar, not because of the wind, but because of the turmoil in the waves as they are crossing the bar from the interactions of the incoming wave with the reflected waves travelling in the opposite direction back out over the bar.

It was because the centurion saw the turmoil in the people, as the events that took place, on the day that Jesus was crucified, and also after Christ's resurrection, he came to his recorded conclusion. The earth quaking, was only a very small part of the events that occurred over a number of days, on which the centurion based his conclusion. Over this period of time there was a great commotion going on between those that had Jesus crucified and those that saw Jesus as the promised Messiah. It seems that you are not taking into account all of the evidence presented in these few verses above that you have quoted.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

.
Comical, it is amazing how you can dissect a scripture and then put it back together and come up with something abstract and completely unrelated to the vision presented - wow - spare me. Oh yes there will be turmoil during the Great Tribulation, especially after the Great earthquake that moves the wary out of it's place along with leveling mountains and islands and all high rise buildings.

Yes I think you are comical with your response.

 

[marks]

Marks, your shortcomings are showing when you claim that the Greek root, G:4579 has the same meaning as G:4578.

I'm sorry, I don't recall saying these were the same. I showed their usage. Perhaps reread my post and make few edits?

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

I'm sorry, I don't recall saying these were the same. I showed their usage. Perhaps reread my post and make few edits?

Much love!

Perhaps the Kiss principle in reading the scriptures is not working for you. Your understanding and justification is certainly not convincing enough for me to concede the point that I am making.

Perhaps if you took the time to contemplate what I have written the light switch might just be turn on for you and understanding come to a better understanding.

Your response was a little disappointing for one who love to teach others, because you are suggesting that I might be a "little daft," or short on working brain cells, in not understand your rebuttal for what it was worth.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

Keep in mind that Revelation covers what was what is and what is to be. Notice in verse 3 of this chapter, no one in heaven or in earth was worthy to open the scroll. This means the vision was before the death and resurrection if Christ. Then in verse 5 He appears as if He just accomplished the task. Then He was given the scroll and He opened it then. He didn't wait 2000 years, He opened it. John MacArthur calls it the Title Deed. I guess - when He accomplishes all, Rev. 11:15-19 states the kingdom's of the world become the kingdom of our Lord - so yes it is.
Let's back up. The scrill is also like a play book. All the events are inside but it doesn't when He opened it events started to happen.
To prove this look at what is said with each seal as it is opened: the angel says "come and see", meaning I'll show you what this represents, bring you to another time/vision. And since heaven is outside our time domain the scroll is extra-dimensional, so in heaven All things are seen at once, but for us, God shows them one by one, different vantage points of a transparent sphere of events that overlap and accumulate. It is difficult to view these events as being chronological. Jack Hayford writ a book, E-Quake. He said that the scroll was the orders and the Trumpets and Bowls, the actions. He also pointed out that the great earthquake was pivotal and shown as different vantage points to two scriptures Rev. 6:12-14 & Rev. 16:18-20. These are one in the same, describing the same events, just with a different vantage point. This shows us the complexity of this book, which is why it is so confusing and there are many views. It's been exhausting my comprehension for 25 years trying configure it out. I think I am comfortable with my view and then see something else that further alters it . I don't really think any of us will fully get it. Did God purpose this book to give all generations the idea of that Christ could return at any time? But Jesus tells exactly when this will happen in Matthew 24:14, and that has just recently happened.

I missed something. When has the gospel been preached to the whole world?

Man can never reach the WHOLE world, no matter how hard we try, which is why God has to send an angel to preach the gospel, especially in some of the Muslim and Hindu nations.

The next verse, Matthew 24:15 is the abomination of desolation, a mid tribulation event, and verses 29 and 30 is a mid-trib rapture.

And I agree with not having it all figured out - no one does - but a lot of people are convinced they have proof- texted their way into knowing everything there is to know about end time eschatology.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

Or we could say, there arose a great shaking in the sea, no? I don't think we need to redefine seismos because it's used in relation to the water.


We argee in this!

:)

Matthew 27:51-54 KJV
51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Quake, from the Greek "Seis", and earthquake, from the Greek, "Seismos". The earth quaked, the rocks torn, the graves opened.

When the centurion saw the earthquake, he knew something was different about this execution.

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake (seismos); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken (seis) of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Much love!

Are you saying the 6th seal is at the death of Jesus?

If so, no way.

Maranatha

 

[marks]

because you are suggesting that I might be a "little draft,"

I was suggesting nothing of the kind, only that you revisit my post and your response.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are you saying the 6th seal is at the death of Jesus?

If so, no way.

Maranatha

No, I'm only showing word usage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Perhaps the Kiss principle in reading the scriptures is not working for you. Your understanding and justification is certainly not convincing enough for me to concede the point that I am making.

Perhaps if you took the time to contemplate what I have written the light switch might just be turn on for you and understanding come to a better understanding.

Your response was a little disappointing for one who love to teach others, because you are suggesting that I might be a "little draft," or short on working brain cells, in not understand your rebuttal for what it was worth.

Shalom

Not much really to reply to here, as it's all Ad Hominem. I can never understand how you find ME more interesting than the Bible!

Much love!

 

[jessiblue]

missed something. When has the gospel been preached to the whole world?

Hi, Curtis…. I think the answer might lie in Mark 13 (and other places).

Mark 13:9
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

God's elect will be delivered up for religious reasons, but mainly because they are Christians. It will be a very religious time because someone (Satan), who claims to be our Lord, will be standing in the holy place performing miracles in the sight of men.

[10] And the gospel must first be published among all nations.The Greek word for "published" is "kerussoto" and it means "to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel), preach, proclaim, publish."

Here is your answer:

[11] But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit Himself will speak directly through the mouths of God's elect. Wow! It hasn’t come to pass yet, but it shall happen soon!

jb

 

[Jay Ross]

Not much really to reply to here, as it's all Ad Hominem. I can never understand how you find ME more interesting than the Bible!

Much love!

Why do I find Marks more interesting than the Bible? The reality is that my interest in you is to correct all of your wrong assumptions because I focus on what the Bible actually states, not on the miss understanding that you post.

Now you started posting on this forum a few months after I did, and have pen nearly 18,000 post, while I on the other hand have not yet reached 4,000 posts.

To date you have not provided any evidence so far that would convince me to alter my understanding of the context of the scriptures, whereas I note that your preferred method of reading the scriptures, does lead you into the misconception that you post.

Shalom

 

[jessiblue]

Hi, Curtis…. I think the answer might lie in Mark 13 (and other places).

Mark 13:9
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

God's elect will be delivered up for religious reasons, but mainly because they are Christians. It will be a very religious time because someone (Satan), who claims to be our Lord, will be standing in the holy place performing miracles in the sight of men.

[10] And the gospel must first be published among all nations.The Greek word for "published" is "kerussoto" and it means "to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel), preach, proclaim, publish."

Here is your answer:

[11] But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit Himself will speak directly through the mouths of God's elect. Wow! It hasn’t come to pass yet, but it shall happen soon!

jb

Also, the Two Witnesses will be here, whom God will give supernatural abilities to allow them to stand and witness for God's people. They are true believers who know and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. jb

 

[Harvest 1874]

Revelation 5:1-10 KJV
1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

This is the scroll opened in chapter 6, leading up to half an hour of silence in heaven, and seven angels are given seven trumpets.

What is this scroll, and what does it say?

Jeremiah shows us a sealed scroll which is the deed to land, only unsealed to prove a claim.

Ezekiel shows us a scroll written within and without with lamentations and mourning and woe.

Is this scroll the "title deed to the earth", as some say? Is it a scroll of judgement?

Something different from these?

My view is that this is the scroll of judgment as Jesus claims His chosen nation of Israel.

Much love!

For a more through look at Chapter Five and the Introduction to the Seven Seals please see our blog post found on this forum under "The Study of Revelation, Part 67" entitled Revelation Chapter 5

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I missed something. When has the gospel been preached to the whole world?

Man can never reach the WHOLE world, no matter how hard we try, which is why God has to send an angel to preach the gospel, especially in some of the Muslim and Hindu nations.

Strong's Concordance states that "ethnos" is translated as "nation" or "nations" 67 times and "people" or "pagans" only 3 times.
Obviously within nations there are hundreds of tribes and languages. Missionary efforts have been successful in their ministries to remote tribes.

The Jesus Film Project reports
that the film has been translated into 1390 languages and has been seen in every country of the world since its release in 1979.
This film depicts the life, ministry and death of Jesus - the Gospel.
Through use by The JESUS Film Project, and more than 1,500 Christian agencies, it has been viewed by billions since 1979.
So the Gospel has been delivered to every nation.
In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now 2.65 billion. With 7.8 billion In the world, that is about 1/3.
God's work is getting done spreading the gospel with an outward calling.
Has every tribe been blessed? Possibly, we are very close. In our generation we'd see in National Geographics, a discovery of a lost, hidden tribe somewhere - haven't heard of any such discoveries recently.
In 2014 there were only about 300 million people (5%) in the world who spoke languages that the Bible had not been translated into. Since then many languages have been added and those numbers have shrunk.
We are close. A final inward calling by the angel will be the final call.
To coin a phrase, "It's a small world after all."

The next verse, Matthew 24:15 is the abomination of desolation, a mid tribulation event, and verses 29 and 30 is a mid-trib rapture.

The AOD to me is the Antichrist who is an abomination causes desolation in Israel. He gathers many nations against her and leaves it desolate. And the Temple being rebuilt ... that's another topic.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes I think you are comical with your respI9onse.

For just a moment, I read your post, shook my head, realized it was another Preterist interpretation and I've debated with you guys numerous times and so don't care to any more. So for a moment it was funny, then sad.
You don't see the signs in front of you. Are you not experiencing the distress in the world that has grown since March 2020? We will see many deaths from pestilence (manmade or other) and there will come a horse of a different color. War will break out in Israel, most likely an attack from Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and others that surround Israel.Then other wars, famine and death billions. You'll scratch head and think ... "Gee maybe this is the Great Tribulation."

 

[Curtis]

Strong's Concordance states that "ethnos" is translated as "nation" or "nations" 67 times and "people" or "pagans" only 3 times.
Obviously within nations there are hundreds of tribes and languages. Missionary efforts have been successful in their ministries to remote tribes.

The Jesus Film Project reports
that the film has been translated into 1390 languages and has been seen in every country of the world since its release in 1979.
This film depicts the life, ministry and death of Jesus - the Gospel.
Through use by The JESUS Film Project, and more than 1,500 Christian agencies, it has been viewed by billions since 1979.
So the Gospel has been delivered to every nation.
In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now 2.65 billion. With 7.8 billion In the world, that is about 1/3.
God's work is getting done spreading the gospel with an outward calling.
Has every tribe been blessed? Possibly, we are very close. In our generation we'd see in National Geographics, a discovery of a lost, hidden tribe somewhere - haven't heard of any such discoveries recently.
In 2014 there were only about 300 million people (5%) in the world who spoke languages that the Bible had not been translated into. Since then many languages have been added and those numbers have shrunk.
We are close. A final inward calling by the angel will be the final call.
To coin a phrase, "It's a small world after all."



The AOD to me is the Antichrist who is an abomination causes desolation in Israel. He gathers many nations against her and leaves it desolate. And the Temple being rebuilt ... that's another topic.

God sends a preaching angel to give the gospel for a reason.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God sends a preaching angel to give the gospel for a reason.

Last call.

 

[Enoch111]

What is this scroll, and what does it say?

It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:"

God the Father gave His Son Jesus Christ the book of Revelation. Christ sent His angel to the apostle/prophet John to write down the entire Revelation. This Revelation is for "the servants of Christ", to show them things which would shortly come to pass, and would continue until the New Heavens and the New Earth have been established. So Revelation gives us an overview of significant events from the time of Christ to the time when "time shall be no more". It is primarily for Christians, but it is also a huge warning sign to those who have not been saved.

 

[Jay Ross]

For just a moment, I read your post, shook my head, realized it was another Preterist interpretation and I've debated with you guys numerous times and so don't care to any more. So for a moment it was funny, then sad.
You don't see the signs in front of you. Are you not experiencing the distress in the world that has grown since March 2020? We will see many deaths from pestilence (manmade or other) and there will come a horse of a different color. War will break out in Israel, most likely an attack from Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and others that surround Israel.Then other wars, famine and death billions. You'll scratch head and think ... "Gee maybe this is the Great Tribulation."

Ronald, if you had considered what I had written it was not that of a Preterist. From my reading of the 7th bowl judgement, it pertains to the last centaury with the two witness signs given happening in 1926 and 1948. From my reading of the 6th bowl judgement, it pertains to our present time period and it will conclude within the next 25 or so years from not. My two presented views just given are not consistent with what a Preterist would argue as he would be suggesting that both of these bowl judgements happened before the end of the first centaury and that they are not relevant to this present time period.

I thought that you were being comical in what you believed I had presented. As for the great tribulation, the events of this present time are no where near what will happen during the Great Tribulation which I understand is still for the distant future.

Shalom