The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Wrangler]

Soo... When Dad was dishing ice cream out on Sunday evening, if he just bypassed me, and I asked "Why?" And he says "because I'm the Dad, that's why." That's basically your answer?

Seems like you are rooted in justice rather than grace. More to the point, you are putting yourself in the position of God. If you read Job, God does not explain himself. It does not come down to knowledge, knowing why. Rather it comes down to trust.


When all of the other gods
have come together,
the LORD God judges them
Psalm 82:1 (CEV)

 

[Renniks]

As demonstrated by the absence of a verse from Scripture.

Seriously? How many do you need?

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’"

Why are some saved and not others? Because some don't call on the Lord, others do. Is that hard to understand?

 

[Renniks]

Seems like you are rooted in justice rather than grace. More to the point, you are putting yourself in the position of God. If you read Job, God does not explain himself. It does not come down to knowledge, knowing why. Rather it comes down to trust.


When all of the other gods
have come together,
the LORD God judges them
Psalm 82:1 (CEV)

I don't need to know everything. Yes it's grace. But God doesn't leave us in the dark about how he decides.

 

[Wrangler]

Seriously? How many do you need?

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’"

Why are some saved and not others? Because some don't call on the Lord, others do. Is that hard to understand?

"Calling on the Lord" = A work we must do to be saved.

Since some don't do this work, Jesus is not saving everyone.

 

[Renniks]

"Calling on the Lord" = A work we must do to be saved.

Since some don't do this work, Jesus is not saving everyone.

The Bible doesn't claim it's A work. That's A false teaching.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Bible doesn't claim it's A work. That's A false teaching.

Neither is baptism a work.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Until now you have not told us what to you the phrase concerning Pharaoh means “raised you up” in Romans 9:17. Is that so hard a question?

It means exactly what it says.
God could have allowed another pharaoh to occupy the throne, but due to his foreknowledge he chose this one.

Exodus 9:15-16
(God speaking to Pharaoh through Moses) I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up (have spared you) for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

To raise up means "to spare". Pharaoh deserved instant death, yet God spared him for a time. Sometimes God spares the least deserving, because by doing so he is able to accomplish his greater purpose of revealing and reconciling himself to the world.
If God arbitrarily and capriciously hardened Pharoah from birth, that would be unjust. However, the accounts don't indicates this. The hardening was an act of judgment against a man who had committed much evil, and had positioned himself against God.

<<<It means exactly what it says.
God could have allowed another pharaoh to occupy the throne, but due to his foreknowledge he chose this one.>>>

Your view seems to be that foreknowledge is where God’s choosing of Pharaoh was coming from. If God had seen the future that Pharaoh would not actually not let go of Israel, until the plagues were all done, what need was there for God to harden Pharaoh? What is the sense in doing that, if at all what future God had seen of Pharaoh that He chose him is what will certainly happen?

<<<To raise up means "to spare".>>>

Yes, but better yet I think is to spare and make to stand, to serve His purpose.

<<<If God arbitrarily and capriciously hardened Pharoah from birth, that would be unjust.>>>

Yes. However, God did not do that.

<<<The hardening was an act of judgment against a man who had committed much evil, and had positioned himself against God.>>>

God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart has to do in having or rendering him to not yield and let go of Israel until all the signs and wonders that God had willed to do and show to the people had been done, and bring about and accomplish all that He intended on purpose and by His own sovereign will, power, and doing.

The hardening has nothing to do with judgment but have everything to do with His sovereign will and purpose/s.

Tong
R2137

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God shows mercy to all peoples, both to the saved and the unsaved.

You mean because even the unsaved get beer and hot dogs, and maybe even a steak now and then?
That's called common Grace and isn't what we're talking about. "Oh I was never allowed the chance for redemption, but I got french fries and sex while I was here!"

Not exactly a consolation prize.

Apparently we do have a different take of what mercy is.

Mercy (of God) is grace and is unconditional. And it may well be taken to be “common” in the sense that God shows mercy to all peoples to some extent and as He wills, both to the saved and unsaved. If you don’t recall, I have shown you the first act of mercy of God on mankind, when He did not kill Adam and Eve the instant they sinned, but gave their time on earth, even nearly a thousand years. His mercy was not only to Adam and Eve, but even to all of Adam’s posterity. And this mercy extends even to this present time. This is strong and indisputable proof that mercy (of God) isn’t conditional.

Tong
R2138

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So are you saying you expect the fallen unregenerate man, whose EVERY intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth, to submit his will to God? Well,....

You are turning from the point. The point is not about the unrepentant. It is recognizing that repenting is the work we have to do to be saved.

How so? You responded to my question saying what you expect fallen unregenerate man to do, which you say, surrender their will to God. And I argued against that, pointing out to you of the fallen nature of unregenerate man, that EVERY intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually even from his youth. It was to show you that surrendering his will to God is something that we could not expect from them. And you have not refuted that.

Now let me consider your other point here.

<<<It is recognizing that repenting is the work we have to do to be saved.>>>

While repenting unto God is a work of man, there is a problem concerning that. Repentance unto God, is something that was shown by scriptures that which fallen man seems not able to do. For repentance is not a one time act but one that is a continuing act, even to the very end of man’s earthly life.

Tong
R2139

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God heard Moses’ appeal and granted it. Nowhere in there can one find conditional mercy.

Oops, just contradicted yourself! God himself says why he granted it, but you say there's no reason. Strange!

How so? What did God granted? What God granted is Moses’ prayer to Him. Where is conditional mercy there? Nowhere. God did not kill the children of Israel, not because they have complied with any condition (for there was none) to have the mercy of God.

Tong
R2140

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I wonder why you need to know why God had chosen those He had chosen for salvation. Is it not enough that you know that God’s choices and doing are consistent with His nature, meaning that such was not unrighteous and unjust?

Soo... When Dad was dishing ice cream out on Sunday evening, if he just bypassed me, and I asked "Why?" And he says "because I'm the Dad, that's why." That's basically your answer?

No. That’s your mind, not mine.

There are things secret of God. They are secret in that God had not revealed them. What God had revealed are the things He wanted for us to know, for our good. And they are sufficient to serve God’s purpose. If for God that was sufficient, it should be to us.

Paul, concerning God said:

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Tong
R2141

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Would I dare say that God was wrong in doing that?

What is your point?

My point is contradictions do not exist in reality. Either Jeremiah was right in putting the law onto our hearts or you are right in some men do not thirst for God.

Well, I see no contradiction in that.

Tong
R2142

 

[Tong2020]

Wrangler said: ↑
Seems like you are rooted in justice rather than grace. More to the point, you are putting yourself in the position of God. If you read Job, God does not explain himself. It does not come down to knowledge, knowing why. Rather it comes down to trust.

I don't need to know everything. Yes it's grace. But God doesn't leave us in the dark about how he decides.

Did God reveal in particular how He decided to create Lucifer, how He decided to have the tree of the knowledge of good and evil accessible to Adam when He did not want him to eat of it, etc.?

Tong
R2143

 

[brightfame52]

Benefit from Christ obedience !

Benefit from Christ obedience !

All those Christ died for, that is, obedient unto death, by His obedience, all for whom He died shall live by Faith. The scripture says, that the Just shall live by Faith.

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This is important, and this will show us that by Jesus Christ death alone, it effects Faith in the lives of those He gave himself for.

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now, Paul declares in His Gospel here, that by the obedience of one [That being Christ] many shall [ a promise] be made righteous !

Now the word for righteous here is the greek word

dikaios which means:

) righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

2) innocent, faultless, guiltless

3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

a) only Christ truly

4) approved of or acceptable of God

The word is also translated Just as in Rom 1:17

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It can read, the righteous shall live by Faith !

Notice the word shall again ? Its a promise, the promise is, the righteous or the Just shall, no question about it, shall live by Faith.

This means unequivocal that all whom Christ became obedient for, by His one obedience, they shall be made to live by Faith. Because they shall be made righteous or just by His obedience, and the promise is the righteous or Just shall live by Faith..

So the death of Christ ensures Faith to all for whom He died. None He died for can remain a unbeliever, that would defeat the effects and promised blessings of His death..

And consequently, those never believing or having Faith, He never died for them 166

 

[CadyandZoe]

Forgiveness is based on the sinner truly repenting of their sins. This is because of the Mercy and Grace of God

If forgiveness is based on the penitence of the sinner, why did Jesus need to die?

 

[CadyandZoe]

God only does this for those who believe on him. God doesn't drag you to heaven by the hair. He doesn't forcibly rip out your heart and give you a new one.

He says he does.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because God is good. And being fair is good. Being unfair is not good.

Tong
R2124

He is not treating all sinners the same, is he? How is that not unfair?

 

[Tong2020]

He says he does.

What is it that you say God say He does?

Tong
R2144

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Because God is good. And being fair is good. Being unfair is not good.

He is not treating all sinners the same, is he? How is that not unfair?

That may be unfair in our minds. But could God be unfair when the concept of unfairness falls outside the goodness of God? So, needless to say, it is an error to conclude that God is unfair because of what we judge as being unfair. For there are things which we do not see and do not know concerning the ways of God. Paul said:

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

But this we know for it is revealed to us, that God is good and just and righteous. He is not unfair.

Tong
R2145

 

[Tong2020]

If forgiveness is based on the penitence of the sinner, why did Jesus need to die?

<<<...,why did Jesus need to die?>>>

Matter of God’s law and righteousness.

Besides, the forgiveness of sins is only one among a number of reasons that surrounds the death of Jesus.

Tong
R2146