The Pre-Trib Rapture

[rockytopva]

My beliefs are that no Christian will be able to survive the period of the Anti-Christ (3.5 Years... Revelation 13:5) and tribulation (3.5 Years... See the following). So my timeline (times are approximate) has it...

Period of the seven church ages 33 - 2053 AD (My take on the church ages)

Period of the four horseman 1776 AD - 2060 AD
1. White - Democracy - Our mission has been to fight the worlds battles!
2. Red - Communism - Red China is still communist!
3. Black - The time we live - Look for many to loose their faith!
4. Pale - The Antichrist - As no one will be able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:7)

The Rapture will happen as the Antichrist is revealed...
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (Laodicea), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Pale Horseman);- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Followed by the seven trumpets or the main part of tribulation...

1. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. - Revelation 8:7
2 .The second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; - Revelation 8:8
____And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
3. The third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
____And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
___ Note!!! Star is Chernobyl is Russian!!!
4. The fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
___And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
5. The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
___Revelation 9: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
6. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates...
___Revelation 9: 13,14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
7. The seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Ending in seven vials...

1. the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
2. the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
3. the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
4. the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
5. the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
6. the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
7. the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The second coming of Christ...

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - Revelation 19:11

We will return with him to reign 1,000 years on the earth...

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6

 

[tomwebster]

My beliefs are that no Christian will be able to survive the period of the Anti-Christ (3.5 Years... Revelation 13:5) and tribulation (3.5 Years... See the following). So my timeline (times are approximate) has it...

I don’t need YOUR timeline, I have God’s. I know what to watch for and that I have power over the antichrist. If you would stop reading fairy tales and stuck with God’s Word you would see that also.

 

[Duckybill]

I know what to watch for and that I have power over the antichrist.

Revelation 13:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

 

[rockytopva]

I don’t need YOUR timeline, I have God’s. I know what to watch for and that I have power over the antichrist. If you would stop reading fairy tales and stuck with God’s Word you would see that also.

Newsflash! Tom Webster! You don't know everything! And had you the Holy Spirit you would show a lot more humility than you do here on CB.

 

[tomwebster]

Revelation 13:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

If I am killed, I win! If I live, I win! I will still be in the fight. The Word’s of Christ to His disciples are just as true now as they were then.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I am not going to run from the fight!

Newsflash! Tom Webster! You don't know everything! And had you the Holy Spirit you would show a lot more humility than you do here on CB.

:) :)

 

[veteran]

Let's just see how your beliefs stand up to measure in The Word of God.

My beliefs are that no Christian will be able to survive the period of the Anti-Christ (3.5 Years... Revelation 13:5) and tribulation (3.5 Years... See the following). So my timeline (times are approximate) has it...

Period of the seven church ages 33 - 2053 AD (My take on the church ages)

This idea of 7 Church ages has been refuted many times. The 7 Messages our Lord Jesus gave to the seven Churches in Asia is about 7 TYPES of Churches that exist THROUGHOUT history of all His Church on earth, from Acts all the way up to Christ's future return. ALL 7 of those symbolic Messages are still in effect for all Churches today. Pick any Church today, and it will fit one of those 7 Messages our Lord Jesus gave there in Rev.2 & 3. How can we know this?

It's because Christ said at the end of Rev.1 that the seven candlesticks ARE the seven Churches. Those seven candlesticks are in Heaven, meaning per a Heavenly Pattern (per Zech.4), and ONLY Christ Jesus can remove them (even as He warned to the Church at Ephesus in Rev.2). Treating those 7 Messages like they are historical periods is like trying to toy with the Heavenly candlestick pattern that Only Christ controls.

Period of the four horseman

1776 AD - 2060 AD
1. White - Democracy - Our mission has been to fight the worlds battles!
2. Red - Communism - Red China is still communist!
3. Black - The time we live - Look for many to loose their faith!
4. Pale - The Antichrist - As no one will be able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:7)

There's some... connection there with no.3 and no.4 to the seven Signs of the end which Christ gave, but no.1 and no.2 are way off of Scripture support. The white horse of Rev.6 is about a conqueror with a bow of simple fabric and one simple crown; it is in comparison to how Christ returns on a white horse in Rev.19, wearing many... diadems (crowns). The Rev.6 white horse rider thus represents a 'fake', the pseudo Christ our Lord Jesus warned us of in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22. The red horse of Rev.6 is a war horse, for that's the sign Christ gave about wars and rumours of wars continuing until they stop for a short time just before the end of this world. At present, the main war against Christ on earth is with radical Islam, only supported by Communism. The pale horse of Rev.6 represents Satan's locust army taking control over the earth in four parts.

The Rapture will happen as the Antichrist is revealed...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (Laodicea), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Pale Horseman);- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Once again, the time of falling away has nothing do with the idea of Christ's seven Messages to the seven Churches being Church ages. Another proof for this is how Christ's Messages to the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia both involve tribulation timing events.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul showed that the time of the falling away (apostasy) is linked with the time of Antichrist's evil working of all power and signs and lying wonders to deceive. And only when Christ returns to destroy "that Wicked" with the brightness of His coming is that Antichrist finally 'revealed' as to his true identity. 2 Thess.2 beyond a doubt is declaring the Antichrist MUST come first and work his evil working to deceive, and after that Christ returns to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming. It's common sense even, that the Antichrist working must be in operation prior to Christ's coming to destroy him. That Antichrist has NOT been revealed to the world yet, nor is he started his evil working for the period yet, for it MUST involve him sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, like Paul said in 2 Thess.2:4. That Temple means a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, the VERY idea Christ was talking about from the Book of Daniel about the Antichrist placing the abomination that maketh desolate inside the temple, the same event at the end of Rev.13 about the setting up of the "image of the beast" (an idol abomination).

Followed by the seven trumpets

or the main part of tribulation...

1. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. - Revelation 8:7
2 .The second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; - Revelation 8:8

____And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
3. The third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
____And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
___ Note!!! Star is Chernobyl is Russian!!!
4. The fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
___And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
5. The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
___Revelation 9: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
6. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates...
___Revelation 9: 13,14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
7. The seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ gave the last 3 Trumpet events in order, linking 3 Woe periods to them so they cannot be taken out of order. Only on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is anything mentioned about the idea of the resurrection (Rev.11). That reveals a Post-trib coming and gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus, not a Pre-trib coming or gathering.

Ending in seven vials...

1. the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
2. the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
3. the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
4. the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
5. the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
6. the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
7. the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In between the 6th and 7th Vials, Christ gives a warning to His saints that He will come 'as a thief', and for His saints to keep their garments and stay watching lest they appear naked in shame. That is just prior to the gathering of the nations for battle at Armageddon that will happen on the 7th Vial when Christ returns with His alseep saints to fight at that battle. So at the 6th Vial, Christ's return and our gathering to Him has not yet occurred. Any placing of a rapture prior to that time is adding to the Scripture and is a falsehood.

The second coming of Christ...

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - Revelation 19:11

That Rev.19 Scripture IS about the ONLY coming of Christ Jesus and our gathering to Him. That is on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. Not anytime before.

We will return with him to reign 1,000 years on the earth...

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6

There is nothing written in our Lord's Book of Revelation that shows His saints are raptured prior to the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. The ones returning with Christ are the asleep saints, the saints that have already preceded us to Heaven. We will be gathered with them at that time of the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial, and at that time ONLY. Not any other time.

Thus nothing that you have given supports the idea of a Pre-tribulation rapture of the saints.

 

[Duckybill]

If I am killed, I win! If I live, I win! I will still be in the fight. The Word’s of Christ to His disciples are just as true now as they were then.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I am not going to run from the fight!

Romans 13:1-2 (KJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [sup]2 [/sup]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 

[tomwebster]

Romans 13:1-2 (KJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [sup]2 [/sup]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

It is exactly by God's power that we defeat Satan. That is why I have no fear, we have power over him.

 

[Duckybill]

It is exactly by God's power that we defeat Satan. That is why I have no fear, we have power over him.

Many who say such things are referring to using violence, the way of Satan.

 

[Foreigner]

Many who say such things are referring to using violence, the way of Satan.

-- Funny, in 30-plus years of knowing who God is, I have NEVER heard anyone say that, let alone imply or support it.

Just who are the "many?" Care to elaborate?

 

[tomwebster]

Many who say such things are referring to using violence, the way of Satan.

So, is that true when God uses violence also. Maybe you don't think God uses violence, then you haven't read much Scripture. Do you think Rev 12: 7 is talking about a walk in the park?

 

[Duckybill]

-- Funny, in 30-plus years of knowing who God is, I have NEVER heard anyone say that, let alone imply or support it.

You've never heard anyone say that violence is Satan's way?

Just who are the "many?" Care to elaborate?

Those who ask God to protect them and then use violence to answer their own prayer.

 

[Duckybill]

So, is that true when God uses violence also.

Maybe you don't think God uses violence, then you haven't read much Scripture. Do you think Rev 12: 7 is talking about a walk in the park?

Nobody can tell God what to do or how to do it. He makes the rules. This rule is for Christians:

Matthew 5:39 (ESV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil.

If you care to pursue this subject you should start a new thread.

 

[tomwebster]

Nobody can tell God what to do or how to do it. He makes the rules. This rule is for Christians:

Matthew 5:39 (ESV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil.

If you care to pursue this subject you should start a new thread.

What is the context of Matthew 5: 39 db?

 

[Duckybill]

What is the context of Matthew 5: 39 db?

I don't want to hi-jack this thread.

 

[rockytopva]

According to Wikipedia... Wikipedia and the rapture

"There are many views among Christians regarding the timing of Christ's return (including whether it will occur in one event or two), and various views regarding the destination of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17"

In which why I state my arguments as "My timeline" and not God's. We must understand that there is no universal agreement on the doctrine of the end times.

[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16, 17, 18




Finally these scripture are there for our comfort... Not to war one with another!

 

[veteran]

Finally these scripture are there for our comfort... Not to war one with another!

Christ's servants didn't start that war, the false prophets did. And the only way we defeat them is by putting on the whole armor of God, which includes the Sword of The Spirit which is The Word of God (Ephesians 6). And it's not difficult to tell when one of Christ's servants is not using that Sword of The Spirit which is The Word of God.

 

[Joshua David]

Christ's servants didn't start that war, the false prophets did. And the only way we defeat them is by putting on the whole armor of God, which includes the Sword of The Spirit which is The Word of God (Ephesians 6). And it's not difficult to tell when one of Christ's servants is not using that Sword of The Spirit which is The Word of God.

Exactly all you have to do is totally agree with whatever Veteran says is the truth, because he is the only one has heard from the Holy Spirit, and only those people who believe exactly like him follow God. All those other people are false prophets, and are doing Satan's work.

Do I have that right? Oh you may not put it in those exact words, but isn't this what you really think? Be honest.

Hmm......I got a riddle for you Veteran.

What do you, the Pope, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, David Koresh, and John Smith all have in common?

Answer They all thought that they were the only ones who knew the truth and yet they all thought something different.


Joshau David

 

[rockytopva]

Hmm......I got a riddle for you Veteran.

What do you, the Pope, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, David Koresh, and John Smith all have in common?

Answer They all thought that they were the only ones who knew the truth and yet they all thought something different.

Joshua David.... Good answer! Only you forgot TomWebster...

 

[tomwebster]

jd and r,

I think I agree with Veteran more often than not. I am prepared to stand before God for what I teach.