The Pre-Trib Rapture

[rockytopva]

The Greek word in Revelation 2&3 that is translated as "church" literally means "an assembly".

That Greek word ekklēsia is the same word that Jesus and the rest of the apostles used to describe the church...

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18

The word church here is the same church used in Revelation and the rest of scripture.

 

[veteran]

In the messages to the seven churches, the messages to the churches in Sardis and Philadelphia refer to a pre-trib rapture.

Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Being worthy ties in to the accounted worthy of Luke 20:35 and 21:36.

The hour of temptation refers to the tribulation period that will come upon all the world.

Since you quoted me, I'll take that to mean you're up for the challenge.

With Rev.3:4, our Lord Jesus Christ is only making the point that some there that will be at Christ's side, serving Him after the separation of His sheep from the goats (Matt.25). More detail of that is given in Ezekiel 44 with a distinction between two main groups of priests, one group that will NOT be allowed in His direct Presence, and the other The Just (Zadok) that will serve Him at His table.

There is nothing within that pointing to a Pre-trib rapture prior to the tribulation. Interpreting that it does just goes to show how the Pre-trib preachers have made many spiritually drunken in that doctrine that makes them blinded.

In the Rev.3:10 verse, being kept from the "hour of temptation" has a specific meaning. It simply means not being... 'tempted'. Any idea of a physical removal, like a rapture, has to be added by those who are drunken in the night on pre-trib doctrines.

Furthermore, the way rockytopva has taught that those seven Messages to the Churches is about historical periods only, but that Message to the Church of Philadelphia gives a tribulation time warning, reveals once again how many are drunken in the night today with doctrines from wolves in sheep's clothing hiding behind many pulpits.

 

[rockytopva]

You guys (oh ye weak in scripture) have also not considered the impact of Ezekiel 38 and that this also must happen pre-trib...

Don't forget that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 must come to pass. Israel is going to be attacked by a large Islamic army... In which God the Father is going to violently repel...


1. There will be a large army set forth against Israel that will span between Libya and Iran and as far north as Russia - Ezekiel 38:1,2,3,4,5,6,7

2. This will happen to Israel after they have been gathered from many nations (after 1950) - Ezekiel 38:8,9,10,11,12,13

3. This will happen in the 'latter years' not the 'last years' and will be a pre-trib event - Ezekiel 38:14,15,16

3. When they come to Israels doors... God's anger will 'fly up in his face.' - Ezekiel 38:17,18,19,20,21,22,23

4. 5/6 of the army will be destroyed. It will take 7 months to bury the dead. - Ezekiel 39:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

5. Then shall the nations know the fables of Islam and will know that God himself did revive Israel - Ezekiel 39:21,22,23

 

[veteran]

Guys... I have presented my thinking both in video (My you tube video on the subject) and a well constructed time-line...

http://www.christian...e-trib-rapture/


In which I have also did you a favor by not saying 'this is God's timeline' and threatening you with damnation for not accepting my views on the subject. Please do the same! If you have PowerPoint 2010 you can build you a presentation, save it as a .wmv video, and then upload it to YouTube... This way I can get the big picture of the thoughts you are trying to present!

To your original timeline post at that link, I gave rebuttal to which you never responded:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14071-the-pre-trib-rapture/page__view__findpost__p__112457

And now you all you want to do is advertise pre-trib rapture doctrines of men.

 

[rockytopva]

To your original timeline post at that link, I gave rebuttal to which you never responded:

http://www.christian...post__p__112457

And now you all you want to do is advertise pre-trib rapture doctrines of men.

Please repost if it is that important to you... And consider the prophecies of Ezekiel here too!

Don't forget that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 must come to pass. Israel is going to be attacked by a large Islamic army... In which God the Father is going to violently repel...


1. There will be a large army set forth against Israel that will span between Libya and Iran and as far north as Russia - Ezekiel 38:1,2,3,4,5,6,7

2. This will happen to Israel after they have been gathered from many nations (after 1950) - Ezekiel 38:8,9,10,11,12,13

3. This will happen in the 'latter years' not the 'last years' and will be a pre-trib event - Ezekiel 38:14,15,16

3. When they come to Israels doors... God's anger will 'fly up in his face.' - Ezekiel 38:17,18,19,20,21,22,23

4. 5/6 of the army will be destroyed. It will take 7 months to bury the dead. - Ezekiel 39:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

5. Then shall the nations know the fables of Islam and will know that God himself did revive Israel - Ezekiel 39:21,22,23

 

[tomwebster]

Webster... Please... Organize your thinking and present to us your thinking in a chronological format... Post us something in a format where we can analyze. As a history guy I have spent many years at the Virginia Tech library and have read my bible trough seven times. In all my studies I have never once heard the seven churches taught as assemblies. And I do hold myself accountable for my postings.

Your material is not organized and is hard to make sense of.

Those that are meant to understand, understand. Those that aren’t, don't. God will hold all of us accountable for what we teach. You just keep believing as you do, we'll see how it works out for you, rock!

 

[TWC]

That Greek word ekklēsia is the same word that Jesus and the rest of the apostles used to describe the church...

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18

The word church here is the same church used in Revelation and the rest of scripture.

Ekklēsia is the root word. The passage you quoted in Matthew uses a different form of the word.

3. This will happen in the 'latter years' not the 'last years' and will be a pre-trib event - Ezekiel 38:14,15,16

Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

 

[veteran]

Please repost if it is that important to you... And consider the prophecies of Ezekiel here too!

Don't forget that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 must come to pass. Israel is going to be attacked by a large Islamic army... In which God the Father is going to violently repel...

No need for me to repost it again brother, I gave you the link to it above.

I'm aware of the final battle of this present world, called Armageddon in Rev.16:16 and it happens on the 7th Vial, which is also Christ's coming being shown there. It's the same battle that God will fight at the end of Ezek.39, which leads into Christ's thousand years reign at Ezek.40 forward. Ezekiel 38 mentions what specific nations are involved into coming upon God's people on that last day.

1. There will be a large army set forth against Israel that will span between Libya and Iran and as far north as Russia - Ezekiel 38:1,2,3,4,5,6,7

2. This will happen to Israel after they have been gathered from many nations (after 1950) - Ezekiel 38:8,9,10,11,12,13

The battle is given there in Ezek.38-39, but no pre-trib rapture is given there at all. Just quoting Scripture numbers is not enough. I can cover each one of those verses, or the whole chapters in context which is always the preferred method of studying God's Word, line upon line. Let's do that...

Ezek 38:8
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
(KJV)

That great army out of the northern quarters will come upon the nation of Israel, in the "latter years". No pre-trib rapture in that.

Ezek 38:9-13
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, "I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, "Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?"
(KJV)

Once again, that's not about a pre-trib rapture, it's about the nation state of Israel in the middleast on the last day of this present world. And it can also point to the Christian west, because there are many, many Israelites still located in the Christian nations today, and will still be then too.

3. This will happen in the 'latter years' not the 'last years' and will be a pre-trib event - Ezekiel 38:14,15,16

Ezek 38:14-16
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when My people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
(KJV)

Once again, nothing in that about a pre-trib gathering of the saints to Christ. That event will happen on the last day, the day when Christ returns per Rev.16, for that event is about the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16. It's about this...

Ezek 38:22
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
(KJV)

Which is the same timing for this...

Rev 16:21
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)

3. When they come to Israels doors... God's anger will 'fly up in his face.' - Ezekiel 38:17,18,19,20,21,22,23

Ezek 38:17-23
17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face.
19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Those events in bold are about events that only occur on 'the day of The Lord'. There are many Scripture example about that in God's Word. In 1 Thess.5, Paul tells us that's the day that Christ will come 'as a thief' (also in 2 Peter 3:10).

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

Rev 16:18-19
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(KJV)

That's about the time of God's wrath. It's what ENDS the great tribulation upon Christ's saints. God's cup of wrath is a tribulation ONLY upon the wicked.


Ezek.38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all My mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify Myself, and sanctify Myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

No evidence of pre-trib rapture there at all. A pre-trib believer must believe the wolves in sheep's clothing that promise them they won't be on earth during that, which is adding an idea to the Scripture which is not written there.

4. 5/6 of the army will be destroyed. It will take 7 months to bury the dead. - Ezekiel 39:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

Ezek 39:1-13
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Still no pre-trib rapture in all that.


6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let them pollute My holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

You mean God's people, and the Gentiles ("heathen") are not destroyed by that cup of God's wrath upon that army coming out of the northern quarters upon the lands of Israel? NOPE. Funny how the pre-trib doctrines preach God can't protect Christ's Church upon the earth during that event and must take them out beforehand, while Scripture shows God can protect even the unbelieving Gentiles through it.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

Even some in that band that comes upon Israel on the last day will STILL be preserved through God's cup of wrath to go up to Jerusalem to worship Christ during His thousand years reign. If God can preserve even a remnant of those, why can't He preserve, on earth, His own Church of Christ during that time of His wrath upon the wicked? That all the more shows how weak the pre-trib doctrines are in failing to recognize God's Power.

Ezek.39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Did you know the "house of Israel" label is a ten tribe only label after God split Israel into two nations after Solomon's days? These events are not just pointing to the holy lands, but to the Christian nations also, Christ's Body.

5. Then shall the nations know the fables of Islam and will know that God himself did revive Israel - Ezekiel 39:21,22,23

PROBLEM: You left out the Ezekiel 39:14 through 20 verses in your listing. Let us see why you probably did that...


Ezek 39:14-20
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to My sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

That is the same event given at the end of Rev.19 at our Lord Jesus' second coming. It is called in Rev.19:17 "the supper of the great God". It will not only affect the lands of Israel, but over all the earth. It is when God is going to remove the vail that is the covering over all nations (Isa.25). It involves the 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' when all peoples will be changed per 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump" (7th Trumpet of Rev.10 and 11). It's the only time of Christ coming to gather His saints that is written of.

Ezek 39:21-29
21 And I will set My glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see My judgment that I have executed, and My hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.

On that day is when the mystery of the ten lost tribes of Israel will be solved, for everyone, especially those of ten tribes that think they are Gentiles scattered among Gentiles, and their brother Judah which kept their heritage as Israel, will know what the fathers did to cause God to scatter the ten tribes so that they were no more His people. In Amos 9 God said He will sift the ten tribes of the house of Israel like corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground. On that day, the Gentiles will also know who the ten tribes scattered among there are. Many, many of those ten lost tribes are CHRISTIANS today mixed among the Gentiles.

So how is it, that God does this great gathering of the ten tribes AFTER that battle against the northern armies?

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

When Jacob is mentioned after God split Israel into two separate 'houses' and nations, it means ALL the seed of Israel. To stress that point, God in this one place is showing "the whole house of Israel" put for all the seed of Israel. Still no pre-trib rapture here. This gathering is AFTER the battle of Armageddon when Christ returns to this earth.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, Which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Nothing there about a pre-trib rapture of Christ's Church. All you've done is to go around in circles trying to fool others with a pre-trib rapture doctrine that cannot be supported by those Scriptures.

 

[rockytopva]

Nothing there about a pre-trib rapture of Christ's Church. All you've done is to go around in circles trying to fool others with a pre-trib rapture doctrine that cannot be supported by those Scriptures.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3


Pre Trib!

And I did not tie in the rapture with Ezekiel 38... Just pointed out that it is pre-trib.

 

[veteran]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Pre Trib!

Those on the pre-trib doctrine do what you're doing all the time, omit important Scripture that conflicts with the pre-trib ideas...

II Th 2:1-8
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Most of you intentionally leave out that 4th verse which goes with Paul's warning in verse 3. I've seen that done many times, which is the obvious omitting of Scripture to try and support a false idea.

Two events MUST occur PRIOR to Christ gathering of His saints at His coming. That "man of sin" must be revealed, in the sense of his identity, AND that false one must sit in the temple of God, showing himself to be God, which involves a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem for the last days.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
(KJV)

When is that Wicked one revealed? ONLY when Christ comes to consume him with the Spirit of His mouth, AND with the brightness of His coming.

That means a post-tribulation coming by Christ and gathering of His elect saints.

 

[rockytopva]

In which you guys don't have grounds of accusing me of teaching false stuff... Seeing the lack of evidence. Just because I am not following the gospel according to Veteran, Profit, and Webster does not make me a false teacher!

 

[veteran]

In which you guys don't have grounds of accusing me of teaching false stuff... Seeing the lack of evidence. Just because I am not following the gospel according to Veteran, Profit, and Webster does not make me a false teacher!

Don't go now crying over it just because you've failed by Scripture to prove the pre-trib doctrines you've accepted instead of the simple Word of God. You didn't start those pre-trib doctrines, so it's not you that is originating those ideas here. You can get mad at me all you want, if that's what it takes to get you to study God's Word for yourself more, asking His direct help in it. But if you keep 'wanting' to see something in Scripture that isn't really there, God will let you have it, deceiving yourself. It don't matter how many friends and family you may know that have traditionally believed on the pre-trib doctrines, nor how many people in a Church that preaches it that you may love, nor the preachers you listen to that preach it. If you remove all those factors of how others may sway you, you might then give The Holy Spirit a chance to cut through all that and open up The Scriptures to you directly.

 

[rockytopva]

Don't go now crying over it just because you've failed by Scripture to prove the pre-trib doctrines you've accepted instead of the simple Word of God. You didn't start those pre-trib doctrines, so it's not you that is originating those ideas here. You can get mad at me all you want, if that's what it takes to get you to study God's Word for yourself more, asking His direct help in it. But if you keep 'wanting' to see something in Scripture that isn't really there, God will let you have it, deceiving yourself. It don't matter how many friends and family you may know that have traditionally believed on the pre-trib doctrines, nor how many people in a Church that preaches it that you may love, nor the preachers you listen to that preach it. If you remove all those factors of how others may sway you, you might then give The Holy Spirit a chance to cut through all that and open up The Scriptures to you directly.

Tim LaHaye Responds to Camping's Failed Predictions
by Dr. Tim LaHaye

Never in all the years that I taught Bible prophecy have I been interviewed by so many in the media about a potential date for the end of the world as I was during the days leading up to Harold Camping’s prediction of May 21st as the “Judgment Day” to be followed by the end of the world in October. Obviously Camping was 100 percent wrong. God’s Word clearly says: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only” (Matthew 24:36).

Camping is a good example of those who spiritualize or allegorize Bible prophecy. When they interpret the Bible in this way, they are always wrong! In this case not only was he wrong about the date of the supposed end of the world, but he seemed also to merge the judgment and the rapture together. The truth is they are at least seven years apart. The rapture will come first when Jesus fulfills His promise found in John 14:1-3, where He promises to come again after He prepares a place for us (His followers). His crucifixion paid for the sins of all mankind, and those who accept this undeserving gift of forgiveness and become believers in His death and His resurrection for they will be taken to His Father’s house in heaven. The end of the world as we know it won’t come until He returns in power as the King of Kings to set up His millennial Kingdom on this earth. This won’t happen until after the seven-year tribulation ,– which Jesus warned us to avoid (Matt. 24:21).

The sad part of the media hysteria of Camping’s predictions is that it may cause those who do not yet follow Christ to lose confidence in the Christian message that the time WILL come when Jesus actually does call His believers to Himself, and they won’t be ready. Any serious student of Bible prophecy knows that it could be very soon. There are more signs that Jesus could come today than at any other time in history. This is why everyone should examine his own heart to make certain he has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior of His life so when He does come, he WILL NOT BE LEFT BEHIND!

For those of us called to teach the prophetic Word of God and to all Christians In fact, Camping’s insistence on setting a date is an embarrassment. Having demonstrated that he was wrong three times, he now has the audacity to set a fourth date, October 21st. “Don’t be deceived, God is not mocked!” One thing is certain, Jesus is coming at a set time and day and hour known only to the Heavenly Father. What is important is that you have accepted Him as the only Savior who can bring you to the Father for He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6.

So... I am not the only one who teaches things this way.

http://www.leftbehind.com/05_news/tim-lahaye-responds-to-campings-failed-predictions.asp

 

[tomwebster]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Any idea what the word "falling away" is in the Greek, rocko? They are not being taken away by Christ, they are being taken by the antichrist, just as the first taken in Matthew 24: 40-41 are taken by the antichrist.

 

[veteran]

Tim LaHaye Responds to Camping's Failed Predictions
by Dr. Tim LaHaye

Never in all the years that I taught Bible prophecy have I been interviewed by so many in the media about a potential date for the end of the world as I was during the days leading up to Harold Camping’s prediction of May 21st as the “Judgment Day” to be followed by the end of the world in October. Obviously Camping was 100 percent wrong. God’s Word clearly says: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only” (Matthew 24:36).

....

Now you go quoting pre-trib doctrinists like Tim LaHaye? Just how much MORE do you like him than our Saviour Jesus Christ and His Holy Writ?

Did you know that some airline companies have a policy that only one Christian pilot can be up front on a flight? It's supposed just in case, the pre-trib rapture happens, there will still be a pilot to fly the airplane!

Some pre-trib Churches now take Tim LaHaye's books and study them in Sunday School, INSTEAD OF GOD'S WORD DIRECTLY FROM THE BIBLE.

If the Monthy Quarterlies sent to pastors from their religious organizations in some far away city telling them what to preach isn't bad enough, now they're doing Tim LaHaye's Left-Behind series, treating them like they're The Word of God!

What confusion!!

 

[revturmoil]

In which you guys don't have grounds of accusing me of teaching false stuff... Seeing the lack of evidence. Just because I am not following the gospel according to Veteran, Profit, and Webster does not make me a false teacher!

Jesus said that the gathering occurs after the tribulation. Pre-tribbers would like you to believe that Mt. 24 is meant for Jews. If that were true, then the word elect would mean Jews. But it doesn't. It means 'christians'.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

Elect is 'eklektos' and it means...

) picked out, chosena) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

If a Jew would have been implied in the text he probably would have used this word.

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

This alone debunks pretribulationism and therefore you are teaching a false doctrine.

 

[rockytopva]

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:37

Pre-Trib

 

[TWC]

Noah wasn't raptured. He went through the flood with the protection of the ark that God told him to build. Not only that, but Jesus was talking about his second coming being like the days of Noah. This occurs after the tribulation.

 

[revturmoil]

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:37

Pre-Trib

You are one very misled individual if you think that proves a pre-trib rapture.

Does the definition of the word elect mean anything to you? Do the Words of Jesus mean anything to you?
Or do yo just go on believing what you want regardless of the scriptural evidence?

 

[tomwebster]

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:37

Pre-Trib

rocko, why did you only quote Matthew 24: 37. You must "rightly divide." That's why you don't understand Scripture. vs 37 is part of the answer to the third question and it goes from 24:29 through 25:36. Vs 37 is even a part of a smaller sub-division from 24: 32--41:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The flood took them away, THEY DIED! It was not God that "took them away."