The "Restrainer"

[Foreigner]

I am looking for input on ONE SPECIFIC scripture.
I am asking that those wishing to give input stay focused on this one scripture alone and that this not explode into a full everything-including-the-kitchen-sink discussion on the Rapture.

First, where I am coming from:

For me, the vote is still out on the Rapture.
When I first got saved I was taught it was a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
But as I studied more on my own and listened with an open mind, I moved to the 'undecided' column.

The issue is that great men and women - true Christians all - who have made a life out of studying whether it is pre, mid or post have come to completely different conclusions.

These are NOT people who have had a preset opinion on the matter and were simply searching to find scripture to support their position. They were (and are) people who sought God with their whole hearts wanting simply to know His truth.

In my own efforts I can find scripture (in context and out) that both supports the concept of a pre-Trib Rapture and negates it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My focus is on one small scripture:

"And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6-7

The KJV says, "until he is taken out of the way."


I have always learned that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and that is what I believe.

My questions are simple:

1. Is the restrainer the Holy Spirit?
2. If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, how can He be removed without us having to go with Him since He lives in us?
3.If He is going to be removed from just the world but will remain living in us, why could not millions of Christians, still imbibed with the Holy Spirit's power, not inhibit or even thwart the devil's plan? (And yes, I understand the answer lies in the fact that prophecy already says that won't happen.)
4. Is question 3 answered by the massive number of Christians that are going to fall away as described in Matt. 24?

My hope is that the restrainer IS the Holy Spirit, and that when He is removed, those who have him living inside them will be removed, as well, because (in my opinion) there is no way God is going to remove the Holy Spirit from His children.

But I am well aware that God is not restrained by what we His children feel would be the common sense way of handling something.

I also understand that sometimes the translation can be "enhanced" if it is actually looked at through the Greek or the Latin (although I am loathe to say that since unusally then all the "linguists" who know just enough to be dangerous come out of the woodwork).

I guess I am soliciting people's opinion on the scripture itself.

Let me know what I am missing. Just looking for some peace.

Thanks in advance.


.

 

[Hollyrock]

I am looking for input on ONE SPECIFIC scripture.
I am asking that those wishing to give input stay focused on this one scripture alone and that this not explode into a full everything-including-the-kitchen-sink discussion on the Rapture.

First, where I am coming from:

For me, the vote is still out on the Rapture.
When I first got saved I was taught it was a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
But as I studied more on my own and listened with an open mind, I moved to the 'undecided' column.

The issue is that great men and women - true Christians all - who have made a life out of studying whether it is pre, mid or post have come to completely different conclusions.

These are NOT people who have had a preset opinion on the matter and were simply searching to find scripture to support their position. They were (and are) people who sought God with their whole hearts wanting simply to know His truth.

In my own efforts I can find scripture (in context and out) that both supports the concept of a pre-Trib Rapture and negates it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My focus is on one small scripture:

"And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6-7

The KJV says, "until he is taken out of the way."


I have always learned that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and that is what I believe.

My questions are simple:

1. Is the restrainer the Holy Spirit?
2. If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, how can He be removed without us having to go with Him since He lives in us?
3.If He is going to be removed from just the world but will remain living in us, why could not millions of Christians, still imbibed with the Holy Spirit's power, not inhibit or even thwart the devil's plan? (And yes, I understand the answer lies in the fact that prophecy already says that won't happen.)
4. Is question 3 answered by the massive number of Christians that are going to fall away as described in Matt. 24?

My hope is that the restrainer IS the Holy Spirit, and that when He is removed, those who have him living inside them will be removed, as well, because (in my opinion) there is no way God is going to remove the Holy Spirit from His children.

But I am well aware that God is not restrained by what we His children feel would be the common sense way of handling something.

I also understand that sometimes the translation can be "enhanced" if it is actually looked at through the Greek or the Latin (although I am loathe to say that since unusally then all the "linguists" who know just enough to be dangerous come out of the woodwork).

I guess I am soliciting people's opinion on the scripture itself.

Let me know what I am missing. Just looking for some peace.

Thanks in advance.


.

I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and that we will be caught up before He leaves the earth. I could be wrong though. The main thing is that we have peace in our hearts and minds even when we don't have all the answers yet. God bless you my friend.

 

[Rach1370]

I am looking for input on ONE SPECIFIC scripture.
I am asking that those wishing to give input stay focused on this one scripture alone and that this not explode into a full everything-including-the-kitchen-sink discussion on the Rapture.

First, where I am coming from:

For me, the vote is still out on the Rapture.
When I first got saved I was taught it was a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
But as I studied more on my own and listened with an open mind, I moved to the 'undecided' column.

The issue is that great men and women - true Christians all - who have made a life out of studying whether it is pre, mid or post have come to completely different conclusions.

These are NOT people who have had a preset opinion on the matter and were simply searching to find scripture to support their position. They were (and are) people who sought God with their whole hearts wanting simply to know His truth.

In my own efforts I can find scripture (in context and out) that both supports the concept of a pre-Trib Rapture and negates it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My focus is on one small scripture:

"And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6-7

The KJV says, "until he is taken out of the way."


I have always learned that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and that is what I believe.

My questions are simple:

1. Is the restrainer the Holy Spirit?
2. If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, how can He be removed without us having to go with Him since He lives in us?
3.If He is going to be removed from just the world but will remain living in us, why could not millions of Christians, still imbibed with the Holy Spirit's power, not inhibit or even thwart the devil's plan? (And yes, I understand the answer lies in the fact that prophecy already says that won't happen.)
4. Is question 3 answered by the massive number of Christians that are going to fall away as described in Matt. 24?

My hope is that the restrainer IS the Holy Spirit, and that when He is removed, those who have him living inside them will be removed, as well, because (in my opinion) there is no way God is going to remove the Holy Spirit from His children.

But I am well aware that God is not restrained by what we His children feel would be the common sense way of handling something.

I also understand that sometimes the translation can be "enhanced" if it is actually looked at through the Greek or the Latin (although I am loathe to say that since unusally then all the "linguists" who know just enough to be dangerous come out of the woodwork).

I guess I am soliciting people's opinion on the scripture itself.

Let me know what I am missing. Just looking for some peace.

Thanks in advance.

Hey! My story is very much like your own. Brought up assuming Pre-trib dispensationalism was true. But as I grew several things just didn't click for me...to many questions. So for years I dug, read and prayed about it all. I believe I have come to some peace over it, and very much hope you do as well...even if it's a different conclusion to mine.

I'm not going to try and answer your questions, because honestly, I'm not sure. I think the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, or it could be the gospel itself...the 'spirit' that confesses Jesus as Lord (1 John 4:2-3). But to be honest, I don't think much past it, not at least on this point...if it's gonna happen, then God can make it so! That's probably a failing on my part, and I'll look into it.

I just wanted to say...check out www.enjoyinggodministries.com
I read this site as a last ditch effort to understand something! I never thought I would agree with anything this man said! Honestly, I thought he advocated preterism, which I thought was definitely wrong! This was before I understood that the bible is full of 'foreshadowing' events. That what has happened before can be a shadow of something greater coming...and that this in itself is not preterism! When I understood this, so much fell into place for me, and Sam Storms writing really helped cement what I believe. I don't agree with everything the man says, but for me, he managed to answer most of the questions I had about pre-trib, post-trib, etc.

Anyway...good luck, will pray God settles the matter in your heart soon!

 

[Foreigner]

I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and that we will be caught up before He leaves the earth. I could be wrong though. The main thing is that we have peace in our hearts and minds even when we don't have all the answers yet. God bless you my friend.

-- Thanks Hollyrock. I agree with you.
The key is just to make sure you are living as you should be, witnessing and trying to help bring in as much of the harvest as possible, be it pre or post. Matt 24 has been an excellent source for me as to what to expect and prepare for.

I just never hear others speak about this specific scripture beyond either acknowledging or disagreeing that it is speaking specifically about the Holy Spirit. Yet, it seem such an important insight as to what is coming.

Hey! My story is very much like your own. Brought up assuming Pre-trib dispensationalism was true. But as I grew several things just didn't click for me...to many questions. So for years I dug, read and prayed about it all. I believe I have come to some peace over it, and very much hope you do as well...even if it's a different conclusion to mine.

I'm not going to try and answer your questions, because honestly, I'm not sure. I think the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, or it could be the gospel itself...the 'spirit' that confesses Jesus as Lord (1 John 4:2-3). But to be honest, I don't think much past it, not at least on this point...if it's gonna happen, then God can make it so! That's probably a failing on my part, and I'll look into it.

I just wanted to say...check out www.enjoyinggodministries.com
I read this site as a last ditch effort to understand something! I never thought I would agree with anything this man said! Honestly, I thought he advocated preterism, which I thought was definitely wrong! This was before I understood that the bible is full of 'foreshadowing' events. That what has happened before can be a shadow of something greater coming...and that this in itself is not preterism! When I understood this, so much fell into place for me, and Sam Storms writing really helped cement what I believe. I don't agree with everything the man says, but for me, he managed to answer most of the questions I had about pre-trib, post-trib, etc.

Anyway...good luck, will pray God settles the matter in your heart soon!

-- I never thought that it could be talking about the Gospel instead of the Holy Spirit. Something new to ponder.
Thank you so much for the link to that site. I will ABSOLUTELY check it out.

As the end approaches in such a way that even secular people are able to comment that they have heard about it being mentioned in the Bible, I am trying not to get too caught up (no pun intended) in whether it is Pre or Post.

I am just working to share Christ with others and to stand strong and avoid compromise and being deceived in the difficult days that are guaranteed to come "and having done all, to stand."

Thank you for your insight.

 

[Rach1370]

It is something to be wary of, I think...so many people...particulary Christians get caught up in it. And I can't say I blame them...now that the wonderful work on the cross is done and Jesus is alive...is there anything more exciting for Christians, than the thought of Jesus returning again...this time as conqueor and King?? But it can be dangerous to dwell on it to the exclusion of other things.
I don't think looking into it is a bad thing...pursuit of the truth is always good, especially when that truth glorifies God. I think we run off the tracks when we start jumping...not just into camps, but peering out from the boarders of that camp and heaving missiles at anyone outside them! I do have an opionion on what the bible says about the end time...but as long as a brother or sister says that yes, Jesus IS coming back, and that when He does, He will rule...I'm cool!
I got to the point in my own searching where I was just so fed up with all the labels, that I dismissed everything I thought or was brought up with and decided to re read all the opinions again and see which ones held up best against the simple truths of scripture! I may be wrong, but it's brought me peace on the subject and as I long for Jesus to appear...and don't really care how he chooses to do it...I figure it's ok!
So...I'm hoping you may come to some peace yourself!

 

[veteran]

II Th 2:6-10
6 And now ye know what (3588) withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (3588) whonow letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Both are 3588, Greek ho; definite article. It is sometimes translated in the KJV as a pronoun like 'he, she, it, they, who, them, whosoever'.

If that meant The Holy Spirit, I don't think Paul would have been that vague and would have definitely referred to The Spirit.


Dan 10:13-14
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
(KJV)


Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

The Dan.10 chapter is about Daniel being given a vision of the Heavenly order of things by the angel. So those references to the "king of Persia" and "prince of Grecia" are symbolic references from the Heavenly perspective, because no flesh prince could withstand these angels like the Dan.10:13 verse reveals. That Dan.10:21 idea of "holdeth" (Hebrew chazaq - 2388) means to strengthen, to hold, retain, lay hold of, to prevail, be stout, restrain, withstand, etc.

Then later at Dan.12:1, more is revealed...

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)

And that's where Paul's Message then continues...

2 Thess.2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV)

 

[JLB]

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Here is what this scripture is saying -

When the restrainer is taken out of the way, the lawless one will be revealed.

The restraining abilities will remain in place until the right time, the time that the lawless one is to be revealed. God is in control!


What this does not say is, when the restrainer is taken out of the way He will go to heaven or He will leave the earth. Nothing is mentioned as such. To say it does is Great Presumption!

That in itself should be enough to dissuade someone from building a "rapture" doctrine on the shifting sand of presumption.


Thanks, JLB

 

[ajdiamond]

Foreigner,

The key to answering your questions is found in 2 Thes 2:4: ...so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God...

Compare with 1 Cor 3:16--Know ye not that ye are the temple of God

Instead of thinking of the temple exoterically--a physical building built in the world somewhere--consider that it's possible that the passage is talking about you as a temple of God. Then the meanings will become clearer for you (if you have knowledge of the carnal mind and the egoistic sense of self that sit in your temple as if they are God)

 

[veteran]

Foreigner,

The key to answering your questions is found in 2 Thes 2:4: ...so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God...

Compare with 1 Cor 3:16--Know ye not that ye are the temple of God

Instead of thinking of the temple exoterically--a physical building built in the world somewhere--consider that it's possible that the passage is talking about you as a temple of God. Then the meanings will become clearer for you (if you have knowledge of the carnal mind and the egoistic sense of self that sit in your temple as if they are God)

Since our Lord Jesus Christ is The Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple, and His Apostles and prophets foundation stones, and we as lively stones, then HOW can that "man of sin", "that Wicked" one ever SIT in it???

I tell you, the Spiritual Temple CANNOT... be corrupted by anyone! If it were possible, then it would mean our Lord Jesus wouldn't truly be Sovereign.

That's why the temple Paul was speaking of in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is about a physical temple in Jerusalem, and today's orthodox Jews already have the materials ready to build it, and even have some of the foundation stones cut for it. Time to wake up.

 

[neophyte]

Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, "no one but the Father knows the day and the hour." The sects that try to predict Christ's coming ignore these words.
Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.

 

[veteran]

Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, "no one but the Father knows the day and the hour." The sects that try to predict Christ's coming ignore these words.
Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.

So, you don't know what times we're living in today?

 

[JLB]

Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, "no one but the Father knows the day and the hour." The sects that try to predict Christ's coming ignore these words.
Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.

· The Feast of Trumpets happens on the "new moon", which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. "Of that day or hour no man knows" is an expression referring to this feast, and thus, the return of Jesus Christ. ​

The word is clear about the "time" of His return, otherwise why would we be admonished to WATCH!


1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

 

[neophyte]

Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, "no one but the Father knows the day and the hour." The sects that try to predict Christ's coming ignore these words.
Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.
Matt. 24:44 – Jesus warns us that the Son of Man is coming at an hour we do not expect.
Matt. 25:13 – Jesus says “watch therefore, and be prepared, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”
Mark 13:35-37 – Jesus says “watch because you do not know when the Master of the House will come - watch!”
Luke 12:46 - the Master will come on a day and at an hour when He is not expected.
Acts 1:7 - Jesus says it is not for us to know the times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority.
1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3 - the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
James 5:7 - be patient until the coming of the Lord. Those who try to predict disregard this inspired teaching.
Rev. 22:20 - Jesus says He is coming soon, but He does not tell us when He is coming. Because Jesus says we do not know the day or the hour and will be surprised at His coming, it is silly, and disobedient, for people and groups to predict His coming. We, instead, need to be about the business of growing in holiness, so that we are prepared for our Lord when He comes again, no matter when that will be.
We have been living in the "end days '' from the time after the Cross. Worry about your individual 'last days '.not that of the earth..

 

[JLB]

Matt. 24:36 - many sects try to predict the coming of Christ. But Jesus says, "no one but the Father knows the day and the hour." The sects that try to predict Christ's coming ignore these words.
Matt. 24:36 - we should also note that Jesus’ statement does not mean than Jesus does not know the day of His Second Coming. Jesus does know, because He is God. With this statement, Jesus explains that He chose to know by His human knowledge only that which He wanted to know for His mission of salvation. In other words, Jesus could have chosen not to know everything by His own human knowledge, but Jesus knew everything in His human knowledge through its hypostatic union to His eternal and infinite divine knowledge.
Matt. 24:44 – Jesus warns us that the Son of Man is coming at an hour we do not expect.
Matt. 25:13 – Jesus says “watch therefore, and be prepared, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”
Mark 13:35-37 – Jesus says “watch because you do not know when the Master of the House will come - watch!”
Luke 12:46 - the Master will come on a day and at an hour when He is not expected.
Acts 1:7 - Jesus says it is not for us to know the times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority.
1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 3:3 - the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
James 5:7 - be patient until the coming of the Lord. Those who try to predict disregard this inspired teaching.
Rev. 22:20 - Jesus says He is coming soon, but He does not tell us when He is coming. Because Jesus says we do not know the day or the hour and will be surprised at His coming, it is silly, and disobedient, for people and groups to predict His coming. We, instead, need to be about the business of growing in holiness, so that we are prepared for our Lord when He comes again, no matter when that will be.
We have been living in the "end days '' from the time after the Cross. Worry about your individual 'last days '.not that of the earth..

You make some good points here, however Jesus gave us some signs to look for that is associated with His Coming as well as -

And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:37

I especially like and agree with your comment -

We, instead, need to be about the business of growing in holiness, so that we are prepared for our Lord when He comes again, no matter when that will be.
We have been living in the "end days '' from the time after the Cross. Worry about your individual 'last days '.not that of the earth..


Hard to go wrong with that, unless .... your concept of holiness is outward.


Thanks, JLB

I am looking for input on ONE SPECIFIC scripture.
I am asking that those wishing to give input stay focused on this one scripture alone and that this not explode into a full everything-including-the-kitchen-sink discussion on the Rapture.

First, where I am coming from:

For me, the vote is still out on the Rapture.
When I first got saved I was taught it was a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
But as I studied more on my own and listened with an open mind, I moved to the 'undecided' column.

The issue is that great men and women - true Christians all - who have made a life out of studying whether it is pre, mid or post have come to completely different conclusions.

These are NOT people who have had a preset opinion on the matter and were simply searching to find scripture to support their position. They were (and are) people who sought God with their whole hearts wanting simply to know His truth.

In my own efforts I can find scripture (in context and out) that both supports the concept of a pre-Trib Rapture and negates it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My focus is on one small scripture:

"And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6-7

The KJV says, "until he is taken out of the way."


I have always learned that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and that is what I believe.

My questions are simple:

1. Is the restrainer the Holy Spirit?
2. If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, how can He be removed without us having to go with Him since He lives in us?
3.If He is going to be removed from just the world but will remain living in us, why could not millions of Christians, still imbibed with the Holy Spirit's power, not inhibit or even thwart the devil's plan? (And yes, I understand the answer lies in the fact that prophecy already says that won't happen.)
4. Is question 3 answered by the massive number of Christians that are going to fall away as described in Matt. 24?

My hope is that the restrainer IS the Holy Spirit, and that when He is removed, those who have him living inside them will be removed, as well, because (in my opinion) there is no way God is going to remove the Holy Spirit from His children.

But I am well aware that God is not restrained by what we His children feel would be the common sense way of handling something.

I also understand that sometimes the translation can be "enhanced" if it is actually looked at through the Greek or the Latin (although I am loathe to say that since unusally then all the "linguists" who know just enough to be dangerous come out of the woodwork).

I guess I am soliciting people's opinion on the scripture itself.

Let me know what I am missing. Just looking for some peace.

Thanks in advance.


.

Foreigner,

I answered your post while focusing on the scripture reference you asked me to, The Restrainer.

Would you comment on my answer.


Thanks, JLB

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Here is what this scripture is saying -

When the restrainer is taken out of the way, the lawless one will be revealed.

The restraining abilities will remain in place until the right time, the time that the lawless one is to be revealed. God is in control!


What this does not say is, when the restrainer is taken out of the way He will go to heaven or He will leave the earth. Nothing is mentioned as such. To say it does is Great Presumption!

That in itself should be enough to dissuade someone from building a "rapture" doctrine on the shifting sand of presumption.


Thanks, JLB

 

[neophyte]

The following is how the Catholic Church describes ''Rapture"-

There are three ways that Protestants interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.
(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church). ​

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.
(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.​

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!
From "The New American Bible" and 'Catholic Apologetics' [ Reverend Duane G. Hunt D.D.]

 

[JLB]

The following is how the Catholic Church describes ''Rapture"-

There are three ways that Protestants interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.
(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church). ​

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.
(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.​

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!
From "The New American Bible" and 'Catholic Apologetics' [ Reverend Duane G. Hunt D.D.]

This thread is specifically about the restrainer. There are other threads about the rapture.


Thanks, JLB

 

[neophyte]

The Thessalonians knew who it meant , It applied to the Roman Empire with its emperor Nero.

 

[ajdiamond]

The restrainer is the man of sin, the son of perdition. It is what withholds a man from realizing the coming of Christ in him.

2 Th 2:2 sets the context that we are talking about the day of Christ. Which, again, is the appearance of Christ in you, when a man is centered in Spirit and abides in Christ in him instead of being centered in his fleshly carnal-minded egoself, which has been his custom since birth.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you. This didn't happen to you automatically when you said the sinner's prayer. The day of Christ will not happen for you until there come a falling away first. The term "falling away" means a divorcement. Until one falls away from, backs away from, divorces the egoself, one will continue to live in the flesh and not in the spirit. When the divorcement occurs, then you have the clarity of vision and the peace of mind so that son of perdition is revealed to you. "Perdition" is a derivative of the word 'perish'.... There are those who are saved and all else are perishing. Pre-Jesus, you were perishing and the "son of perdition" ran the show in your temple.

2 Th 2:4 The man of sin, this egoistic carnal sense of self, this little me that does 90% of the thinking in your head, carrying on conversations all day long, repetitively reacting to stimulus all day, opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in you, the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Know ye not that you are the temple of God? And what sat in your temple, running the show, pre-Jesus? The old carnal man, the man of sin, the self, the fleshly ego. This is what this passage is talking about. And if you are in most religions, it is likely still the master of your temple. Meditate. Watch. Know thyself. Be still and know God. Find some stillness in you so that you realize this thing that's thinking thinking thinking all the time automatically, isn't you. You are a son of God, a spirit in a body. That thing rattling on in your head, isn't you.

2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the old man of sin) that he (Christ) might be revealed in his time (the day of Christ for you).

2 Th 2:7 Only he (the old man of sin) who now restrains (hinders you from realizing your divine nature), will do so, until he is out of the way (after you realize you are not that thing and divorce it).

2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (the old man of sin) be revealed (to you), whom the Lord (Christ in you) shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. The realizations of Christ in you destroys that old man, experentially.

I die daily; abide in Christ; crucify the self; I can of mine own self do nothing; I must decrease so that Christ can increase; union with Christ; one with Christ. That's what the day of Christ is about, you abiding in the divine nature, walking in the Spirit. And you can't do that when living in the carnal mind with it's sense of self.

 

[JLB]

The restrainer is the man of sin, the son of perdition. It is what withholds a man from realizing the coming of Christ in him.

2 Th 2:2 sets the context that we are talking about the day of Christ. Which, again, is the appearance of Christ in you, when a man is centered in Spirit and abides in Christ in him instead of being centered in his fleshly carnal-minded egoself, which has been his custom since birth.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you. This didn't happen to you automatically when you said the sinner's prayer. The day of Christ will not happen for you until there come a falling away first. The term "falling away" means a divorcement. Until one falls away from, backs away from, divorces the egoself, one will continue to live in the flesh and not in the spirit. When the divorcement occurs, then you have the clarity of vision and the peace of mind so that son of perdition is revealed to you. "Perdition" is a derivative of the word 'perish'.... There are those who are saved and all else are perishing. Pre-Jesus, you were perishing and the "son of perdition" ran the show in your temple.

2 Th 2:4 The man of sin, this egoistic carnal sense of self, this little me that does 90% of the thinking in your head, carrying on conversations all day long, repetitively reacting to stimulus all day, opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in you, the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Know ye not that you are the temple of God? And what sat in your temple, running the show, pre-Jesus? The old carnal man, the man of sin, the self, the fleshly ego. This is what this passage is talking about. And if you are in most religions, it is likely still the master of your temple. Meditate. Watch. Know thyself. Be still and know God. Find some stillness in you so that you realize this thing that's thinking thinking thinking all the time automatically, isn't you. You are a son of God, a spirit in a body. That thing rattling on in your head, isn't you.

2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the old man of sin) that he (Christ) might be revealed in his time (the day of Christ for you).

2 Th 2:7 Only he (the old man of sin) who now restrains (hinders you from realizing your divine nature), will do so, until he is out of the way (after you realize you are not that thing and divorce it).

2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (the old man of sin) be revealed (to you), whom the Lord (Christ in you) shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. The realizations of Christ in you destroys that old man, experentially.

I die daily; abide in Christ; crucify the self; I can of mine own self do nothing; I must decrease so that Christ can increase; union with Christ; one with Christ. That's what the day of Christ is about, you abiding in the divine nature, walking in the Spirit. And you can't do that when living in the carnal mind with it's sense of self.

The restrainer is the man of sin, the son of perdition.


Let's see how your rationalization stacks up with scripture.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only the man of sin who now restrains will do so until the son of perdition is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,


To say that the man of sin is the restrainer and once he is removed then he will be revealed, is utter nonsense.

Your esoteric interpretation lacks credibility as well as scriptural content!



Thanks, JLB

 

[aspen]

I was enjoying reading this thread in the beginning, but I think it has been hijacked - I hope we get back on track.