The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

Spoken like Pharisee.

Is that the best reply you have? Do you believe the Father became the Son? If so, address my points.

 

[gadar perets]

The Son shall have the name of the everlasting Father, Isaiah 9:6. This is because He is the everlasting Father.

You preach another gospel. The true gospel summarized is "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him (the Son) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17

Your gospel is, "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave Himself, that whosoever believes in Him (the Father) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not Himself into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (all parenthesis mine).

 

[gadar perets]

If you would have read further, you would have seen the intricacies of how Jesus is not praying to Himself when he prays to the Father, although He is the everlasting Father.

I have no desire to read five pages of the intricacies of how you twist Scripture.

 

[brakelite]

You preach another gospel. The true gospel summarized is "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him (the Son) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17

Your gospel is, "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave Himself, that whosoever believes in Him (the Father) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not Himself into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (all parenthesis mine).

I am not sure which is worse. The Father becoming the son, or the three co eternal co existent consubstantial coequal beings choosing roles to play... One choosing son, one father, the other holy spirit. Although the latter is more logical if you believe in the Trinity, because a true father/son paradigm is impossible if not metaphorical. A literal begetting of the son at some point in eternity is not acceptable to Trinitarians unless they relinquish the idea of the son being of the same duration as the father... Which to me is a denial of the father and son.

 

[justbyfaith]

I suppose I shouldn't expect everyone to receive the truth of the matter...for there are those who walk according to a natural mindset and will not receive the truth...

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You preach another gospel.

No; actually you are the one who is doing that.

Jesus made it clear that if you do not receive Him as the great I AM, you do not receive Him at all, and will die in your sins, John 8:24.

Jesus is not 1/3 of God.

Your gospel is, "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave Himself, that whosoever believes in Him (the Father) should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not Himself into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (all parenthesis mine).

See John 5:24.

I will say that it is the zeal of the LORD of hosts that will perform this: that the name of the son that was given shall be called the everlasting Father.

This is because He is the everlasting Father.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Heb 2:11, For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13, And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

That He declares His name unto His brethren identifies Him as Big Brother, Jesus. That He has children identifies Him as a Father; of whom Malachi 2:10 says there is only one.

I present these things to you, not necessarily as proof; but as evidence of the facts that I am attempting to declare unto you.

 

[gadar perets]

I present these things to you, not necessarily as proof; but as evidence of the facts that I am attempting to declare unto you.

You are declaring lies. My Heavenly Father speaks the truth. Therefore, when He says He has a Son, He does NOT mean He is the Son. Yeshua speaks the truth as well. When he said his Father is the "only true God", he was NOT referring to himself. The Apostle Paul also told the truth. When he said, "The God and Father of our Master Yeshua Messiah, which is blessed for evermore, knows that I lie not", he meant Yeshua has a God and Father who is NOT himself. Who has bewitched you to believe such foolishness?

 

[justbyfaith]

You are declaring lies. My Heavenly Father speaks the truth. Therefore, when He says He has a Son, He does NOT mean He is the Son. Yeshua speaks the truth as well. When he said his Father is the "only true God", he was NOT referring to himself. The Apostle Paul also told the truth. When he said, "The God and Father of our Master Yeshua Messiah, which is blessed for evermore, knows that I lie not", he meant Yeshua has a God and Father who is NOT himself. Who has bewitched you to believe such foolishness?

You are declaring lies (you have three fingers pointing back at you, according to Matthew 7:1-5).

The truth of the matter is that Isaiah 9:6 tells us very plainly that Jesus (the Son that was given) is the everlasting Father.

And in John 17:3, the word and is the Greek word kai which can be translated even. And therefore, Jesus was referring to Himself when He said His Father was "the only true God, even Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

The Son is called God by God the Father in Hebrews 1:8-9.

And there is one God (James 2:19).

But, I'm sure that you have an explanation for all of this, by which you explain away the plain truth of holy scripture.

I can express animosity towards you as well, and accuse you of being a liar.

For that is what you are; whether you are intending to lie or not.

You simply believe in false doctrine.

If you will not believe that Jesus is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins.

 

[gadar perets]

You are declaring lies (you have three fingers pointing back at you, according to Matthew 7:1-5).

The truth of the matter is that Isaiah 9:6 tells us very plainly that Jesus (the Son that was given) is the everlasting Father.

And in John 17:3, the word and is the Greek word kai which can be translated even. And therefore, Jesus was referring to Himself when He said His Father was "the only true God, even Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

The Son is called God by God the Father in Hebrews 1:8-9.

And there is one God (James 2:19).

But, I'm sure that you have an explanation for all of this, by which you explain away the plain truth of holy scripture.

I can express animosity towards you as well, and accuse you of being a liar.

For that is what you are; whether you are intending to lie or not.

You simply believe in false doctrine.

If you will not believe that Jesus is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins.

I have already explained the true meaning of those verses, but you rejected truth.

Also, I did NOT accuse you of lying. You are sadly deceived and spreading the lies that the father of lies instilled in the minds of his ministers of light. Had the doctrines you teach come from your mind alone, then you would be a liar, but I'm sure you learned them from some man and NOT from the Holy Spirit.

If Yeshua is the I AM, I am prepared to die in my sins but I will do so believing the overwhelming evidence of Scripture that he is NOT the I AM. You would come to the same conclusion if you study what the OT says about the I AM instead of harping on one verse in John 8.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have already explained the true meaning of those verses, but you rejected truth.

Also, I did NOT accuse you of lying. You are sadly deceived and spreading the lies that the father of lies instilled in the minds of his ministers of light. Had the doctrines you teach come from your mind alone, then you would be a liar, but I'm sure you learned them from some man and NOT from the Holy Spirit.

If Yeshua is the I AM, I am prepared to die in my sins but I will do so believing the overwhelming evidence of Scripture that he is NOT the I AM. You would come to the same conclusion if you study what the OT says about the I AM instead of harping on one verse in John 8.

I will keep studying.

However, I do know that I have a foundation in understanding that it is sound doctrine that Jesus Christ is God.

You are not in the realm of orthodox Christianity in your belief that He isn't.

It is also not only one verse in John 8. It is in John 8:24 that our Lord Jesus Christ makes the doctrine an essential for salvation.

But it is clear that the Lord broke normal grammatical usage in order to make a claim in John 8:58; and that the Pharisees' response in John 8:59 indicates that they understood what it was that He was claiming. If you don't know what it is that they perceived Him to be saying, all you have to do is go to John 10:31-33; there you will find that they picked up stones to stone Him both times because He, being a Man, claimed to be God. Jesus softened the blow in His response to them, to make it more acceptable. However it should be clear that in both cases wherein they picked up stones to stone Him, they did so because they felt He was committing the sin of blasphemy.

If you are prepared to die in your sins over rejecting the Deity of the Messiah, I think that you are simply unaware of what that will mean for you. It will mean everlasting torments in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10 tells us what the lake of fire is for all who will be cast into it; and Revelation 20:11-15 shows that human beings will be cast into it. Revelation 14:9-11 also describes everlasting punishment for those who will be subject to it. Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50 tells us it will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And Matthew 25:46 tells us that it will be everlasting punishment.

So, I don't think that you want to die in your sins.

Jesus is the Messiah; and Isaiah 9:6 as a Messianic passage tells us that the Son who is given is the everlasting Father.

Deal with it; for it is a matter of scriptural truth.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Is that the best reply you have? Do you believe the Father became the Son? If so, address my points.

The Father did not become the Son at all.

No one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son, that means one has to know the Son to know the Father and this is done by the Holy Spirit, so all 3 are as one once you truly have a handle on it.
They are all one in the same but different identity's themselves, so one can see the difference then and that they are all as one as well.

Jesus Christ is who we look to because he is Emmanuel (God with us), So no one goes to the Father because no one knew the Father but only through his Son Emmanuel, because that's our Key and no one bypasses the Son because you as a person need all 3 or you are lost without all 3.
One could see it as a phone some what and you have a handle to pick up to receive and so no Trinity then the Phone is dead no reception without the 3 things working as one to be able to work.

One can not pick up as to who Jesus Christ truly is unless the Holy Spirit gives accent to the fact in reality, I knew of Jesus Christ once but I did not truly know him until I was born again.
So in my 36 years of going to Church I did not know Jesus Christ my mum and dad my sister my elder brother still do not know who he truly is as they are only water baptised but my younger brother knows him because he is Spiritually Baptised = born again in the Holy Spirit.

Many Priest do not know who Jesus Christ is in fact but only know 'of' him because they are not born again and are on a mans works religion thing and even the ones who reject mans works religion still do such, only they don't know that they do it as many who claim to be born again are all wound up in mans works religion but only they can't see it, just as they do not know the Son. as all that they are doing is god worship and they have many gods that they Idolise in fact. I can see it in them but they are oblivious to it.
Just like Pope Frances is always mentioning god where the fool should be using Jesus Christ but he will not out of fear of being condemned by the Worldly, so he plays such an idiot game to please all the fools.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father did not become the Son at all.

Hi Reggie.

Consider that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5) and that He is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And it is also clear that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

These things, if you look at them carefully, present an airtight case that Jesus is the Father; just as it is written in Isaiah 9:6.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I have already explained the true meaning of those verses, but you rejected truth.

Also, I did NOT accuse you of lying. You are sadly deceived and spreading the lies that the father of lies instilled in the minds of his ministers of light. Had the doctrines you teach come from your mind alone, then you would be a liar, but I'm sure you learned them from some man and NOT from the Holy Spirit.

If Yeshua is the I AM, I am prepared to die in my sins but I will do so believing the overwhelming evidence of Scripture that he is NOT the I AM. You would come to the same conclusion if you study what the OT says about the I AM instead of harping on one verse in John 8.

The, I Am !, here is the Father as all proceed from the Father, Jesus is not the, I Am !. as he Jesus Christ only does the will of the Father who sent him, as that's all that he does and it's for us Humans only, not anything other that Jesus came to Save.
You can't save a dog or cat ect ect at all and they do not need Salvation but we Humans sure do, or we are lost to worldly things and lead astray like a fool of ones own desires controlling your life, or to be truthful out of control and barking up the wrong tree, not to mention it's all about ones ego, as such can not truly see anyone else, because it starts and finished with oneself to be sure.

 

[gadar perets]

You are not in the realm of orthodox Christianity in your belief that He isn't.

Thankfully.

It is also not only one verse in John 8. It is in John 8:24 that our Lord Jesus Christ makes the doctrine an essential for salvation.

But it is clear that the Lord broke normal grammatical usage in order to make a claim in John 8:58; and that the Pharisees' response in John 8:59 indicates that they understood what it was that He was claiming. If you don't know what it is that they perceived Him to be saying, all you have to do is go to John 10:31-33; there you will find that they picked up stones to stone Him both times because He, being a Man, claimed to be God. Jesus softened the blow in His response to them, to make it more acceptable. However it should be clear that in both cases wherein they picked up stones to stone Him, they did so because they felt He was committing the sin of blasphemy.

I addressed this already.

If you are prepared to die in your sins over rejecting the Deity of the Messiah, I think that you are simply unaware of what that will mean for you. It will mean everlasting torments in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10 tells us what the lake of fire is for all who will be cast into it; and Revelation 20:11-15 shows that human beings will be cast into it. Revelation 14:9-11 also describes everlasting punishment for those who will be subject to it. Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50 tells us it will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And Matthew 25:46 tells us that it will be everlasting punishment.

Everlasting torments??? Another false teaching. Yeshua said only those who believe in him will receive everlasting life. So how can I have everlasting life in the lake of fire?

 

[gadar perets]

The Father did not become the Son at all.

The, I Am !, here is the Father as all proceed from the Father, Jesus is not the, I Am !. as he Jesus Christ only does the will of the Father who sent him, as that's all that he does and it's for us Humans only, not anything other that

You are finally beginning to see what justbyfaith is teaching. Hopefully you will now correct his posts instead of liking them.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thankfully.

Everlasting torments??? Another false teaching. Yeshua said only those who believe in him will receive everlasting life. So how can a have everlasting life in the lake of fire?

Evidently you didn't look up the verses referenced.

In the lake of fire it is not everlasting life but everlasting death: eternal separation from God...and yes, it is everlasting torments, whether you want to believe in it or not.

You identify as false teaching a very great amount of sound doctrine.

And you are thankful that your beliefs are not in the realm of what orthodox Christianity teaches.

This speaks volumes.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[gadar perets]

Evidently you didn't look up the verses referenced.

In the lake of fire it is not everlasting life but everlasting death: eternal separation from God...and yes, it is everlasting torments, whether you want to believe in it or not.

Torment means a living person is suffering physically or mentally. If I am dead, the dead no nothing. If I am being tormented while alive, then I have everlasting life which is contrary to Yeshua's words.

And you are thankful that your beliefs are not in the realm of what orthodox Christianity teaches.

This speaks volumes.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
​

These led to the formation of "orthodox Christianity" whose doctrines are far different than those that Yeshua taught and that were held by the Apostles.

 

[gadar perets]

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I do not deny these verses. The fire and the punishment is everlasting, but the life of those thrown in the fire is not.

 

[justbyfaith]

Torment means a living person is suffering physically or mentally. If I am dead, the dead no nothing.

Those who are dead will be raised up, some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2).

Take a chance on it as you wish. If you are wrong, then you have gambled and lost. And will also suffer eternal torments because you gambled and lost. Because if you do not believe that Jesus is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins.

So then, if you are certain that you are correct, and if you are correct, then what you have to look forward is being eternally unconscious (not sleeping, either...completely without any consciousness whatsoever...dead and gone...no more you).

While you're waiting for that moment to come, you will be in a furnace of fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth; the nature of which is that it is an everlasting fire...and the Bible teaches that you will be for ever punished in that place.

 

[gadar perets]

Those who are dead will be raised up, some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2).

Take a chance on it as you wish. If you are wrong, then you have gambled and lost. And will also suffer eternal torments because you gambled and lost. Because if you do not believe that Jesus is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins.

So then, if you are certain that you are correct, and if you are correct, then what you have to look forward is being eternally unconscious (not sleeping, either...completely without any consciousness whatsoever...dead and gone...no more you).

While you're waiting for that moment to come, you will be in a furnace of fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth; the nature of which is that it is an everlasting fire...and the Bible teaches that you will be for ever punished in that place.

You need to think about yourself instead of me. If you are wrong in making the Son the great I AM and worshipping him as though he is the Father, then it will not go well for you.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev_22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​