The REAL "man of sin"

[Zao is life]

The Temple was being measured because it was new.

Paul was mentioning this new Temple as led by the Holy Spirit.

Paul never wrote Revelation.

Satan is not omnipresent and cannot sit in the body of many believers.

Of course not. The man of sin is one man. He's not omnipresent either. Niether does Satan sit in any believer. There's no point in that statement.

The church is not identified as having a central authority over the entire earth.

But the harlot is.

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Those verses never say the tabernacle was in heaven.

Neither does Revelation 11:1-2. Rev.13:7 says he will make war against the saints. Collectively that's the temple - the same temple which John is told to measure in Revelation 11:1-2. New Jerusalem is the holy city. The one the saints dwell in:

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

You are mixing up and conflating the church with some organized religion that may or may not have a central governmental body.

No I'm not. You are mixing up and conflating the collective body of the saints with the harlot.

The Mormans have a central authority. The RCC operates out of the Vatican. Even some Protestant groups have a central authority. The Church herself is simply a group of local believers.

Religion is represented in Revelation as the whore. Religion is symbolically destroyed by the ten horns or kings without a kingdom.

No problem there, except that the destruction of the harlot is not symbolic, it's literal - but it does not disprove anything I said, which you started off trying to argue against, but you've forgotten what your post was about by the time you get to what you say below, because below you've turned off the road and driven up your mountain covered with clouds to show us the lofty view you see through the clouds from up there (I never said anything about the false prophet):

This mention of a false prophet in these verses you quote from Revelation 13 is not about religion nor the church. It is about the removal of God and religion in totality from the earth. It is Satan worship and the worship of Satan's accomplishments.

Which is religion - worship of the beast and the dragon that gives the beast his power, seat and authority, is religion.

OK now you came back below:

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not even talking about any human. That is the point.

No, that's your point. Your point doesn't equate with the actual truth of the identity of the MAN of sin. The word man sounds human to me. He's also called the same thing Jesus called Judas Iscariot - who was a man - the son of perdition.

The rest below is the pictures you've taken from your lofty mountain view blocked by clouds:

Paul is talking about Satan sitting on the throne Jesus set up in the Temple in Jerusalem, Jesus set up.

The Temple is this place where Jesus as King and as God is now sitting in authority over all nations, according the the 7th Trumpet.

So according to what you say above, Jesus has returned, and (according to you) a temple has been erected in Jerusalem, Jesus is seated as King on His throne in that temple, and then the man of sin somehow winds up on that throne instead of Jesus. Where did Jesus go?

Oh I see, above is where your post gets into the area of your guess-work, which continues below:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is still in regards to the Temple mentioned in verse 1. It was given that after this declaration in verse 15, there is still the possibility that the Gentiles would still trample the courtyard 42 months after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. Certainly they had not been trampling 42 months prior to the 7th Trumpet sounding.

OK that's as far as I can go because you've gone into your own private interpretations now. By now you've made me forget what my post was about that you began your post by arguing against. Sorry Tim, but the rest is just not something I want to spend time on. There's almost no truth n it at all. In any case I'm out of this thread after this post.

Interpretation is consistent between Paul and John they are both talking about the authority given to Satan who is this "man of sin" and goes into perdition.

I have a slightly different take on Satan being "bound" in the first century. I think Satan walked more openly and freely and those interacting with Satan knew he was a literal angel of God. Others may have just seen him as another male on earth. But the first coming and the Gospel placed Satan in a self imposed moratorium. If Satan walked around freely with authority that would legitimize the Gospel, Jesus, and God. Every point Satan is trying to eradicate from human understanding. So Satan worked behind the scenes, with religion and knowledge, known as science. Thus he has succeeded in removing what humans accept as truth as far from God's Word as possible, and even the church has been decieved.

John even pointed out that Pergamos was Satan's seat of authority. Interestingly the land was sold by a Greek king to a Roman ruler when Greece was ending as the third beast of Daniel and the 4th beast was taking over, Rome. So Satan is symbolized as the beast that was and is not, and will come out of the pit, again to freely walk about among humans. The reason being that Jesus and the angels are also on the earth, and Satan does not need to make people think he does not exist.

The other point about 2 Thessalonians 2 and the wrong claim, about some AC, is the timing.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Two distinct points of reference: the Second Coming and the Day of Christ.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come."

The day of Christ is the entire reign of authority as King. The Second Coming is the means of Jesus accomplishing this rule on earth, by coming to the earth.

Even some pre-mill state this is the last day of the earth, but imply the last "24 hour" day.

Paul is consistent with John that Satan will be ousted prior to the 1,000 year reign, not the Second Coming. It will be the Second Coming and the removal of spiritual blindness that allows Satan to come out of hiding.

One can argue interpretation based on bias. But the bias would be both ways. Many explain away the day of Christ or the Day of the Lord. I embrace the Day.

 

[Timtofly]

No I'm not.

That is exactly how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2. Unless you think Paul is talking about the Heavenly Temple.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Paul's (Man Of Sin) will be a future literal human man, of Jewish-Hebrew decent

Not going to happen.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
• shewing himself that he is God."

The sinful man is seen here in a portrait of a false Christ 'because' he positions himself sitting (signifying ruling) in the Holy Temple of God as if he were God. He is by implication substituting his words for God's word. He is thus the disobedient, the lawless man, the man of sin. For the true Christian, Jesus Christ is the Living Word who rules in the Temple. If man in the spirit of antichrist substitutes his own rules (laws) for God's, he has by the spirit of Antichrist made himself ruler in the Temple. He doesn't have to literally say I am Christ the ruling king, he makes himself the ruler and false Christ by usurping the authority of Christ. By his disobedience to God's laws, He is the man of lawlessness[1]. God illustrates throughout His word that an Antichrist is more than someone who verbally denies Christ in the flesh, he is one who denies Christ by His works. Think about it, why would someone who denies Christ literally or verbally, be ruling in the churches? God's servants would be aware of that and he would deceive no one in the church. That would be an Atheist, and it would make no sense for him to rule the church. On the other hand, it is he that claims to be serving Christ, and yet rationalizes away God's word and cleverly twists God's word, and stealthily removes God's word, that will deceive the church. That's the man of sin's strong delusion, that's the great deception, that's the clever misrepresentation that will seduce an unfaithful congregation. Not an atheist, but an antichrist, a man ruling in place of Christ. It is one who denies the authority of God's law by chicanery substituting his own interpretations, rules and words for God's. Dear souls, it is incumbent upon God's children to examine the 'substitute' aspect of this word as Antichrist. For example, when Christ warns, "for many shall come in My name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many -Matt. 24:5," He wasn't talking about a few mentally deranged individuals who might think or literally claim that they are Christ. At best these could deceive only a few gullible people. Christ was talking about the 'many' antichrists who come looking like a Lamb, but speaking like a Dragon. Many false Christs that praise the Lord with their lips, while they have their own authorities, and are substituting themselves as the rulers of Churches, in opposition to God's divine word. They indeed are not a few deranged individuals, but are the many wolves in sheep's clothing who indeed deceive many "exactly" as prophesied. Show me a man who literally says, "I am Christ," and I'll show you a man who is almost universally mocked, who can at best deceive few. But show me a man of lawlessness in the church, with deceiving lips causing many to fall away from the inerrant authority of the Word, and I'll show you Antichrist. I'll show you the man of sin ruling in the Temple of God 'as if' he was God. I'll will show you the false prophet and the false Christ. A church body that is not ruled by Christ (the word), is ruled by man. Many will be deceived and believe that this is the Christ.

Mark 13:21-23

• "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
• For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
• But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

These false Christs that rise are showing great signs, signifying that they are of Christ, and our Lord says that they will be so convincing that it might even deceive the very elect of God if that were possible. Obviously it is not a few lunatics thinking they are literally Christ, it is Pastors, Ministers, Theologians and other church rulers convincing thousands upon thousands that their rule is in love and sanctioned by God. They substitute their beliefs for His laws, and man's word for His works, and they substitute their sentiments for His commandments, and for His will they substitute their own will. These are the only false Christs who can deceive so greatly and so convincingly that they would even deceive the very elect if they were not divinely sealed by the Spirit of promise. This lawless man ruling in the Temple as if he was God, can only be recognized as such by those possessing the Spirit of truth.

Stop searching for one man, instead, "He who hath an ear, let him hear."

 

[Hobie]

Paul's temples:

"naos" spiritual:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

Ephesians 2:21-22
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"eidóleion" physical:

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"hieros/hieron" physical:

1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

Very eye opening, we see the 'temple' was also that of spiritual belief, which the corruption of the 'man of sin' would bring.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not going to happen.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
• shewing himself that he is God."

The sinful man is seen here in a portrait of a false Christ 'because' he positions himself sitting (signifying ruling) in the Holy Temple of God as if he were God. He is by implication substituting his words for God's word. He is thus the disobedient, the lawless man, the man of sin. For the true Christian, Jesus Christ is the Living Word who rules in the Temple. If man in the spirit of antichrist substitutes his own rules (laws) for God's, he has by the spirit of Antichrist made himself ruler in the Temple. He doesn't have to literally say I am Christ the ruling king, he makes himself the ruler and false Christ by usurping the authority of Christ. By his disobedience to God's laws, He is the man of lawlessness[1]. God illustrates throughout His word that an Antichrist is more than someone who verbally denies Christ in the flesh, he is one who denies Christ by His works. Think about it, why would someone who denies Christ literally or verbally, be ruling in the churches? God's servants would be aware of that and he would deceive no one in the church. That would be an Atheist, and it would make no sense for him to rule the church. On the other hand, it is he that claims to be serving Christ, and yet rationalizes away God's word and cleverly twists God's word, and stealthily removes God's word, that will deceive the church. That's the man of sin's strong delusion, that's the great deception, that's the clever misrepresentation that will seduce an unfaithful congregation. Not an atheist, but an antichrist, a man ruling in place of Christ. It is one who denies the authority of God's law by chicanery substituting his own interpretations, rules and words for God's. Dear souls, it is incumbent upon God's children to examine the 'substitute' aspect of this word as Antichrist. For example, when Christ warns, "for many shall come in My name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many -Matt. 24:5," He wasn't talking about a few mentally deranged individuals who might think or literally claim that they are Christ. At best these could deceive only a few gullible people. Christ was talking about the 'many' antichrists who come looking like a Lamb, but speaking like a Dragon. Many false Christs that praise the Lord with their lips, while they have their own authorities, and are substituting themselves as the rulers of Churches, in opposition to God's divine word. They indeed are not a few deranged individuals, but are the many wolves in sheep's clothing who indeed deceive many "exactly" as prophesied. Show me a man who literally says, "I am Christ," and I'll show you a man who is almost universally mocked, who can at best deceive few. But show me a man of lawlessness in the church, with deceiving lips causing many to fall away from the inerrant authority of the Word, and I'll show you Antichrist. I'll show you the man of sin ruling in the Temple of God 'as if' he was God. I'll will show you the false prophet and the false Christ. A church body that is not ruled by Christ (the word), is ruled by man. Many will be deceived and believe that this is the Christ.

Mark 13:21-23

• "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
• For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
• But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

These false Christs that rise are showing great signs, signifying that they are of Christ, and our Lord says that they will be so convincing that it might even deceive the very elect of God if that were possible. Obviously it is not a few lunatics thinking they are literally Christ, it is Pastors, Ministers, Theologians and other church rulers convincing thousands upon thousands that their rule is in love and sanctioned by God. They substitute their beliefs for His laws, and man's word for His works, and they substitute their sentiments for His commandments, and for His will they substitute their own will. These are the only false Christs who can deceive so greatly and so convincingly that they would even deceive the very elect if they were not divinely sealed by the Spirit of promise. This lawless man ruling in the Temple as if he was God, can only be recognized as such by those possessing the Spirit of truth.

Stop searching for one man, instead, "He who hath an ear, let him hear."

I disagree with your claims of symbolic allegory trying to remove the future physical literal

Scripture clearly teaches that (Daniel's Little Horn) (Paul's Man Of Sin) (John's The Beast) will be the same future individual living human man, that will have a human body that dies

 

[TribulationSigns]

I disagree with your claims of symbolic allegory trying to remove the future physical literal

Scripture clearly teaches that (Daniel's Little Horn) (Paul's Man Of Sin) (John's The Beast) will be the same future individual living human man, that will have a human body that dies

LOL. Good luck with finding your fantasy man like many false prophets before you. Your interpretation is all mess up because it’s based on speculation of men looking for a single man to fit your flawed doctrine.

For example,

Beast = one man
Little horn = one man
Man of sin = one man

The Bible doesn't say that. Man did.

 

[Davy]

I said according to your post, what Antiochus IV did was impossible, because God's sanctuary where the Holy Spirit met with His people could not be defiled, according to what you said in your post.

I NEVER SAID any such idea as the above about Antiochus. I pointed to the "abomination of desolation" event Jesus quoted being about what the future coming final Antichrist will do at the end of this world.

And of course you'd like to report posts of rebuke against your false teaching, because it just puts you in a bad light, doesn't it?


For my Christian brethren:
The subject of Antiochus IV (or Epiphanes), that Fullness of the Gentiles is trying to push here is Preterist doctrines of men.

Men's doctrines of Preterism treats what Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. Jerusalem with spiritually desolating the 2nd temple as being what the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted in His Olivet discourse is about, thus wrongly pushing that event into past history. But you have to sharpen up just a little to catch the difference with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15, because Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel about 200 years after... Antiochus IV had been dead!

So how... in the world could the "abomination of desolation" event of Daniel 11:31 apply to Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C., if Jesus quoted that from Daniel 11 two hundred years later?! ? It's so easy... to know that men's false Preterist doctrines are simply telling a LIE with claiming Antiochus IV already fulled it. It just requires one to think a little bit.

Now per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), he did record that Antiochus IV took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the 2nd temple and spiritually desolated it by sacrificing swine on the altar, and setting up an idol to Zeus, and demanding all to bow to it. Antiochus IV did that in 170 B.C. though, and was already dead by the time of Jesus' 1st coming when Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel 11 and Daniel 9:27, while giving the main SIGNS of the end which are the Seals of Rev.6.

Thus Antiochus IV served as 'blueprint' for the FUTURE "abomination of desolation" IDOL event placed inside a JEWISH stone temple in Jerusalem for the END.

 

[Davy]

Also by the way... there have been 27 sieges of Jerusalem in past history. There will be a final 28th one at the time of the END when Jesus returns. The following is a list documented by the 19th century Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger...

1. "By the tribe of Judah against the Jebusites, about 1443 B.C. This was some 700 years before Rome was founded. It was only partial, for in David's reign we still find the Jebusites occupying the citadel (the future Zion). The solemn words in Judg. 1:8, describing this first siege, vividly portray the after history of the city.
   
2. By David against the Jebusites (2Sam. 5:6-10; 1Chron. 11:4-7), about 960 B.C.
   
3. By Shishak king of Egypt, against Rehoboam (1Kings 14:25, 26. 2Chron. 12:2-12), about 875 B.C. To this there was only a feeble resistance; and the Temple was plundered.
   
4. By the Philistines, Arabians, and Ethiopians, against Jehoram (2Chron. 21:16, 17), about 794 B.C. In this siege the royal palace was sacked, and the Temple again plundered.
   
5. By Jehoash king of Israel, against Amaziah king of Judah (2Kings 14:13, 14), about 739 B.C. The wall was partially broken down, and the city and Temple pillaged.
   
6. By Rezin king of Syria, and Pekah king of Israel, against Ahaz (2Chron. 28), about 630 B.C. The city held out, but Ahaz sought the aid of Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria, for whom he stripped the Temple.
   
7. By Sennacherib king of Assyria, against Hezekiah (2Kings 24:10-16), about 603 B.C. In this case the siege was raised by a Divine interposition, as foretold by Isaiah the prophet.
   
8. By Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, against Jehoiakim (2Chron. 36:6-7), about 496 B.C., when the Temple was partly pillaged.
   
9. By Nebuchadnezzar again, against Jehoiachin (2Chron. 36:10), about 489 B.C., when the pillage of the Temple was carried further, and 10,000 people carried away.
   
10. By Nebuchadnezzar, against Zedekiah (2Chron. 36:17-20), 478-477 B.C. In this case the Temple was burnt with fire, and the city and the Temple lay desolate for fifty years.
    
11. By Ptolemy Soter king of Egypt, against the Jews, 320 B.C. More that 100,000 captives were taken to Egypt.
    
12. By Antiochus the Great, about 203 B.C.
    
13. By Scopus, a general of Alexander, about 199 B.C., who left a garrison.
    
14. By Antiochus IV, surnamed Epiphanes, 168 B.C. This was the worst siege since the 10th. The whole city was pillaged; 10,000 captives taken; the walls destroyed; the altar defiled; ancient manuscripts perished; the finest buildings were burned; and the Jews were forbidden to worship there. Foretold Dan. 11.
    
15. By Antiochus V, surnamed Eupator, against Judas Maccabaeus, about 162 B.C. This time honorable terms were made, and certain privileges were secured.
    
16. By Antiochus VII, surnamed Sidetes king of Syria, against John Hyrcanus, about 135 B.C.
    
17. By Hyrcanus (son of Alex. Jannaeus) and the priest Aristobulus. The siege was raised by Scaurus, one of Pompey's lieutenants, about 65 B.C.
    
18. By Pompey against Aristobulus, about 63 B.C. The machines were moved on the Sabbath, when the Jews made no resistance. Only thus was it then reduced; 12,000 Jews were slain. [Antigonus, son of Aristobulus, with a Parthian army, took the city in 40 B.C.; but there was no siege, the city was taken by a sudden surprise.]
    
19. Herod with a Roman army besieged the city in 39 B.C. for five months.
    
20. By Titus, A.D. 69 (See Ap. 50. VI, p. 61). The second Temple (Herod's) was burnt, and for fifty years the city disappeared from history, as after the 10th siege (Jer. 20:5).
    
21. The Romans had again to besiege the city in A.D. 135 against the false Messiah, Bar-Cochebas, who had acquired possession of the ruins. The city was obliterated, and renamed AElia Capitolina, and a temple was erected to Jupiter. For 200 years the city passed out of history, no Jews being permitted to approach it. This siege was foretold in Luke 19:43, 44; 21:20-24.
    
22. After 400 years of so-called Christian colonization, through the country; thousands were massacred, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed. The Emperor Heraclius afterwards defeated him, and restored the city and the church.
    
23. The Caliph Omar, in A.D. 636-7, besieged the city against Heralius. It was followed by capitulation on favorable terms, and the city passed into the hands of the Turks, in whose hands it remains to the present day.
    
24. Afdal, the Vizier of the Caliph of Egypt, besieged the two rival factions of Moslems, and pillaged the city in 1098.
    
25. In 1099 it was besieged by the army of the first Crusade.
    
26. In 1187 it was besieged by Saladin for seven weeks.
    
27. The wild Kharezmian Tartar hordes, in 1244, captured and plundered the city, slaughtering the monks and priests.
    
28. There will be a 28th according to Zech. 14, which will be raised by Messiah, even as the 7th was by Jehovah."

(from Appendix 53 of The Companion Bible)

 

[Earburner]

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was warning the brethren against false doctrine some crept in unawares was spreading. So he sent them that 2 Thess.2 Epistle to remind the brethren of what he had taught them at the first.

2 Thess 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
KJV


If you study all... of your Bible, then it becomes easy to understand just who Apostle Paul is talking about as that coming "man of sin" and "son of perdition" that will appear in Jerusalem in a new stone temple for the end, and set himself up over all that is called... God, or that is worshipped.

Apostle Paul then later links the false working by that coming "man of sin" to Jerusalem with the false one Lord Jesus taught about for the end in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:23-26. Jesus warned that if someone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", Jesus said do not believe it. That is within the time of "great tribulation" He showed, which is only at the very end of this present world. And that is the "man of sin" that Paul was reminding the brethren about (including us today).

That future event about that "man of sin" coming to play God in Jerusalem for the end, also involves another standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem, what Paul pointed to with "the temple of God".

Jesus showed that too when He quoted from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" idol event that will spiritually desolate the future Jew's temple in Jerusalem, per Daniel 11, Daniel 9:27, and Daniel 8:9-14. Now if you have not studied about that prophecy per the Book of Daniel for the end of this world, then you will default to men's stupid theories that leave Bible Scripture, and who are not given to understand this event for the very end of this world.

Here is a "stupid theory"(?):
"The natural man" is "the man of sin".
KJV 1 Cor. 2[14] But the natural man [plural] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Can you tell us which one of all who are of "the natural man", will be "the man of sin"?
Or could it be that ALL who are only "the natural man", are indeed "the man of sin", of which all who are found in that state, will be a "son of perdition (destruction)".

As we all know, Judas Iscarriot was called "the son of perdition" by Jesus, but then NT scripture says also that there shall be another "son of perdition".

If then there are TWO "son(s) of perdition", then that makes the words: "the son of perdition" as well as "the man of sin" to be understood in the plural, as it is correctly understood with the words: "the natural man".
KJV Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh ["the natural man"], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why?

Ans. "he" is only of "the natural man", being "the man of sin", aka. "the son of perdition [destruction]"
KJV 2 Thes. 1:2
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on THEM [plural] that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION [perdition] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Davy]

Here is a "stupid theory"(?):
"The natural man" is "the man of sin".
KJV 1 Cor. 2[14] But the natural man [plural] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Can you tell us which one of all who are of "the natural man", will be "the man of sin"?
Or could it be that ALL who are only "the natural man", are indeed "the man of sin", of which all who are found in that state, will be a "son of perdition (destruction)".

As we all know, Judas Iscarriot was called "the son of perdition" by Jesus, but then NT scripture says also that there shall be another "son of perdition".

If then there are TWO "son(s) of perdition", then that makes the words: "the son of perdition" as well as "the man of sin" to be understood in the plural, as it is correctly understood with the words: "the natural man".
KJV Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh ["the natural man"], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why?

Ans. "he" is only of "the natural man", being "the man of sin", aka. "the son of perdition [destruction]"
KJV 2 Thes. 1:2
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on THEM [plural] that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION [perdition] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You're only trying to pull non-existing RABBITS out of your hat, ABUSING the Scriptures.

The "natural man" phrase occurs only once in the KJV Bible, in 1 Cor.2:14, and Paul is simply talking about the NON-BELIEVER, not the Antichrist, dragon, that old serpent, man of sin, that Wicked, another beast, little horn, vile person, which are all... titles that belong to Satan only.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're only trying to pull non-existing RABBITS out of your hat, ABUSING the Scriptures.

The "natural man" phrase occurs only once in the KJV Bible, in 1 Cor.2:14, and Paul is simply talking about the NON-BELIEVER, not the Antichrist, dragon, that old serpent, man of sin, that Wicked, another beast, little horn, vile person, which are all... titles that belong to Satan only.

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unassailable hermeneutic which the natural man CANNOT receive (2nd Timothy 3:7) because he is at enmity with the Truth (2nd Thessalonians 2:10) and the authority of Scripture. It is by this Spirit that we not only receive the knowledge of truth in the word but instruction through the mind of Christ unto wisdom. Knowing God's Word, through God's Word, truth revealed through His Spirit.

For example, if I have shown someone Scripture that the antichrist is not one man but anyone who has the spirit of disobedience. The beast is not one man but the body of unbelievers/false prophets and christs. The little horn is not one man but the power for a short time. The dragon is not a physical animal that floats next to a pregnant woman in heaven but represents a spirit called Satan through wicked men trying to kill God-man from being born from the congregation of Israel. Yet, because of his carnal mind, he do not have the Spirit of Christ to understand God talk about the antichrist, man of sin, beast, little horn, etc. So he is a natural man without spiritual discernment.

 

[Davy]

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unassailable hermeneutic ....

Ha! ha! ha!, I have... to laugh! I can't help it! I love when those who TRY... to seem like they are studied in God's Word use terms like that "unassailable hermeneutic"! Love it! Well, I tell ya what, I'm gonna' ASSAIL the heck out of it here!

.... which the natural man CANNOT receive (2nd Timothy 3:7) because he is at enmity with the Truth (2nd Thessalonians 2:10) and the authority of Scripture. It is by this Spirit that we not only receive the knowledge of truth in the word but instruction through the mind of Christ unto wisdom. Knowing God's Word, through God's Word, truth revealed through His Spirit.

Apostle Paul in the 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Scripture is simply speaking about the NON-BELIEVER, those who do NOT believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.

He is referring to the difference of a BELIEVER ON CHRIST that by The Holy Spirit IS... given the SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT! But the NON-BELIEVER does not have The Holy Spirit!

You DO... recall that those who BELIEVE on Jesus Christ are PROMISED the gift of The Holy Spirit, don't you??

How is it you cannot understand the simplicity of what Paul is saying in that Scripture?

 

[Earburner]

You're only trying to pull non-existing RABBITS out of your hat, ABUSING the Scriptures.

The "natural man" phrase occurs only once in the KJV Bible, in 1 Cor.2:14, and Paul is simply talking about the NON-BELIEVER, not the Antichrist, dragon, that old serpent, man of sin, that Wicked, another beast, little horn, vile person, which are all... titles that belong to Satan only.

No, I am speaking the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to "the wisdom of men".

"The natural man" is "the man of sin", which INCLUDES every human being, who IS NOT born again of the Holy Spirit, whether they are infected by "that spirit of antichrist" or not.
KJV Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Therefore, all of such are indeed a "son of perdition" (destruction).
KJV 2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION [PERDITION] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Did you happen to notice that the word "WHEN" makes the Lords Glorious return to be a SIMULTANEOUS EVENT, all in the SAME DAY of 24 hours?
See KJV Luke 17:26-30

 

[TribulationSigns]

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unassailable hermeneutic ....

Ha! ha! ha!, I have... to laugh! I can't help it! I love when those who TRY... to seem like they are studied in God's Word use terms like that "unassailable hermeneutic"! Love it! Well, I tell ya what, I'm gonna' ASSAIL the heck out of it here!

Of course, we can see why you were laughing because they are foolishness to you as Paul stated. Go figure.

Apostle Paul in the 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Scripture is simply speaking about the NON-BELIEVER, those who do NOT believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.

No, the unbelievers of the world have nothing to do with the Church. Paul is referring to unconverted people who claim to be Christians within the congregation of God, but do not understand the hard teachings of Christ as presented in His Word. Selah!

He is referring to the difference of a BELIEVER ON CHRIST that by The Holy Spirit IS... given the SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT! But the NON-BELIEVER does not have The Holy Spirit!

How is it you cannot understand the simplicity of what Paul is saying in that Scripture?

No, it is YOU who do not get it.

The same way that the Old Testament congregation of God fell for being disobedient to His laws and was set on fire and burned. It was spiritual. Judgment must begin at the Lord's Sanctuary or Congregation, and It's a spiritual burning as it was for OT Israel.

Isaiah 42:24-25

• "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
• Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

Note what God is saying. His judgment set Israel (His congregation) on fire and yet they didn't know it. And the reason is because it is a spiritual burning wherein they are consumed and made desolate. And this ruin of God's people is discerned by the Spirit. Thus they had no ability to discern it. Just as the congregation today has no spiritual discernment of their refusal to walk in God's ways, neither are they obedient to His laws. Because it's spiritually discerned (1st Corinthians 2:14), and thus the plagues caused by their disobedience, the judgment of famine and death are not discerned. When Christ said, When you see the abomination stand in the Holy place, flee to the mountains, all will not see it. Only the elect will flee this spiritual abomination within His Holy house because only the Elect will see it as abomination. Meaning, if you don't see it as abomination, you will not flee.

Likewise, only the elect will see this destruction in God's house as a burning, a famine, a great plague and spiritual sickness. The rest (like Israel before them) will think the congregation is doing just fine and all plague will only be physically and apply to national Isreal over there in the Middle East. No for the Lord said:

Revelation 18:8

• "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

It's spiritual plagues, a spiritual burning, a spiritual famine, a spiritual death and mourning because it is God that has brought these plagues (Revelation 17:17) upon His unfaithful New Testament Congregation because of her (spiritual) fornication and refusal to repent. And evidence that this is not the end can also be seen as the passages I submitted several times.

Revelation 17:16-17

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
• For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

The point being it's spiritual nakedness (sinfulness). The 10 kings are the ones that hate the symbolic whore and that spiritually burn her with fire. It's not God at the white throne in His final judgment on the last day, it's God sending these kings to judge her prior to His handing out the second death! Why is there a pre-judgment, judgment? Because judgment has always begun at the house of God FIRST. That is why we need spiritual discernment to know when the judgment of the Church takes place. For example the signs in the sun, moon and stars. Do you even know what these are? That is the point!

But as Israel didn't think such a thing could ever happen to God's congregation, so the Church today scoffs at such prophesies and thinks it can never happen to God's Church. But they deceive themselves. God is immutable. The Old Testament Church (election) was saved by grace, and so is the new. Nothing has changed about the corporate body, nor its judgment. But as Israel was so highminded they couldn't see it, so the Church today is equally as highminded. And shall receive the same.

Romans 11:20-21

• "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
• For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

As saith the Preacher, "There is nothing new under the Sun!"...and spiritual discerned! Selah!

 

[Davy]

No, I am speaking the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to "the wisdom of men".

Nah... in your post #50 you wrongly claimed the "natural man" idea is the "man of sin"...

You said:
"The natural man" is "the man of sin".

You can't backtrack now, you already made that false statement.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14, Apostle Paul wasn't even speaking about the "man of sin" (the Antichrist to come at the end of this world). Paul was pointing to the NON-BELIEVER, which involves a whole LOT of people that reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and yet they still are not that "man of sin" Paul was pointing to in 2 Thess.2.

The crazy idea you appear to be trying to push is the false doctrine by the "synagogue of Satan" that attempts to confuse Apostle Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the coming "man of sin", a SINGULAR ENTITY, A PERSON, THE FINAL ANTICHRIST for the end of this world. Those who claim 2 Thess.2 is only about the idea of the 'spirit of antichrist' at work in the world are part of that FALSE movement to deceive the believer away... from Apostle Paul's Message there.

 

[Davy]

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unassailable hermeneutic ....


Of course, we can see why you were laughing because they are foolishness to you as Paul stated. Go figure.

I'm laughing because of how you have allowed Satan's host to deceive you away from... understanding the simplicity of the written Scriptures, AND... your vain use of that "unassailable hermeneutic" phrase to try and make others think you know what you're talking about, when you clearly do not.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14 with the "natural man" idea was NOT pointing to the Antichrist of 2 Thess.2. Paul was pointing to the NON-BELIEVER as that "natural man", and that involves a lot of people, even throughout history, that have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ and thus do not have The Holy Spirit.

The difference with the "man of sin" (the Antichrist), is that Paul warned how that SINGULAR ANTICHRIST is coming to PLAY Jesus Christ, working great signs and miracles to deceive those on earth into worshiping him in place of God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'm laughing because of how you have allowed Satan's host to deceive you away from... understanding the simplicity of the written Scriptures, AND... your vain use of that "unassailable hermeneutic" phrase to try and make others think you know what you're talking about, when you clearly do not.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14 with the "natural man" idea was NOT pointing to the Antichrist of 2 Thess.2. Paul was pointing to the NON-BELIEVER as that "natural man", and that involves a lot of people, even throughout history, that have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ and thus do not have The Holy Spirit.

The difference with the "man of sin" (the Antichrist), is that Paul warned how that SINGULAR ANTICHRIST is coming to PLAY Jesus Christ, working great signs and miracles to deceive those on earth into worshiping him in place of God.

Say a natural man because the truth is foolish to him. I rest my case.

 

[Earburner]

Nah... in your post #50 you wrongly claimed the "natural man" idea is the "man of sin"...

You said:
"The natural man" is "the man of sin".

You can't backtrack now, you already made that false statement.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14, Apostle Paul wasn't even speaking about the "man of sin" (the Antichrist to come at the end of this world). Paul was pointing to the NON-BELIEVER, which involves a whole LOT of people that reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and yet they still are not that "man of sin" Paul was pointing to in 2 Thess.2.

The crazy idea you appear to be trying to push is the false doctrine by the "synagogue of Satan" that attempts to confuse Apostle Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the coming "man of sin", a SINGULAR ENTITY, A PERSON, THE FINAL ANTICHRIST for the end of this world. Those who claim 2 Thess.2 is only about the idea of the 'spirit of antichrist' at work in the world are part of that FALSE movement to deceive the believer away... from Apostle Paul's Message there.

In the KJV, the words: "The Antichrist" do not exist. Such a term is a manipulation by church-ianity, in order to convince others that "the natural man", aka "the man of sin", "the son of perdition [destruction]" is a singular person who is suppose to come and sit in the temple of God. Unfortunately, your fabricated belief system points to a future, newly constructed temple building (of/for God?) in Jerusalem, that now is.
Sorry, in the way of your interpretation, there will be no new temple building, whereby a fictional character, they call "The Antichrist", shall supposedly sit In it.

Do you not know that every living unsaved person is a potential TEMPLE dwelling place FOR the Eternal Living God, if they would just repent towards God, through faith in Jesus, and then receive the Gift of His Holy Spirit?
But if NOT, then guess who CAN SIT WITHIN THEM at will!! Do you not also understand the parable of the Strongman??

2 Cor. 4
[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[5] For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[7] But WE [who are born again] HAVE this TREASURE in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are NOT IN the flesh, BUT IN the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If therefore any person is "none of his", then he is most assuredly a "son of perdition [destruction]"
Rev. 9
[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man TAKE THY crown.
James 1
[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Iows, do not let "the wisdom of men" of "church-ianity" deceive you, and take your crown [of eternal life].
1 Cor. 2:5; 1 John 5:11-13.

 

[Earburner]

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was warning the brethren against false doctrine some crept in unawares was spreading. So he sent them that 2 Thess.2 Epistle to remind the brethren of what he had taught them at the first.

2 Thess 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
KJV


If you study all... of your Bible, then it becomes easy to understand just who Apostle Paul is talking about as that coming "man of sin" and "son of perdition" that will appear in Jerusalem in a new stone temple for the end, and set himself up over all that is called... God, or that is worshipped.

Apostle Paul then later links the false working by that coming "man of sin" to Jerusalem with the false one Lord Jesus taught about for the end in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:23-26. Jesus warned that if someone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", Jesus said do not believe it. That is within the time of "great tribulation" He showed, which is only at the very end of this present world. And that is the "man of sin" that Paul was reminding the brethren about (including us today).

That future event about that "man of sin" coming to play God in Jerusalem for the end, also involves another standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem, what Paul pointed to with "the temple of God".

Jesus showed that too when He quoted from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" idol event that will spiritually desolate the future Jew's temple in Jerusalem, per Daniel 11, Daniel 9:27, and Daniel 8:9-14. Now if you have not studied about that prophecy per the Book of Daniel for the end of this world, then you will default to men's stupid theories that leave Bible Scripture, and who are not given to understand this event for the very end of this world.

Are there not more than one who is a "son of perdition"? Of course there is, and all who are a son of perdition [DESTRUCTION], will be destroyed.

KJV 2 Thes. 1[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting  destruction [ PERDITION] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Davy]

Say a natural man because the truth is foolish to him. I rest my case.

And you are talking directly about YOURSELF.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're false ideas are up to, whether you want to admit it or not, or even realize it or not.

There is a false faction with the Church that tries to oppose... the Biblical warnings about the coming of a SINGULAR Antichrist for the end of this world, i.e., an actual person playing Christ.

That sounds like what you are trying to use Paul's idea about the "natural man" for, trying to LINK that "natural man" idea with the "spirit of antichrist" only, in attempt to REJECT the Biblical warnings about the actual coming of a false-Messiah-Antichrist 'person' for the end of this world.

I've already heard those with their false theories, and how they reject Apostle John's first "antichrist" phrase in 1 John 2:18 which is SINGULAR, and they even reject Apostle Paul's clear warnings about a SINGULAR entity coming to play God per his 2 Thessalonians 2 Epistle.