The Problem With The Trinity

[JesusIsFaithful]

No. How did you arrive at that conclusion from my words?

You were agreeing that God cannot be a One Person God for His witness to be true for why you were agreeing that those references can have just two Witnesses and not three for God's witness to be true, but perhaps you did not see the consequence for agreeing with scripture.

That being said, John 8:17 does not limit the third Person from being that Other Witness within the One God.

For the same reason the Holy Spirit descend upon the heads of believers in Acts 2 (as a sign that they were receiving the indwelling HS. John the Baptist was the other witness, but he was not a witness that "Jesus is God". You are reading that into the text. He was a witness that Yeshua was immersed to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15) and that he was receiving the indwelling HS.

Seems like you are reading the Father's witness of the Son in how it is true out of the text when comparing the Holy Spirit with Acts 2. God the Father was not speaking from Heaven at Pentecost.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
​

Verse 27 only pertains to the twelve disciples. We were not with Yeshua from the beginning. When I witness, I can only witness from Scripture since I was not alive in Yeshua's day. When I tell people Yeshua died, was buried and arose again the third day, Scripture is the second witness and the HS which is the mind, essence and power of the Father is the first witness. The HS is not a third person. If it was a third person, then Father YHWH would not be Yeshua's Father. The HS would be his father.

Verse 26 is not confined to the twelve in verse 27 when obviously, there were more than twelve that day of Pentecost. Proof of that below.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Verse 26 is a testimony of what the Holy Spirit will do in every believer in leading them to testify of the Son to glorify the Son.

I do not refuse the witness of the HS in me. I just don't see it as a third person. The personal attributes of the HS are the Father's.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name and Jesus designate the Spirit as not the Father since He will teach us all things and bring all to our remembrance of whatsoever Jesus has said unto us be it by the Spirit through us or by the written scripture.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

There is a degree of separation here where the Son has all that the Father has for why the Spirit will take it from the Son in giving to others.

Before Christ has ascended, the Holy Spirit served as the Spirit of the Father, but since His ascension, the Holy Spirit serves as the Spirit of Christ as the Father's words are now the Son's as the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from the Son since all power has been given unto the Son in all things.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

How can Jesus say He is with us always unless He is God? How can anyone call upon the name of the Lord to be saved when Jesus Christ is the name to call on to be saved? How can God the Father share His glory as God the Saviour with Jesus as the Saviour unless Jesus is God?

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 51Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Titus 1:4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Titus 2:10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things

Titus 2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jews understood plainly what Jesus has said. And only God can give eternal life.

 

[gadar perets]

It actually does...I could start a thread and show you that Hashem sends Hashem to the earth.

There are numerous times where Jesus is referred to as Hashem in the word. You would just have to know the word better.

"Hashem" is not in any Hebrew, Greek or popular English text that I am aware of.

Even when it says that Immanuel will be born of a virgin...in Hebrew it is not a name but a title...it is 2 words. עמנו אל ...If it was just a name it would be all one word as in Samuel. So then "El" or God will be born of a virgin...this is a sign and wonder. It is literally "God with us."

He is "God with us" because God was with him (Acts 10:38) and he (Yeshua) was with us making God with us as well.

 

[gadar perets]

You were agreeing that God cannot be a One Person God for His witness to be true for why you were agreeing that those references can have just two Witnesses and not three for God's witness to be true, but perhaps you did not see the consequence for agreeing with scripture.

I made no such agreement. YHWH, the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3), is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). Yeshua is not part of the only true God. He is the only true God's SON. God is one witness.

Seems like you are reading the Father's witness of the Son in how it is true out of the text when comparing the Holy Spirit with Acts 2. God the Father was not speaking from Heaven at Pentecost.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.​

Verse 26 is not confined to the twelve in verse 27 when obviously, there were more than twelve that day of Pentecost. Proof of that below.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Verse 26 is a testimony of what the Holy Spirit will do in every believer in leading them to testify of the Son to glorify the Son.

I agree. I disagree that the HS is a third person. I also disagree that the HS is a second witness along with the Father. The Father is one witness and He witnesses through the power of His Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name and Jesus designate the Spirit as not the Father since He will teach us all things and bring all to our remembrance of whatsoever Jesus has said unto us be it by the Spirit through us or by the written scripture.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

There is a degree of separation here where the Son has all that the Father has for why the Spirit will take it from the Son in giving to others.

Before Christ has ascended, the Holy Spirit served as the Spirit of the Father, but since His ascension, the Holy Spirit serves as the Spirit of Christ as the Father's words are now the Son's as the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from the Son since all power has been given unto the Son in all things.

I personally believe the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son and that His Spirit melds with the Son's spirit before it dwells in us. I don't teach that as doctrine. It is just how I see it.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

How can Jesus say He is with us always unless He is God?

He has been given that power, authority and ability by the only true God, Father YHWH.

How can anyone call upon the name of the Lord to be saved when Jesus Christ is the name to call on to be saved?
How can God the Father share His glory as God the Saviour with Jesus as the Saviour unless Jesus is God?

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 51Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Titus 1:4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Titus 2:10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things

Titus 2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Father YHWH is the ultimate Saviour of mankind. He does His saving work through His Son Yeshua whom He appointed to be Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14). There have been other saviours that YHWH used to save Israel (Nehemiah 9:27), but He used His only begotten Son Yeshua to save the world.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jews understood plainly what Jesus has said. And only God can give eternal life.

If the Jews plainly understood him, then why did Yeshua have to correct them in John 10:34-36? The Jews misunderstood him to be claiming to be God, but Yeshua corrected them by saying he said he was, "the Son of God". BTW, he referenced Psalm 82:6 in that passage in which "elohim" is used of the mighty men of Israel. That is the sense in which Yeshua is "elohim" as well. He is NOT Elohim in the sense that his Father YHWH is Elohim.

Anyone can give eternal life if the Father gives him that authority and power. Prior to Yeshua receiving that authority and power, he did not have that authority and power. It had to be GIVEN to him (Matthew 28:18; John 5:26). Now that the Son has been given life in himself as per John 5:26, he can impart that life to others through the power and authority given to him as per Matthew 28:18.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I made no such agreement. YHWH, the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3), is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). Yeshua is not part of the only true God. He is the only true God's SON. God is one witness.

The in according to His own words, that would make God a hypocrite and not just a false witness.

I agree. I disagree that the HS is a third person. I also disagree that the HS is a second witness along with the Father. The Father is one witness and He witnesses through the power of His Holy Spirit.

Then in according to His words in John 8:17, the Father's witness cannot be true if the Holy Spirit's witness is not counted as another Witness at Jesus's water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17.

I personally believe the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son and that His Spirit melds with the Son's spirit before it dwells in us. I don't teach that as doctrine. It is just how I see it.

Yeah.. you better stick to scripture.

He has been given that power, authority and ability by the only true God, Father YHWH.

I have given you enough scripture about how God will not share His glory with another and yet God is the Saviour while Jesus is name to call on to be saved as the Saviour.

If you expect others to take pause and heed your words and address them, then you best go back to those scripture that you seem to be purposefully overlooking.

Or better yet look at the scriptures in the OP at this link below about Jesus before His incarnation as the God that men have seen.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/jesus-before-his-incarnation.23550/

Do try to address those scripture and not deny the truth that is about Jesus as the God that men have seen in the O.T. scripture.

 

[gadar perets]

The in according to His own words, that would make God a hypocrite and not just a false witness.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Then in according to His words in John 8:17, the Father's witness cannot be true if the Holy Spirit's witness is not counted as another Witness at Jesus's water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17.

Where does Matthew 3:15-17 say the Holy Spirit was a witness at Yeshua's baptism?

I have given you enough scripture about how God will not share His glory with another and yet God is the Saviour while Jesus is name to call on to be saved as the Saviour.

If you expect others to take pause and heed your words and address them, then you best go back to those scripture that you seem to be purposefully overlooking.

Check the bottom of post #203 starting at "Father YHWH". I formatted it wrong so you probably didn't see my reply. It is fixed now.

Or better yet look at the scriptures in the OP at this link below about Jesus before His incarnation as the God that men have seen.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/jesus-before-his-incarnation.23550/

Do try to address those scripture and not deny the truth that is about Jesus as the God that men have seen in the O.T. scripture.

I am not permitted to reply in "Christian Only" forums. From what I read, the OP makes several errors and assumptions.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Pretty much what I see when you gloss over verses testifying to deity of Jesus Christ.

Where does Matthew 3:15-17 say the Holy Spirit was a witness at Yeshua's baptism?

Your refusal to apply John 8:17 is why you cannot see that the Father's witness by Himself does not make what He says about the Son as true unless by His words, the Holy Spirit counts as a separate Witness at the Son's water baptism that Jesus Christ is God.

Check the bottom of post #203 starting at "Father YHWH". I formatted it wrong so you probably didn't see my reply. It is fixed now.

I see that. Thanks for pointing that out. If you read Jesus's last reply that got His condemnation to be crucified, He did say He is God after all, but somehow, your cloudy spectacles will get in the way of reading His words plainly.

I am not permitted to reply in "Christian Only" forums. From what I read, the OP makes several errors and assumptions.

You can always hit quote and then reply, copy the quote in the reply box and paste it in the reply box here in this thread of the forum where you are allowed, brother. You should be able to do that with any topic you want to discuss in this forum here in the forum where you are limited to, I would think.

Brother.... I shall pray for you, hoping Jesus will help you see the errors you are in by seeing the truth in His words that reproves the errors you are in.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

I am not permitted to reply in "Christian Only" forums.

Wait. What? What religion are you then, and what are you presently advocating specifically, if you do not mind me asking?

Post a new thread in the non-christian forums section then, and let us study there together.

 

[gadar perets]

Pretty much what I see when you gloss over verses testifying to deity of Jesus Christ.

I don't recall glossing over any verses. I thought I addressed everything you brought up. Just because you don't like my answers doesn't mean I glossed over them.

Your refusal to apply John 8:17 is why you cannot see that the Father's witness by Himself does not make what He says about the Son as true unless by His words, the Holy Spirit counts as a separate Witness at the Son's water baptism that Jesus Christ is God.

There are two witnesses in John 8:17-18, the Father and the Son. Why isn't the Holy Spirit listed as a third witness? Since the Father is Spirit and the Father is Holy, when the HS witnesses it is the Father's witness. There were two witnesses at Yeshua's baptism, the Father and John the Baptist. Yeshua's water baptism says nothing about the Son being God. That is you reading your beliefs into the text.

I see that. Thanks for pointing that out. If you read Jesus's last reply that got His condemnation to be crucified, He did say He is God after all, but somehow, your cloudy spectacles will get in the way of reading His words plainly.

Please cite the verse. Among Yeshua's dying words were him crying out to his God, Almighty YHWH (Matthew 27:46). If Yeshua is God and he has a God he worships, then you have two Gods. You can use linguistic gymnastics all you want to get around that, but it is a fact.

You can always hit quote and then reply, copy the quote in the reply box and paste it in the reply box here in this thread of the forum where you are allowed, brother. You should be able to do that with any topic you want to discuss in this forum here in the forum where you are limited to, I would think.

I'll try it, but it may be a day or two.

 

[gadar perets]

Wait. What? What religion are you then, and what are you presently advocating specifically, if you do not mind me asking?

I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ). I was once a Christian until they kicked me out for being non-trinitarian and a Sabbath keeper (three different churches). So now I call myself a Messianic Hebrew. However, labels are irrelevant. All that matters is that I worship the only true God, Almighty YHWH, and His Son, Messiah Yeshua, lives in me as my Master and Saviour. I advocate for Biblical truth whether it be Yeshua as the Saviour of the world, pure monotheism, obedience to the commandments, holy day observance, clean foods,etc.

 

[brakelite]

All that matters is that I worship the only true God, Almighty YHWH, and His Son, Messiah Yeshua, lives in me as my Master and Saviour.

May I ask, according to your perspective on what the Bible reveals, when was the Son begotten?

 

[gadar perets]

This is from the thread entitled, "Jesus Before His Incarnation";

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.......46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Moses did not write about Yeshua as a living being in his day. He wrote about him in types, shadows and prophecies of the future Messiah.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The above references is Jesus saying that He was the Lord that was seen by men in the O.T..

Abraham did not see Yeshua. He saw Yeshua’s “day” through the eyes of faith.

It is an impossibility for Yeshua to be the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. The same being that said he was the “I AM” also said he was “YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Exodus 3:15). Who does Psalm 2:7 say?

“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."​

YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH). That alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the "I AM." But let's look into the matter a little farther.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

Yeshua is NOT the “God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob” since Exodus 3:15 and Exodus 3:6 both state the "I AM" is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yeshua is the Son of that God. Therefore, Yeshua is NOT the “I AM” either. He is the Son of the “I AM”.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This reference above is referring to man not having seen God the Father but the Son has. Again below;

It says the Son “declared” God. It does not say he "saw" God. Yeshua declared or told us about God. He told us about a being separate from himself. He told us about his Father who is the “only true God” (John 17:3).

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man has seen the Father, and so when the Lord appeared to men in the O.T., this was the Son of God appearing unto men.

Total assumption. You are reading the Son into the OT texts. All theophanies in the OT were angels, not the Son. Now that Yeshua has been glorified and sits at the right hand of the only true God, he sees YHWH (God) all the time.

He appeared unto Abraham.

Genesis 12:7And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

He appeared unto Isaac.

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

He appeared unto Jacob;

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

He appeared unto Moses;

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

So before His incarnation, Jesus was the God that men had seen in the Old Testament that Moses had written about as led by the Holy Ghost.

Everything you wrote above is total assumption. You are again reading your own beliefs into the text. Who did Jacob wrestle with in Genesis 32:24-30?

Hosea 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spoke with us;​

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So why are you adding you own interpretation into all those verses above? Do you see them naming the Son? No. I can just as well say they refer to the preexistent Apostle Paul, but that would be reading him into the text as well.

The Word of God is the Creator by Whom all things were made by.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again you read the Son into the text. You assume the “logos” is a preexistent living being when, in reality, it is the Father’s spoken words and thoughts. I can’t blame you though. The blame falls on the Trinitarian translators who put their own bias into the text. The assumed the logos was the Son so they translated the pronouns as “him” instead of “it” as several major versions that preceded the KJV did. For example, Tyndale’s translation reads;

In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
The same was in the beginnynge with God.
All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.​

Other major versions like Matthew's Bible, The Geneva Bible, The Bishop’s Bible, and The Great Bible translate it similarly. Of course, that is exactly what the rest of Scripture teaches us when it says YHWH spoke everything into existence. Yeshua does not enter the text until John 1:7. Verse 14 then tells us that YHWH’s spoken words and thoughts were made flesh (Yeshua). Yeshua was spoken into existence in Miriam’s womb. He was not a living being that was somehow miniaturized and put in her womb.

 

[gadar perets]

May I ask, according to your perspective on what the Bible reveals, when was the Son begotten?

He was begotten as flesh when he was born to Miriam (John 1:14). He was begotten as spirit (literally born again) when he was resurrected (Acts 13:33).

 

[Stranger]

He was begotten as flesh when he was born to Miriam (John 1:14). He was begotten as spirit (literally born again) when he was resurrected (Acts 13:33).

Except His body was resurrected, and His Spirit was with it. That is the whole point of 'resurrection'. The term 'only begotten' speaks to Jesus as the covenant Son. The One in whom all the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are in. Just like when God called Isaac Abraham's only son. But he wasn't his only son. But he was the one in whom all the Abrahamic promises were found. (Gen. 22:2) (Gen. 16:15) (Gen. 25:1-5)

Jesus Christ is declared as the 'only begotten' at the resurrection. The Spirit of Christ was as the Son, always existing with the Father. Not begotten.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Except His body was resurrected, and His Spirit was with it. That is the whole point of 'resurrection'.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
​

The term 'only begotten' speaks to Jesus as the covenant Son. The One in whom all the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are in. Just like when God called Isaac Abraham's only son. But he wasn't his only son. But he was the one in whom all the Abrahamic promises were found. (Gen. 22:2) (Gen. 16:15) (Gen. 25:1-5)

Jesus Christ is declared as the 'only begotten' at the resurrection. The Spirit of Christ was as the Son, always existing with the Father. Not begotten.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

This refers to the Son before he was resurrected.

 

[Stranger]

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
​

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

This refers to the Son before he was resurrected.

A spiritual body is still a body. It is not just a resurrection of spirit.

As I said, 'only begotten' speaks to Jesus as the covenant Son. See post #213 again. It doesn't speak to a time when He was begotten. The Son was never begotten. The Son given a body and then that union being born unto God occurred at the resurrection.

Stranger

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ). I was once a Christian until they kicked me out for being non-trinitarian and a Sabbath keeper (three different churches). So now I call myself a Messianic Hebrew. However, labels are irrelevant. All that matters is that I worship the only true God, Almighty YHWH, and His Son, Messiah Yeshua, lives in me as my Master and Saviour. I advocate for Biblical truth whether it be Yeshua as the Saviour of the world, pure monotheism, obedience to the commandments, holy day observance, clean foods,etc.

Would you be interested in a study together in another thread dedicated to the subject, or a private conversation, which is easier to dialogue without interruption? I am interested in your background and have some questions. Please let me know.

 

[gadar perets]

Would you be interested in a study together in another thread dedicated to the subject, or a private conversation, which is easier to dialogue without interruption? I am interested in your background and have some questions. Please let me know.

If you don't want interruptions, then feel free to PM me.

 

[gadar perets]

A spiritual body is still a body. It is not just a resurrection of spirit.

I believe Yeshua became a life giving spirit that has the ability to manifest a physical body (John 20:27), spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44), or no body at all (1 Corinthians 15:45).

 

[brakelite]

He was begotten as flesh when he was born to Miriam (John 1:14). He was begotten as spirit (literally born again) when he was resurrected (Acts 13:33).

So did God send His Son, or did God send someone else to become a Son?

 

[gadar perets]

So did God send His Son, or did God send someone else to become a Son?

He sent His Son.