The salvation journey.

[Titus]

A work which is done to earn something is a work of merit.

You can deny it 1000 times. It is and always will be a work of merit

The jews were using the work of circumcision as a work of merit. Paul called the out on it. He even called the fools.

Why is their work of merit any different than your works of merit? Can you explain that?



You failed to answer many question

PAUL SAID IF IT IS OF GRACE IT NOT OF WORKS. OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.

Answer why paul was in error. Otherwise. I will consider you as you have always been unresponsive. I believe for people who see the room, have seen enough to see our different points of views. And have the ability to chose now.

Then faith is merit.
Faith is a work that must be done to be saved.
You must obey this commandment to be saved. Obeying commandments is works.

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

You must work the works of God to be saved, John 6:28-29.
You are doing a work.
According to your definition of works. You are guilty of the very same thing you accuse Mr Bass.
You are merting your salvation by doing a work(faith) to be saved.

It doesn't matter if you say a thousand times, doing a work to be saved is always a work of mert.
Because it is just not so.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You can not even listen to a person

I never said obedience is a work of merit.

I said many people obey as a work of meriting salvation.

You have not changed one bit. I feel sorry for you

post #176 you posted "But if your doing works of obedience to try to be saved. Your trying to earn salvation. and you will not be saved either". Other posts or yours as this can be cited.

So you most certainly have been referring to obedience to God as a work or merit, a work done to earn salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is so sad how so many are blind that cannot see keeping the commandments in Jesus' gospel is not legalism.

Not related: Friend ,would you recommend some good study material on calvinism?
I need more learning on this false doctrine. I know the Bible is the best study aid.

Yes. If we substitute "obedience" with "legalism" then Hebrews 5:9 reads "Christ is the Author of salvation to all who are legalists". Christ Himself learned legalism, Hebrews 5:8.

Defining "Legalism"

Above is a link I refer to when people start throwing around the word "legalism". The link gives the history of the word legalism and how this word is NOT even found in the Bible. The word legalism was coined about the time Luther invented his faith onlyism and if you did not agree with faith only then they needed a name to call you so they invented the word 'legalist'. The word itself has no real meaning, it only means what a person wants it to mean. The above link is a very good read and is not long and I encourage you to read it, especially the last 3 paragraphs.

 

[Titus]

Yes. If we substitute "obedience" with "legalism" then Hebrews 5:9 reads "Christ is the Author of salvation to all who are legalists". Christ Himself learned legalism, Hebrews 5:8.

Defining "Legalism"

Above is a link I refer to when people start throwing around the word "legalism". The link gives the history of the word legalism and how this word is NOT even found in the Bible. The word legalism was coined about the time Luther invented his faith onlyism and if you did not agree with faith only then they needed a name to call you so they invented the word 'legalist'. The word itself has no real meaning, it only means what a person wants it to mean. The above link is a very good read and is not long and I encourage you to read it, especially the last 3 paragraphs.

Thanks ,I will

 

[Titus]

Yes. If we substitute "obedience" with "legalism" then Hebrews 5:9 reads "Christ is the Author of salvation to all who are legalists". Christ Himself learned legalism, Hebrews 5:8.

Defining "Legalism"

Above is a link I refer to when people start throwing around the word "legalism". The link gives the history of the word legalism and how this word is NOT even found in the Bible. The word legalism was coined about the time Luther invented his faith onlyism and if you did not agree with faith only then they needed a name to call you so they invented the word 'legalist'. The word itself has no real meaning, it only means what a person wants it to mean. The above link is a very good read and is not long and I encourage you to read it, especially the last 3 paragraphs.

btw, as I get to know you, I'm more convinced we are brothers in Christ, Romans 16:16

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If water baptism is a work of merit:

Water baptism is a work of merit if it is being done in order to receive, or merit something in return, Namely salvation, or eternal life, or justification, whatever you want to call it

Then disobedience against the commandments of Jesus and His apostles preaching is the only way not to merit our salvation.
For Jesus commanded it, Mark 16:15-16.
The apostles preached it, Acts 2:38; 1Peter 3:20-21

Mark 16 is questionable. Is it spirit baptism, or even is it truly scripture. the fact Jesus did not mention it one in John when he multiple times mentioned that belief is how one is born again and lack of faith is the means of condemnation.

Acts 2: 38 does not say baptism is required. It is peter asking those who recieved remission of sin, due to repentance, To be baptized,. And if we read, the people who repented were baptized.

1 Peter 3 says not the removal of filth (sin) of the flesh (soul)

And makes it clear it is an answer of a good conscious to God.

Not a means to merit salvation

Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly recieved his word were baptized(merited according to no works salvationists) and that day about three thousand souls were added to them(through merit because they obeyed by being baptized).

Nope. They did not merit salvation, they were baptized because they were saved.

Obedience =merit to the faith alone doctrine

Once again,

Obedience is only merit if you are doing it to merit salvation.

If your doing it out of love and out os gratitude and out of faith because God loved and saved you first. it is not a work of merit.

disobedience to Jesus gospel = salvation, Matthew 7:21-23

The gospel is believe in the name of Jesus and you will be saved
The gospel is that God sent his son that whoever believes will never perish, but live forever.
The gospel is whoever believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe is condemned already
The gospel is call out on the name of jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
The gospel is we are cursed because we have failed to live up to the standard of God. But God in his infinite grace sent his son, that he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we may be made the righteousness of Christ in him

The gospel is the death and burial and resurrection of Christ.

The interpretation of water baptism by no works salvationists:

Mark 16:15-16
He who believes and is baptized(merit) will be saved
( through merit if you obey this command to be baptized)
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Apparently obeying Jesus is meriting salvation to some.

If water baptism is a work of merit:
Then disobedience against the commandments of Jesus and His apostles preaching is the only way not to merit our salvation.
For Jesus commanded it, Mark 16:15-16.
The apostles preached it, Acts 2:38; 1Peter 3:20-21

Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly recieved his word were baptized(merited according to no works salvationists) and that day about three thousand souls were added to them(through merit because they obeyed by being baptized).

Obedience =merit to the faith alone doctrine

disobedience to Jesus gospel = salvation, Matthew 7:21-23

The interpretation of water baptism by no works salvationists:

Mark 16:15-16
He who believes and is baptized(merit) will be saved
( through merit if you obey this command to be baptized)
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Apparently obeying Jesus is meriting salvation to some.

Your stuck on three verses and totally ignore the many many other verses that do not even mention water baptism

Its sad that satan has perverted the gospel by adding a work of salvation. No different really then perverting the gospel by adding circumcision to the gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then faith is merit.
Faith is a work that must be done to be saved.

Faith is not merit

Even jesus said, it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent

We are saved by grace period. Not works

We will only accept the gift God is offering us through faith in his work, his promises and his mercy and grace.

Faith comes by hearing,m and hearing by the word of God

As I explained to someone earlier. Me having faith in someone else to save me, because I have become bankrupt and through repentance have realised how depraved and lost I am. is not me meriting or saving myself

]

You must obey this commandment to be saved. Obeying commandments is works.

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

You must work the works of God to be saved, John 6:28-29.
You are doing a work.
According to your definition of works. You are guilty of the very same thing you accuse Mr Bass.
You are meriting your salvation by doing a work(faith) to be saved.

It doesn't matter if you say a thousand times, doing a work to be saved is always a work of mert.
Because it is just not so.

Merit is working for a reward.

Let me try to put it this way. You go out, and you work for your company, You merit a paycheck
'
What you are describing here is someone else going out to do the work. and me getting paid for the work someone else completed. Because I was unable to do the work.

I did not merit the wage or reward. the other person merited it on my behalf.

I suggest you give God the credit where God is due. and stop trying to take credit from him.

Again,

Faith is not merit

Even jesus said, it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent

We are saved by grace period. Not works

We will only accept the gift God is offering us through faith in his work, his promises and his mercy and grace.

Faith comes by hearing,m and hearing by the word of God

As I explained to someone earlier. Me having faith in someone else to save me, because I have become bankrupt and through repentance have realised how depraved and lost I am. is not me meriting or saving myself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

post #176 you posted "But if your doing works of obedience to try to be saved. Your trying to earn salvation. and you will not be saved either". Other posts or yours as this can be cited.

So you most certainly have been referring to obedience to God as a work or merit, a work done to earn salvation.

Yes, IF YOU ARE DOING WORKS TO MERIT SALVATION.

That is not saying ALL WORKS are works of merit

Sadly. You have an issue like mary in the catholic thread of having comprehension issues as you can not comprehend what people say, or just blatantly twist what they say to suit your own needs..

 

[Titus]

Water baptism is a work of merit if it is being done in order to receive, or merit something in return, Namely salvation, or eternal life, or justification, whatever you want to call it


Mark 16 is questionable. Is it spirit baptism, or even is it truly scripture. the fact Jesus did not mention it one in John when he multiple times mentioned that belief is how one is born again and lack of faith is the means of condemnation.

Acts 2: 38 does not say baptism is required. It is peter asking those who recieved remission of sin, due to repentance, To be baptized,. And if we read, the people who repented were baptized.

1 Peter 3 says not the removal of filth (sin) of the flesh (soul)

And makes it clear it is an answer of a good conscious to God.

Not a means to merit salvation


Nope. They did not merit salvation, they were baptized because they were saved.


Once again,

Obedience is only merit if you are doing it to merit salvation.

If your doing it out of love and out os gratitude and out of faith because God loved and saved you first. it is not a work of merit.


The gospel is believe in the name of Jesus and you will be saved
The gospel is that God sent his son that whoever believes will never perish, but live forever.
The gospel is whoever believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe is condemned already
The gospel is call out on the name of jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
The gospel is we are cursed because we have failed to live up to the standard of God. But God in his infinite grace sent his son, that he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we may be made the righteousness of Christ in him

The gospel is the death and burial and resurrection of Christ.




Your stuck on three verses and totally ignore the many many other verses that do not even mention water baptism

Its sad that satan has perverted the gospel by adding a work of salvation. No different really then perverting the gospel by adding circumcision to the gospel.

Things man has to do to be saved:
We have to believe
We have to repent
We have to confess
We have to be water baptized

You're ok with doing the work of believing and not calling it merit.
But you disassociate doing other works as merit.

Are you consistent?

We have to repent.
Repentance is a work of obedience. Just as faith.

Now is repentance earning salvation to you?

Baptism is not a work of man, Titus 3:5
Therefore you are mislabeling it as merit.

How can something that cannot be earned like salvation be merited through obeying Jesus' requirements?
If I kept all of the commandments of Jesus.
Without Gods grace it would profit me nothing.

But if we access Gods grace through obedience.
Then when we meet His requirements He gives us access to His grace.
Hebrews 5:8-9.

The Bible teaches water baptism is a work of God, not a work of man,
Colossians 2:12

Saved by Works of Man, no
Saved by works of God, yes

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Things man has to do to be saved:
We have to believe
We have to repent
We have to confess
We have to be water baptized

You're ok with doing the work of believing and not calling it merit.
But you disassociate doing other works as merit.

Are you consistent?

We have to repent.
Repentance is a work of obedience. Just as faith.

Now is repentance earning salvation to you?

Baptism is not a work of man, Titus 3:5
Therefore you are mislabeling it as merit.

How can something that cannot be earned like salvation be merited through obeying Jesus' requirements?
If I kept all of the commandments of Jesus.
Without Gods grace it would profit me nothing.

But if we access Gods grace through obedience.
Then when we meet His requirements He gives us access to His grace.
Hebrews 5:8-9.

The Bible teaches water baptism is a work of God, not a work of man,
Colossians 2:12

Saved by Works of Man, no
Saved by works of God, yes

Water baptism is not a work of God

Spirit baptism is a work of God


Faith is not a work of man

Faith is a work of God

You have to much faith is self and not enough faith in God

 

[Titus]

Water baptism is not a work of God

Spirit baptism is a work of God


Faith is not a work of man

Faith is a work of God

You have to much faith is self and not enough faith in God

I'm fine, if you want to give your opinions.
But, opinions will never convince me of Biblical accuracy.

If you want to have some sway with me.
Then please use the Bible to make your position.
Otherwise it is just a meaningless I say, you say lacking any evidence.

You are incorrect in saying Baptism is a work of man.

If it is a work of man, then why is it written by the work of Holy Spirit into the gospel.
Immersion in water is Preached and commanded first by God(Mark 16:15-16)
Then preached and commanded by Gods chosen apostles(Acts 2:38).

Can you explain baptism being a work of man when God created this work in His own "mind'.,
Then came to earth in the flesh and taught it to man.

This work of God was "invented " by Him, not man.
He authorized the gospel commandments.
Therefore baptism is a work of God that he authorized in His gospel.

I do not believe water baptism saves without Gods work in baptism.
If God did not authorize baptism, THEN IT WOULD BE A WORK OF MAN, IF IT WAS NOT A COMMANDMENT FOUND IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, Mark 16:15-16.

Then yes, it would be a work of man.

Proof that man being immersed under water is not the agent that effects the cleansing that occurs in baptism. (Works of man salvation).

Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the WORK OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead.

God ordained baptism. Man did not come up with the idea to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38.

The reason for confusion on faith and works is caused by ignorance of what works are.

Faith that saves includes obedience to Gods commandments.
Biblical faith that is taught by Jesus and His apostles is not Belief in Jesus with no action taken from Belief.
This is why the scriptures teach we are saved not by belief only but by a working /obedient faith.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth Him and Worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.

Every work commanded by God,
Faith,
Repentance,
Confession,
Baptism
Are works of God because He authorized them.
When we obey His works, we are working righteousness.
Not the works of man.
John 6:28-29.

None of keeping Gods commandments merits salvation.
If so faith merits. For it is a commandment, 1John 3:23-24.

Works of man cannot save, Ephesians 2:8-9.
We are created to work the works of God,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm fine, if you want to give your opinions.
But, opinions will never convince me of Biblical accuracy

If you want to have some sway with me.
Then please use the Bible to make your position.
Otherwise it is just a meaningless I say, you say lacking any evidence.

Sometimes we just have to look at reality.

You merit a wage or a reward by work

Salvation is a gift.

When Jesus came, He did not work to merit anything. He worked to serve and love people. That is what he shows us is true works of obedience.

He also attacked the jewish religious organization and perverted the law that God had given them and turned it into a merit function. Instead of what he gave it for. And that is why they got mad at him and had him crucified. There hearts were so hard they could not see all the things which proved he was who he was. I mean imagine seeing him raise someone from the dead. And instead of falling on their knees praising God. They instead chose to kill him.

You are incorrect in saying Baptism is a work of man.

If it is a work of man, then why is it written by the work of Holy Spirit into the gospel.
Immersion in water is Preached and commanded first by God(Mark 16:15-16)

Actually it was taught long before that. Baptism was first seen in the OT. It was just not called baptism
The first thing you need to understand in this doctrine, is baptize, Baptism, and Baptist are not native English words. They are made up words. Much Like Jesus Christ is a transliterated word take from the greek Iesus Christos,

Baptizo became baptize - it means to immerse, to plung, To place into. To overwhelm. was the was the act of being immersed, plunged into or being overwhelmed I as hip sinking, or overwhelmed from the waves that succumbs to the waters. The act of a baptized immersing a fabric into a liquid as a means of giving the fabric color, we know this today as dyeing fabric The act of being overwhelmed with fear in a situation.

Baptizmo

A baptist or baptized is the one who does the baptising. A tie dyer, the person who adds color to a fabric. Etc etc..

I can go deeper but I have to look it up again. See you need to study things, Not just take what you are told as truth, but actually test every spirit. We are blessed with the origional languages With historical context. And all kinds of tools for which we can test the word to see what is really being said. God did not just leave us to the whelks of men

In the nt. We had water baptism performed byJohn to prepair the way. But as he showed the pharisees, they had to prove they Recieved Remission of sin before he would baptize them

We have John telling us Jesus will baptize with the HS and fire

We have Jesus asking the disciples if they could be baptized with the cup he was baptized with, and the king them they would

We have Paul telling us The children of Israel were baptized into moses

If you notice there up to this point. Only one ceremonial baptizing in water has been spoken of. And it is the same baptism in which the OT spoke of when Moses took the levites and baptized (washed) them into the river in a ceremony of consecrating them as priests. Also, for a gentile to be recieved into the jewish faith, they had to be baptized (washed) in the same way.

And finally. We have Jesus telling the disciples to go into the world and make disciples Baptizing THEM in the name of the father son and spirit. A ceremony many today call believers baptism, as apposed to Johns baptism.

So of all the baptisms mentioned above, we must as true searchers of the word, decide which baptism saved (remember the elementary principles. One Lord, One Faith, One baptism) which baptism is it.

This is an important decision we need to make, Because in my view, it has eternal consequences. I am sure you believe this also. So it is not something to be taken lightly.

Then preached and commanded by Gods chosen apostles(Acts 2:38).

Yes, He told those who repented and recieved remission of sin to be baptized. I am not arguing against water baptism. I am arguing against water baptism as a means of salvation. Not as the answer f a God consciousness towards God. A symbol. Much like Noah being saved was a symbol of what washes us. And who saved Noah? God.

Can you explain baptism being a work of man when God created this work in His own "mind'.,
Then came to earth in the flesh and taught it to man.

This work of God was "invented " by Him, not man.
He authorized the gospel commandments.
Therefore baptism is a work of God that he authorized in His gospel.

God instituted circumcision. A rite of cleansing of a jewish male child at the age of 8 days. This command of God was a work of God because he is the ne who invented it.

Yet paul condemned the act of this washing as trying t merit salvation. And he told the jews if they add this to the gospel it makes the gospel of grace to no effect. In fact, he called it anathema.

Can you explain why water baptism or any wrk of righteousness in which we do. Would be any different? Because I see no different.

But that is not the only reason I reject it as part of the gospel. There is much more

I do not believe water baptism saves without Gods work in baptism.

Water baptism does not save period. It has no power to save, It is the act of a priest a pastor a disciples or whoever, immersing 9the proper interpretation) you in a body of water

If God did not authorize baptism, THEN IT WOULD BE A WORK OF MAN, IF IT WAS NOT A COMMANDMENT FOUND IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, Mark 16:15-16.

Again see circumcision

If baptism was required. Jesus would have said so in john 3 (whever believes in him will never die but live forever (eternal life) he said this twice. He also said whoever believes is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already

he also said this in John 4 when he told the woman at the well, she could ask and he would give her living water flowing to eternal life (she could drink and never thirst,

he also said in john 6, Whoever believed will nto perish, Whoever takes the spiritual folk will never hunger never thirst, never die, live forever, and be risen n the last day

He said in john 1, We are given the right to be children of God by merely believing in his name (true saving faith)

I mean I can go on and on and on. You want me to focus n one verse. Of Jesus words when we have tons of messages where he speaks of salvation and forgets to tell us to be baptized? You said If I wanted you to listen, I would use scripture. Well how much scripture d you want that says we are saved by grace throough believing in the God. Just like at Ama, believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. And we who have this faith of abraham will also recieve this same gift of righteousness he did. And oh, by the way, Abraham was never baptised.

This post is too long I must cut in two. To be continued…

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then yes, it would be a work of man.

it is a work of man as a man is baptizing you. Your baptized by the hand of man, As apposed to allowing God to baptize you. Or being washed by the hand of God. Its amazing how paul describes the spiritual circumcision of God in Col 2 as the act of the baptism of the spirit. No water involved, no hands of man involved, only the hand of God

It also is amazing that Paul in Titus tells us it is not the act of righteous senses which we did, but Gods mercy he saved us again through that washing of the spirit (spiritual baptism by the hand of God)

Proof that man being immersed under water is not the agent that effects the cleansing that occurs in baptism. (Works of man salvation).

Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the WORK OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead.

The work of God. This is spirit baptism

This is GOD BAPTiZING YOU!

Not man immersing you in water.

You left part of the passage out

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them,

This is not baptism in water my friend, this is the spiritual circumcision or cleansing as mentioned by Paul and Christ himself so many times. This is the baptism of the spirit. Not baptism in water

God ordained baptism. Man did not come up with the idea to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38.

If you look at the language, he only told a certain group of people to be baptized. And the reason was because they had recieved remission of sin. “For remission of sin” does not always mean in order to recieve. In the greek or in the english this is just a stated fact.

The reason for confusion on faith and works is caused by ignorance of what works are.

The confusion of baptism is the ignorance of what the greek word baptizo from which the english word baptize, comes from.

And I agree, it is an ignorance of what works are.

We have works of merit (working t earn or gain something)

And works of righteousness (works done expecting nothing in return, also called works of love)

Faith that saves includes obedience to Gods commandments.
Biblical faith that is taught by Jesus and His apostles is not Belief in Jesus with no action taken from Belief.
This is why the scriptures teach we are saved not by belief only but by a working /obedient faith.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth Him and Worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.

Every work commanded by God,
Faith,
Repentance,
Confession,
Baptism
Are works of God because He authorized them.
When we obey His works, we are working righteousness.
Not the works of man.
John 6:28-29.

None of keeping Gods commandments merits salvation.
If so faith merits. For it is a commandment, 1John 3:23-24.

Works of man cannot save, Ephesians 2:8-9.
We are created to work the works of God,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is long so maybe we need ot break this up.

But study the word baptism, not in english, in the greek. You may change your view Because then you will see when it says we were baptized into christ. You will see the act of God immersing or placing you in christ as he baptised or placed isreal in moses. And not see an act of water baptism, which is not even hinted at in the passage.

 

[Titus]

it is a work of man as a man is baptizing you. Your baptized by the hand of man, As apposed to allowing God to baptize you. Or being washed by the hand of God. Its amazing how paul describes the spiritual circumcision of God in Col 2 as the act of the baptism of the spirit. No water involved, no hands of man involved, only the hand of God

It also is amazing that Paul in Titus tells us it is not the act of righteous senses which we did, but Gods mercy he saved us again through that washing of the spirit (spiritual baptism by the hand of God)


The work of God. This is spirit baptism

This is GOD BAPTiZING YOU!

Not man immersing you in water.

You left part of the passage out

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them,

This is not baptism in water my friend, this is the spiritual circumcision or cleansing as mentioned by Paul and Christ himself so many times. This is the baptism of the spirit. Not baptism in water

If you look at the language, he only told a certain group of people to be baptized. And the reason was because they had recieved remission of sin. “For remission of sin” does not always mean in order to recieve. In the greek or in the english this is just a stated fact.


The confusion of baptism is the ignorance of what the greek word baptizo from which the english word baptize, comes from.

And I agree, it is an ignorance of what works are.

We have works of merit (working t earn or gain something)

And works of righteousness (works done expecting nothing in return, also called works of love)


This is long so maybe we need ot break this up.

But study the word baptism, not in english, in the greek. You may change your view Because then you will see when it says we were baptized into christ. You will see the act of God immersing or placing you in christ as he baptised or placed isreal in moses. And not see an act of water baptism, which is not even hinted at in the passage.

Good.

In Jesus' gospel there is only one baptism,
Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, One faith, ONE BAPTISM.

You cannot be accurate in your Bible teaching.

Since there is only one baptism into Christ,
Galatians 3:26-27,
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I'm not in the Baptist religion as you have already figured.

I have the 1890 edition of the standard manual for Baptist churches in my hand.
The Hiscox Baptist manual.

Let's hear some Greek scholars way before our time teach what baptizo in the Greek is.

Quote: page 55 Christian Baptism,
"We believe the scriptures teach that Christian baptism is the immersion in water of a believer in Christ...."th

Quote: Meaning of the word page 65 of the 1890 Hiscox Baptist manual
"The word baptize is, properly speaking, a Greek word(baptizo) adapted to the English language by a change in its termination.
This is the word always used by Christ and His apostles to exprees and define the ordnance.
What does that word mean as originally used? For it is certain that our Lord, in commanding a rite to be observed by believers of all classes, in all lands and through all ages, would use a word of positive and definite import and one whose meaning would admit of no reasonable doubt.

What do Greek scholars say? How do the Greek lexicons define the word?

Scapula says: "To dip, to immerse, as we do anything for the purpose of dyeing it."

Schleusner says: "Properly it signifies to dip, to immerse, to immerse in water.

Parkhurst says: "To dip, to immerse, or plunge in water."

Stevens says: "To merge, or immerse, to sub-merge, or bury in water."

Donnegan says: "To immerse repeatedly into liquid, to submerge, to soak thoroughly.

Robinson says: "To immerse, to sink."

Liddell and Scott say: "To dip repeatedly."
Page 66

Grimms Lexicon of New Testament, which in Europe and America stands confessedly at the head of Greek lexicography, as translated and edited by Professor Thayer, of Harvard University, thus defines baptizo: .....
(3.) To overwhelm. In the New Testament it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution; by Chridt's command recieved by christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion, viz., an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiahs kingdom."

Hiscox manual 1890 page 67
Quote: Professor Moses Stuart, one the ablest scholars America has produced, declared: "Batptizo means to dip, pludge, or immerse into any liquid." All lexicographers and critics of any note are agreed in this."
Essay on Baptism, page 51; Biblical Repository, 1883, page 298.

That is a CONCESSION! All lexicographers and critics, of any note, are in agreement!

Hiscox manual 1890 page 67.
Quote: "....The Greek word louo means to wash the body, and upto to wash parts of the body; but these words are not used, because washing is not what Chrisr meant."

"Rantizo means to sprinkle, and if sprinkling were baptisn this would have been the word above all others; but it was never used."

Now you have made an error in Biblical Greek words.
Baptizo only refers to water baptism.
Never any other baptism!

What Greek word is used for Holy Spirit baptism?
baptisei

This word is never used for water baptism friend only baptizo!

There is only one baptism in Jesus gospel, Ephesians 4:5.

Now since there is not two baptisms that are commanded in order to be saved.

There is only one baptism that Christ commanded. Guess?
Mark 16:15-16 is baptizo!
Acts 2:38, baptizo
Colossians 2:12, baptizo!

Look at Paul's conversion.
When he said his sins were washed away in baptism,
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized(baptizo) and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Which baptism saved Paul?
Holy Spirit
Or
Water immersion?

It is obvious water is what Christ commanded, Mark 16:16
Because Holy Spirit baptism is NOT A COMMAND.

Peter taught it was water that saved Noah.
And the like figure immersion in water saves us,
1Peter 3:20-21.

Any modern day scholar that teaches baptizo is Holy Spirit is flat out lying to folks,
Has zero credibility and should be ignored.

One baptism.

Just as the Eunch was saved by being baptized in water FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Acts 8:37-38

eis never means because of in greek.
Only towards, in the future, moving forward. Into etc.
Never moving backwards

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good.

In Jesus' gospel there is only one baptism,
Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, One faith, ONE BAPTISM.

You cannot be accurate in your Bible teaching.

we can stop right here. Because this just shows your lack of understanding

There are MANY baptisms.

There is only one baptism applicable to salvation.

Since there is only one baptism into Christ,
Galatians 3:26-27,
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This is part of your problem. This is not water baptism, This is not a pastor baptizing you in water and somehow magically you are also baptized into christ (two baptisms)

this is one baptism

You are being placed into. or immersed into Christ.

Your pastor can not do this.

It does not happen by you being baptized into water

It can only be done by God and it is him baptizing you into Christ. Literally and spiritually (not figuratively)

Lets get on the same page up to here. and I will then look at the est of your post.

 

[Titus]

we can stop right here. Because this just shows your lack of understanding

There are MANY baptisms.

There is only one baptism applicable to salvation.

You made an assumption I dont know more than one baptism exists.
Why have you not addressed the elephant in the room.
Your misinterpretation of the Greek work baptizo is clearly wrong.
Therefore Ephesians 4:5 cannot be Holy Spirit as you wrongly teach because the word one baptism is Greek baptizo in Ephesians 4:5.
It is in fact water that Paul teaches as the one baptism in salvation.
Are you going to tell me all the Greek scholars got it wrong and your church got it right?
Thayer says it is water immersion friend!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You made an assumption I dont know more than one baptism exists.
Why have you not addressed the elephant in the room.
Your misinterpretation of the Greek work baptizo is clearly wrong.
Therefore Ephesians 4:5 cannot be Holy Spirit as you wrongly teach because the word one baptism is Greek baptizo in Ephesians 4:5.
It is in fact water that Paul teaches as the one baptism in salvation.
Are you going to tell me all the Greek scholars got it wrong and your church got it right?
Thayer says it is water immersion friend!

All I did was take what you said, and interpret by what you claim

Your claim that the one baptism can only be water can ONLY be held if that is the only baptism you think exists.

Water baptism is one type of baptism

In this, there is the baptism f John, and christian baptism, instituted by christ.

But that is not the only baptism.

Again, When the Bible says I was baptised INTO CHRIST, it means I was baptized into (placed into or immersed) Christ.

It does not mean I was baptised into water.

That is two baptisms no matter hw you want to spin it.

 

[Titus]

All I did was take what you said, and interpret by what you claim

Your claim that the one baptism can only be water can ONLY be held if that is the only baptism you think exists.

Water baptism is one type of baptism

In this, there is the baptism f John, and christian baptism, instituted by christ.

But that is not the only baptism.

Again, When the Bible says I was baptised INTO CHRIST, it means I was baptized into (placed into or immersed) Christ.

It does not mean I was baptised into water.

That is two baptisms no matter hw you want to spin it.

No spin on verses from me.
Galatians 3:26-27 is baptizo, therefore it must be water immersion.
The one baptism according to Paul that saves is baptizo, Ephesians 4:5.
One can only conclude correctly water immersion is what adds us into Christ.
For Holy Spirit baptism is two too many.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No spin on verses from me.
Galatians 3:26-27 is baptizo, therefore it must be water immersion.
The one baptism according to Paul that saves is baptizo, Ephesians 4:5.
One can only conclude correctly water immersion is what adds us into Christ.
For Holy Spirit baptism is two too many.

Nope

Baptizo is not always water immersion, I already proved that to you.

Gal says we’re baptizo’d INTO CHRIST. Not water.

You can either continue in unbelief, or you can repent and place your faith in christ, not some pastor immersing you in water

If you look up multin and Milligan, they have many examples of baptizo used in Ancient Greek writings, including government documents, fictional writings and non fictional writings.

In very few of those themes baptizo was used, was water involved.

 

[friend of]

Then faith is merit.
Faith is a work that must be done to be saved.
You must obey this commandment to be saved. Obeying commandments is works.

Faith is not a work. And if it is, it is the exception to the rule. Faith is what counts.