The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Hello you whoever may read this,
The point of the message to love others.
If people do not believe how you do, or even accusing or just try to poke sticks and you to rile up your flesh.
Lean on God, lean on Jesus, and realize everyone has to make their own choice in this life about what they will choose to do.
Some will choose to learn, stick with what they know and not go and seek and search for more. Everyone is on their own level of understanding, and to live as Christ is to die to ourselves and let God deal with people.
Am reminded of when Jesus told his disciples to wipe the dust from their feet if people would not listen and let them live in their own way because it is their own choice. To keep moving forward. We can still love them, hope the best for them, pray for them, and that is the point of the message of what we learn from the Gospel of Christ ~ To love God with all our heart, and all our mind, and all our soul, and to love others as yourself.
How would you desire for others to treat you. Some people desire to fight, some people desire not to. Speak truth, and let that be it, and keep moving forward.
Take care, and may you be blessed.
The point of the message to love others.
If people do not believe how you do, or even accusing or just try to poke sticks and you to rile up your flesh.
Lean on God, lean on Jesus, and realize everyone has to make their own choice in this life about what they will choose to do.
Some will choose to learn, stick with what they know and not go and seek and search for more. Everyone is on their own level of understanding, and to live as Christ is to die to ourselves and let God deal with people.
Am reminded of when Jesus told his disciples to wipe the dust from their feet if people would not listen and let them live in their own way because it is their own choice. To keep moving forward. We can still love them, hope the best for them, pray for them, and that is the point of the message of what we learn from the Gospel of Christ ~ To love God with all our heart, and all our mind, and all our soul, and to love others as yourself.
How would you desire for others to treat you. Some people desire to fight, some people desire not to. Speak truth, and let that be it, and keep moving forward.
Take care, and may you be blessed.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
As you wish. I do however know that the gospel is to ‘whosoever will’...it gives permission to invite all peoples without fear of being a liar.
Key words:
““All that the Father gives Me will come to Me”
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”
“he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”
Tong
R4105
LTJMP14
Active Member
Irrelevant to what I quoted Jesus said.
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.”
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”
Tong
R4106
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Interesting that you repeat this statement bf.
The games that are played of cornering, of cat and mouse under the guise of higher knowledge is little really little more than ego stroking.
The message of God’s inclusiveness is what defines the Good News. When folk throw stumbling blocks in the path of straight forwardness; when God’s kindness for the creatures he has created is given an exclusive colouring I see a red flag.
To be the propitiation for Our sins ! 2
Then what does whole World mean in this regard ? Lets look at Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The word reconciliation here is greek word hilaskomai:
I.
to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
A.
to become propitious, be placated or appeased
B.
to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
II.
to expiate, make propitiation for
Its the verb form of the Noun hilasmos used in 1 Jn 2:2
So it applies to, the Whole World of the Seed of Abraham, The sins of the People. The People in Vs 17 has the greek definite article " τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ "
For the sins of the People, this is as definite and specific as it can get, His Propitiation, the Propitiation is for the specific sins for a specific people. In Essence that's what Jesus is saying in Matt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Which is the Seed of Abraham !
Now the sins of the People, a definite People, the Seed of Abraham, were not just ethnic jews, nor ethnic jews or believers of that time in world history, but it encompasses the Seed of Abraham from the Beginning of the World in Adam, until its consummation, it covers His Seed Completely. Abraham's Seed here Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
To make propitiation for the sins of the people, the people with the definite article, not just people in general, applies to the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.718
Which are the Elect of God, and in this He is a Faithful and Merciful High Priest in the things Pertaining to God.
Then what does whole World mean in this regard ? Lets look at Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The word reconciliation here is greek word hilaskomai:
I.
to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
A.
to become propitious, be placated or appeased
B.
to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
II.
to expiate, make propitiation for
Its the verb form of the Noun hilasmos used in 1 Jn 2:2
So it applies to, the Whole World of the Seed of Abraham, The sins of the People. The People in Vs 17 has the greek definite article " τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ "
For the sins of the People, this is as definite and specific as it can get, His Propitiation, the Propitiation is for the specific sins for a specific people. In Essence that's what Jesus is saying in Matt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Which is the Seed of Abraham !
Now the sins of the People, a definite People, the Seed of Abraham, were not just ethnic jews, nor ethnic jews or believers of that time in world history, but it encompasses the Seed of Abraham from the Beginning of the World in Adam, until its consummation, it covers His Seed Completely. Abraham's Seed here Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
To make propitiation for the sins of the people, the people with the definite article, not just people in general, applies to the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.718
Which are the Elect of God, and in this He is a Faithful and Merciful High Priest in the things Pertaining to God.
To be the propitiation for Our sins ! 3
Yes, outside of the sins for the People, the Seed of Abraham, it does not pertain to God. Now understand something, The propitiation was offered for the People, Christ's Brethren in the Family of God, The Elect Seed of Abraham; Was Not Christ Elect Isa 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Well also was His Brethren, is He not the Firstborn of many brethren Per Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Remember the Brethren are also mentioned in Heb 2:17
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Are not these the same brethren of Rom 8:29 ? Why of course they are, and they are the Church, because He is the same Firstborn as here Col 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
His Church and He is One as its stated here Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
The same brethren as in Rom 8:29, Heb 2:17.
Christ's Work as High Priest for the sins of the people was typified by the one Aaron, High Priest of God's sinful People Israel, now was Aaron by the appointment of God, a High Priest for all men in the World in General ? Did it pertain to that ? No God forbid, but only for the People of God, Covenant Israel, His Brethren, well His Antitype Christ, by the same appointment of God, is not a High Priest for all men in general, but solely for the Elect of God, New Covenant Israel, The Israel of God, the Seed of Abraham. Christ only offered Himself for those the Father had given Him in the Everlasting Covenant Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. CP
Heb 2:13
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
And it is only those He maketh Intercession for as Indicated here Jn 17:9,20
9 I pray[intercede] for them: I pray[intercede] not for the world[in general], but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
20 Neither pray[intercede] I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ [The Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16] that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Folks if God has given us a honest heart by His Grace, we can see that according to scripture, Christ's Propitiation was exclusively for the sins of the People, the Seed of Abraham, for He is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16 and He died for His Seed Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Yes, outside of the sins for the People, the Seed of Abraham, it does not pertain to God. Now understand something, The propitiation was offered for the People, Christ's Brethren in the Family of God, The Elect Seed of Abraham; Was Not Christ Elect Isa 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Well also was His Brethren, is He not the Firstborn of many brethren Per Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Remember the Brethren are also mentioned in Heb 2:17
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Are not these the same brethren of Rom 8:29 ? Why of course they are, and they are the Church, because He is the same Firstborn as here Col 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
His Church and He is One as its stated here Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
The same brethren as in Rom 8:29, Heb 2:17.
Christ's Work as High Priest for the sins of the people was typified by the one Aaron, High Priest of God's sinful People Israel, now was Aaron by the appointment of God, a High Priest for all men in the World in General ? Did it pertain to that ? No God forbid, but only for the People of God, Covenant Israel, His Brethren, well His Antitype Christ, by the same appointment of God, is not a High Priest for all men in general, but solely for the Elect of God, New Covenant Israel, The Israel of God, the Seed of Abraham. Christ only offered Himself for those the Father had given Him in the Everlasting Covenant Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. CP
Heb 2:13
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
And it is only those He maketh Intercession for as Indicated here Jn 17:9,20
9 I pray[intercede] for them: I pray[intercede] not for the world[in general], but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
20 Neither pray[intercede] I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ [The Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16] that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Folks if God has given us a honest heart by His Grace, we can see that according to scripture, Christ's Propitiation was exclusively for the sins of the People, the Seed of Abraham, for He is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16 and He died for His Seed Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Believers do not face the white throne or judgement
That "spiritual" body is flesh and eternal at that point
No scripture states such- what scripture do you claim supports this?
So... is God not powerful enough to save all men or... because if your interpretation is correct, and god wills all men to be saved but all are not saved... does that mean he's just not powerful enough to save us or keep us from 'perishing'?
And if Christ was the ransom for ALL men... everyone will be in heaven, right? The WHOLE world?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
If men refuse the life given them it will not be forced on them....so it’s not about God not being powerful enough, it’s about God respecting their choice.
He died for the Seed of Abraham, not all mankind !
When Christ was made of a Woman and Under the Law as Per Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.724
The scripture is pretty clear in fact, incontrovertible, whom it was for , not all mankind without exception but for the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The Seed of Abraham is not all mankind, but a Chosen People from amongst mankind in general. Ps 105:6
O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Was not Christ the Seed of Abraham ? Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
This also means that it was the Seed of Abraham that Adam exclusively represented in the beginning. It was that Seed that fell in Adam and that Seed which Christ came to recover.
The rest of mankind belongs to the seed of the serpent, whom Christ did not come to seek and to save !
When Christ was made of a Woman and Under the Law as Per Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.724
The scripture is pretty clear in fact, incontrovertible, whom it was for , not all mankind without exception but for the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The Seed of Abraham is not all mankind, but a Chosen People from amongst mankind in general. Ps 105:6
O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Was not Christ the Seed of Abraham ? Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
This also means that it was the Seed of Abraham that Adam exclusively represented in the beginning. It was that Seed that fell in Adam and that Seed which Christ came to recover.
The rest of mankind belongs to the seed of the serpent, whom Christ did not come to seek and to save !
You are right, if all arent saved whom He wills to be saved, then someone else will overcame His will ! God forbid !
I don’t agree that it’s about God respecting man’s choice. I find that simply as a cheap excuse or argument to explain away God’s sovereignty over His creation, even His wisdom and power. For such argument dictates that one’s salvation depends on the man, if not entirely by his will, more than God’s. And this simply runs contrary to the truth that one’s salvation is of God, by God, and by grace, and is according to the counsel of His will.
Tong
R4118
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So you endorse that men can refuse Gods will, thats a shame. Thats saying mans will is greater than Gods !
Obviously men can refuse God's will since its God's will that none should perish but that's clearly not what is going to happen.
I wouldn't say man's will is greater just that God allows us freedom to act ( combined with accepting the responsibility and repercussion of those choices)
I think besides that, what @quietthinker wants to say is that God honors man’s will, to be saved or not be saved. And that, it seems that for him, not honoring man’s will regarding that, renders God as a sinner Himself. That’s simply some ridiculous thought about God, if not a very low regard of who God is.
Tong
R4119
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