The salvation journey.

[Faither]

Yes, I agree (in principle).

However, my own testimony would be an exception-- not to the principle, but to the order of occurrences.

The exception, I would contribute to God's choosing, not mine. I was indeed drawn, but only as a last resort did I cry out to Him...and it was not so much a surrender, but a challenge and an ultimatum. You might say, He first volleyed to me, but I hit the ball back to Him, for which I can attest, He is not only merciful, but a good sport. :)​

But, please do carry on.

Well I'm pleasantly surprised that were still in agreement at this point in the journey. This is ussually where I loose people.

This is the point in the process where most called out ones stand on the 'believe and recieve' doctrine. It takes a lot to disassemble that mistranslation and it never ends well.

So lets test our agreement a bit.

Here are points ide like to make concerning this first act of Faith or pisteuo (a continually surrendered life).
1) The surrender must be genuine not perfect.
2) God must deem the surrendered life genuine and accept the offering to move forward and be tested. (the testing of our Faith or surrendered life)
3) At this first initial surrender, we still have not had the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet. Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours at this point.

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)

The next step is.
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.

Still in agreement?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Because you need it, unless your faking it, Its where Christians Stand, Grace is not about me. Grace is fundamentally about God, he offers it

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God is Love!, God is graceful, God is many things, Do you want more Love? do you want more Grace? Do you need Gods Love? Do you need Gods Grace? Do you want What God offers or do you think you can you handle things on your own

It is true that the more sin abounds the more grace abounds also, not that we should test God on this.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Paul certainly had a lot of adversity, affliction, hardship, persecution, and opposition to contend with but God gave him sufficient grace to endure in faith.

2Co 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. (8) Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. (9) And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

May The Grace of God Bless All In His Ekklesia

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If your doing works to merit salvation.

Then your trying to merit a gift.

Romans 4”
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Obedience should be a result of salvation. It should be motivated by love and gratitude because he first loved us.

Its not done to merit something, that is not love based. Thats self based.

You want to earn salvation. Then your trying to merit, and the Bible calls those works of self righteousness, or bloody rags. Not works of sanctification

You did not show where the Bible calls obedience to God's will a work of merit. You are defining obedience in a wrong way, in a way the Bible does not define it so you can then attack it.

Nor does the Bible put the free gift of salvation BEFORE one obeys. Noah and Naaman had to FIRST obey, first met the required condition THEN they received the free gift of God.......Noah was not FIRST saved from the flood THEN built the ark, Naaman was not FIRST healed THEN went and dipped, the blind man did not FIRST receive his sight THEN went to wash in the pool, those in Acts 2 were not FIRST saved THEN repented and were baptized.

A local store was giving away free hot dogs to all who stopped by and requested one...does one somehow FIRST get a free hot dog THEN go to the store later and request one?

Trying to force faith only into the Bible creates logically fallacies.

"Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool of Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man." Whiteside (my emp)

 

[ScottA]

Well I'm pleasantly surprised that were still in agreement at this point in the journey. This is ussually where I loose people.

This is the point in the process where most called out ones stand on the 'believe and recieve' doctrine. It takes a lot to disassemble that mistranslation and it never ends well.

So lets test our agreement a bit.

Here are points ide like to make concerning this first act of Faith or pisteuo (a continually surrendered life).
1) The surrender must be genuine not perfect.
2) God must deem the surrendered life genuine and accept the offering to move forward and be tested. (the testing of our Faith or surrendered life)
3) At this first initial surrender, we still have not had the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet. Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours at this point.

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)

The next step is.
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.

Still in agreement?

Sure.

 

[Stumpmaster]

He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.

So God's fault then . . . ???

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not show where the Bible calls obedience to God's will a work of merit. You are defining obedience in a wrong way, in a way the Bible does not define it so you can then attack it.

Actually I did show it in romans 4. where works done to earn righteousness merit a reward or a debt.

Nor does the Bible put the free gift of salvation BEFORE one obeys.

Actually yes it does. Abraham was saved before he did all his works. He also sinned greatly after he was saved, We can say the same with David,

Paul in titus destroys any theory that we are saved by any good deed by declairing it is not by our works of rightiousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us through the washing and new birth of the Holy Spirit

Jesus himself declared it by saying he who believes will not die. but has eternal life (born again)

He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. No works or good deeds

Paul also said if it is of grace it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Works as a means of salvation makes salvation merited. not freely given, it cancels grace out

We are saved BY grace through faith. not works.

Noah and Naaman had to FIRST obey, first met the required condition THEN they received the free gift of God.......Noah was not FIRST saved from the flood THEN built the ark, Naaman was not FIRST healed THEN went and dipped, the blind man did not FIRST receive his sight THEN went to wash in the pool, those in Acts 2 were not FIRST saved THEN repented and were baptized.

A local store was giving away free hot dogs to all who stopped by and requested one...does one somehow FIRST get a free hot dog THEN go to the store later and request one?

Trying to force faith only into the Bible creates logically fallacies.

"Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool of Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man." Whiteside (my emp)

My friend

Noah was saved long before he started to build the ark.

God is outside of time. You need to stop relegating God to a limit of time, and you need to stop thinking one work you do will cause God to forgive you of one sin

The penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life.

 

[Faither]

Sure.

Sure.

Sure is a little vague.
Do you have any questions or want to discuss a specific happening, or timing of the specific happening?

If "sure' is your response and are in agreement, why do you agree with it?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because you need it, unless your faking it, Its where Christians Stand, Grace is not about me. Grace is fundamentally about God, he offers it

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God is Love!, God is graceful, God is many things, Do you want more Love? do you want more Grace? Do you need Gods Love? Do you need Gods Grace? Do you want What God offers or do you think you can you handle things on your own

amen. We need it..

 

[ScottA]

Sure is a little vague.
Do you have any questions or want to discuss a specific happening, or timing of the specific happening?

If "sure' is your response and are in agreement, why do you agree with it?

Sorry, I'm sometimes on my phone and therefore brief.

The parable of the sower is a great example. The point of "testing", I would instead say is God's intention to reveal by manifestation all things through actions/acts.

Brief and by phone again :)

 

[Faither]

Sorry, I'm sometimes on my phone and therefore brief.

The parable of the sower is a great example. The point of "testing", I would instead say is God's intention to reveal by manifestation all things through actions/acts.

Brief and by phone again :)

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.

Next thing that must happen and happen in this order.

5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation journey stops. Still no Spirit of Christ sealed into the called out one at this point yet. Christ, His word, and His promises are not ours yet at this point.

 

[Stumpmaster]

In the testing of the parable of the sower,

Parables are comparisons.

• The sower compares with God's messengers.
• The seed compares with the Word of God.
• The soil compares with our hearts.

In the parable the sower doesn't seem to be concerned that some of the seed being scattered is falling where it will fail to thrive, presumably because there is sufficient seed to get good coverage of the prepared ground where cultivation, fertilisation, irrigation, and nurture will be rewarded with a good crop.

The transformation of the marginal wayside, the stony hardpan, and the thorn-choked wasteland into fertile, beneficial, productive ground happens according to God's Plan and Design, and many are the testimonies that bear witness to this.

When the soil of the heart is friable, fertile, and fruitful the seed of God's Word is unhindered in its growth with dramatic results. Some hear and receive "the calling" quicker than others because the soil of their hearts is ready. A lot of work goes into some hearts before they are ready - and cultivation is ongoing for everyone if they are to continue faithfully to hear the Word of God.

Col 1:21-23
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Faither]

Parables are comparisons.

• The sower compares with God's messengers.
• The seed compares with the Word of God.
• The soil compares with our hearts.

In the parable the sower doesn't seem to be concerned that some of the seed being scattered is falling where it will fail to thrive, presumably because there is sufficient seed to get good coverage of the prepared ground where cultivation, fertilisation, irrigation, and nurture will be rewarded with a good crop.

The transformation of the marginal wayside, the stony hardpan, and the thorn-choked wasteland into fertile, beneficial, productive ground happens according to God's Plan and Design, and many are the testimonies that bear witness to this.

When the soil of the heart is friable, fertile, and fruitful the seed of God's Word is unhindered in its growth with dramatic results. Some hear and receive "the calling" quicker than others because the soil of their hearts is ready. A lot of work goes into some hearts before they are ready - and cultivation is ongoing for everyone if they are to continue faithfully to hear the Word of God.

Col 1:21-23
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I understand the soil to be "our" Faith, our faithing, our continually surrendered life. The seed is Christ Himself, a real living person. The produced crop is "the relationship" with Jesus Christ a real living person, not just His word. "He" being the object of Faith, not Gods Word.

In my understanding.

 

[ScottA]

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.

Next thing that must happen and happen in this order.

5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation journey stops. Still no Spirit of Christ sealed into the called out one at this point yet. Christ, His word, and His promises are not ours yet at this point.

Okay. And then the graft must abide in Him also.

 

[Faither]

Okay. And then the graft must abide in Him also.

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.
5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation

The next happening #6

6) As a result of fulfilling pisteuo by a continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender, the graft takes! As the result of the graft taking, God accepts the offered, tested, and grafted on surrendered life by sealing the Grace deposit in the that one good soil. ( We don't accept Him, He accepts us.) We have at this point now met the condition referenced in Rom. 8:9. We are now in Him, and He is now in Us. We belong to Christ, His word, and His promises now. We are now in a state of being where it is harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.

We are in a state of continual perfecting by Him. A perfecting of our Faith, our pisteuo, our continually surrendered life.

 

[Faither]

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.
5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation

The next happening #6

6) As a result of fulfilling pisteuo by a continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender, the graft takes! As the result of the graft taking, God accepts the offered, tested, and grafted on surrendered life by sealing the Grace deposit in the that one good soil. ( We don't accept Him, He accepts us.) We have at this point now met the condition referenced in Rom. 8:9. We are now in Him, and He is now in Us. We belong to Christ, His word, and His promises now. We are now in a state of being where it is harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.

We are in a state of continual perfecting by Him. A perfecting of our Faith, our pisteuo, our continually surrendered life.

These are the things that must happen during the salvation journey and in the correct order.
Believing and receiving in one moment in time is not true NT saving Faith.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually I did show it in romans 4. where works done to earn righteousness merit a reward or a debt.



Actually yes it does. Abraham was saved before he did all his works. He also sinned greatly after he was saved, We can say the same with David,

Paul in titus destroys any theory that we are saved by any good deed by declairing it is not by our works of rightiousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us through the washing and new birth of the Holy Spirit

Jesus himself declared it by saying he who believes will not die. but has eternal life (born again)

He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. No works or good deeds

Paul also said if it is of grace it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Works as a means of salvation makes salvation merited. not freely given, it cancels grace out

We are saved BY grace through faith. not works.



My friend

Noah was saved long before he started to build the ark.

God is outside of time. You need to stop relegating God to a limit of time, and you need to stop thinking one work you do will cause God to forgive you of one sin

The penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life.

I see NOTHING in Romans 4 that defines obedience to God's will as a work of merit. If such were the case then Noah's salvation from the flood was not of grace but owed to him by God for his work in building the ark. Naaman being cleansed of his disease was not of grace but something God owed him for dipping in the Jordan.

Titus 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" refers to man doing his OWN righteousness not doing GOD's righteousness as those lost Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for going about establishing their OWN righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness. There's obviously a difference between man doing his own righteousness (faith alone) and doing God's righteousness (believing repenting confessing and being baptized).

Would Noah have continued to find grace in God's eyes had he disobeyed, rebelled against God and not built the ark as commanded by God? No. Therefore his obedience to God's will in building the ark was necessary to receive God's grace in being saved from the flood. But according to you, obedience to God's will is a work of merit, therefore God OWED it to Noah to save him from the flood for Noah's work in building the ark.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I understand the soil to be "our" Faith, our faithing, our continually surrendered life. The seed is Christ Himself, a real living person. The produced crop is "the relationship" with Jesus Christ a real living person, not just His word. "He" being the object of Faith, not Gods Word.

In my understanding.

I can't agree with your take on the Parable of the Sower because it disregards what Jesus Himself says the parable means, as followsnotice the emphasis on hearing)

Luk 8:9-15 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. (15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

As you know, it is imperative that we align with Scripture rather than speculation.

 

[Faither]

I can't agree with your take on the Parable of the Sower because it disregards what Jesus Himself says the parable means, as followsnotice the emphasis on hearing)

Luk 8:9-15 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. (15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

As you know, it is imperative that we align with Scripture rather than speculation.

Okay, you see the seed as the "word of God", and i see it as Christ Himself.

Question: Exactly what "word" are you referring to, or saying the Bible is referring to. The "word" as you are using as a context would not be compiled until the 1500's. Jesus is the word in carmate.

What word are you referring to at the point in time Jesus spoke the parable of the sower?

 

[Gospel Believer]

So to recap..
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.
5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation

The next happening #6

6) As a result of fulfilling pisteuo by a continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender, the graft takes! As the result of the graft taking, God accepts the offered, tested, and grafted on surrendered life by sealing the Grace deposit in the that one good soil. ( We don't accept Him, He accepts us.) We have at this point now met the condition referenced in Rom. 8:9. We are now in Him, and He is now in Us. We belong to Christ, His word, and His promises now. We are now in a state of being where it is harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.

We are in a state of continual perfecting by Him. A perfecting of our Faith, our pisteuo, our continually surrendered life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see NOTHING in Romans 4 that defines obedience to God's will as a work of merit.

1 thing you need to do is get our conversation correct.

We are not talking about general obedience.

We are talking about obedience as a means to gain, maintain or keep from losing salvation.

The type of obedience you are pushing

And yes sir. Romans 4 speaks of that very thing.

If such were the case then Noah's salvation from the flood was not of grace but owed to him by God for his work in building the ark. Naaman being cleansed of his disease was not of grace but something God owed him for dipping in the Jordan.

Titus 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" refers to man doing his OWN righteousness not doing GOD's righteousness as those lost Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for going about establishing their OWN righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness. There's obviously a difference between man doing his own righteousness (faith alone) and doing God's righteousness (believing repenting confessing and being baptized).

Would Noah have continued to find grace in God's eyes had he disobeyed, rebelled against God and not built the ark as commanded by God? No. Therefore his obedience to God's will in building the ark was necessary to receive God's grace in being saved from the flood. But according to you, obedience to God's will is a work of merit, therefore God OWED it to Noah to save him from the flood for Noah's work in building the ark.

Noah continued because he had true saving faith

It was his faith that saved him, Not his works.

You keep ignoring the passages I keep giving you proving that grace and works can not mix. Until you can resolve why works of righteousness DO NOT SAVE (titus 3) Ar4e not part of the salvation of Grace through faith (eph 2) and how if it is of grace it is not of works otherwise Grace is not grace (Rom 11)

Then you have the Bible contradicting itself.

You must resolve the contradiction. Otherwise. You have no standing