The Israelites and the Law

[Reddsta]

someone said that the Sacrifices and Offerings will never be reinstituted.

Yeh Keras…it was the writer of Hebrews (Paul?) quoting king David (Psalms 40)…who was speaking what he knew to be God’s ultimate desire…First he said…“Multiple burnt-offerings and sin-offerings cannot satisfy your justice” [even though the law required them to be offered.] And then He [Yahshua] said, “God, I will be the One to go and do your will.” So by being the sacrifice that removes sin, he abolishes [takes away the first order of] animal sacrifices and replaces that entire system with the new covenant [establishing the second and better order.] By God’s will we have been purified and made holy once and for all…through the sacrifice of the body of Yahshua, the Messiah!

The problem that always existed with ritually offering the same sacrifices again and again…those are sacrifices that can never take away sin or sin’s guilt. However when this Royal Priest had offered the one supreme sacrifice for sin for all time He sat down on a throne at the right hand of God. And by His one perfect sacrifice He made us perfectly holy and complete for all time!

The Holy Spirit confirms this to us by this Scripture…for the Lord says…“Afterwards, I will give them this covenant…I will embed my laws into their hearts and fasten my Word to their thoughts.” And then he says, “I will not ever again remember their sins and lawless deeds!”

So Keras…if our sins have been forgiven and forgotten, why would we ever need to offer another sacrifice for sin?

The simple reality that you don’t seem to understand Keras is this…the greater assumes within it the lesser and the lesser is included in the greater. I am saying that the lesser exists as a “type and shadow” of the greater until the greater comes…when the greater comes…the lesser is understood in the context of the greater.

So, to go back to the lesser when the greater exists is silly. It is failing to understand this basic principle.

For example…the law…the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments, and the Book of the Law, the commandments contained in ordinances. They were the clearest indication of the mind of God available at a certain point in time. But when the One came…who is the living God Himself…to personally disclose the mind of God as was referenced in the Ten Commandments and the law, He ushered in the thing that provides context for the law. So we might now understand not just what was said, but why it was said.

Then, the invitation to belong into the Corpus Christi…the Body of Christ…which is the full expression…not of the law…but of the mind of God...of which the law was as a pendant that hangs from a necklace. In that regard, then, we have been given the greater and the law is fulfilled. The lesser is shown in its greater context when the greater comes.

Keras there is no purpose for this convoluted delusion of twisted teachings you put out. There is no need for animal sacrifices...a temple or any of that.

Having said that...if you do see these things come to fruition...rest assured it is the work of Satan to fool those with the veil yet unlifted in Christ.

Redd...:)

 

[Keraz]

Keras there is no purpose for this convoluted delusion of twisted teachings you put out. There is no need for animal sacrifices...a temple or any of that.

I quoted scriptures, they plainly say that in a new Temple people will again make sacrifices and offerings to God.
God wanted them before and while Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our personal sins, there remains sin and the need for propitiation, also for thank offerings. God does not change.

Having said that...if you do see these things come to fruition...rest assured it is the work of Satan to fool those with the veil yet unlifted in Christ.

Another rude and nasty accusation against me.
There are 2 Bible verses you must explain; Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4. -
The leader [of the peoples - like Rome] makes an agreement for one 'week' [7 years] He breaks it after half has passed; [3 1/2 years]
He then stops the sacrifices and offerings to God, in Gods Temple and sitting in the Temple, declares himself to be God.
Then; over the next 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days; the Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls will take place, culminating with the Seventh Bowl - Armageddon. Revelation 16:16, and the glorious Return of Jesus.

These things have not yet happened. In your confused delusions; are you saying they never will?

 

[ewq1938]

I quoted scriptures, they plainly say that in a new Temple people will again make sacrifices and offerings to God.
God wanted them before and while Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our personal sins, there remains sin and the need for propitiation, also for thank offerings. God does not change.

God changes things though such as how sins are dealt with. Christ was the last sin sacrifice yet you are claiming that isn't true, and animal sacrifices will return. That is false.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Keraz]

God changes things though such as how sins are dealt with. Christ was the last sin sacrifice yet you are claiming that isn't true, and animal sacrifices will return. That is false.

So; your way of dealing with scriptures that prove there will againare proved wrong. be sacrifices and offerings, is to just ignore them?
Here they are again:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The Lords faithful people will again praise Him in a new Temple and will make thanksgiving offerings and sacrifices for inadvertent sins to Him. Ezekiel 45:20

 

[RedFan]

Fun watching you guys go at it!

It is important to distinguish between sin offerings and other kinds of offerings. @Keraz has a point - once he deletes the half of his OT quotes that do not reference sin offerings. And that point is: these OT verses are timeless and as yet unfulfilled prophesies despite the sacrifice of Christ. (He still needs to make that case, but I suspect he can. I'll wait for it.)

 

[Keraz]

Fun watching you guys go at it!

It is important to distinguish between sin offerings and other kinds of offerings. @Keraz has a point - once he deletes the half of his OT quotes that do not reference sin offerings. And that point is: these OT verses are timeless and as yet unfulfilled prophesies despite the sacrifice of Christ. (He still needs to make that case, but I suspect he can. I'll wait for it.)

The Prophecies in Ezekiel 40 to 48, that carefully describe what Gods peoples must do when they are living in all of the holy Land, are the basis for the proof of a new Temple and sacrifices and offerings will be made in it.
BEFORE Jesus Returns and after; during the Millennium; Zephaniah 14:16-21

Of course people who are confused and deceived by false ideas like; being raptured outta here, and we are in the Millennium now, have difficulty with truths like this, as they read the Bible only to fit with their preconceived beliefs.

 

[ewq1938]

So; your way of dealing with scriptures that prove there will againare proved wrong. be sacrifices and offerings, is to just ignore them?
Here they are again:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The Lords faithful people will again praise Him in a new Temple and will make thanksgiving offerings and sacrifices for inadvertent sins to Him. Ezekiel 45:20

Those are ineffective against NT scripture.


Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

So your way of dealing with scriptures that prove there will not be sin sacrifices and offerings again is to just ignore them?

 

[Keraz]

Those are ineffective against NT scripture.

Basically you are saying the Old Testament is worthless.
You say it because it contradicts your beliefs. Not a good thing, I'm sure.
Anyway, you also reject; or ignore to your discredit, 2 Thess 2:4, which clearly says there will be a new Temple, one that a man will desecrate and obviously; stop the regular rituals and services.

Hebrews 10:8-12 tells us how it is during this Church age. It will not be permanent, as the OT prophets inform us.

 

[RedFan]

The Prophecies in Ezekiel 40 to 48, that carefully describe what Gods peoples must do when they are living in all of the holy Land, are the basis for the proof of a new Temple and sacrifices and offerings will be made in it.
BEFORE Jesus Returns and after; during the Millennium; Zephaniah 14:16-21

Of course people who are confused and deceived by false ideas like; being raptured outta here, and we are in the Millennium now, have difficulty with truths like this, as they read the Bible only to fit with their preconceived beliefs.

Almost there, @Keraz ! Now dig into the "once and for all" sacrifice on Calvary described in the NT and square it with the continued sin offerings (other types don't matter) you've plucked from the OT. Tell us what their point is, post-Calvary.

 

[Reddsta]

I quoted scriptures, they plainly say that in a new Temple people will again make sacrifices and offerings to God.

Well Keras…the dragon can quote scripture its one of his most effective schemes in his arrogance he did so in the temptations of our Lord Yahshua…in Matthew 4. 3 times it is recorded that he said “It is written” to no avail…why? He is a liar…the one time the Lord spoke…”It is written” the devil departed.

You quoted scriptures well enough…however your quotes have both the voice and authority of the dragon…the only reason I say anything to you at all is to provide some truth against the back drop of your fallacy Keras…for those who may read you.

I'll deal with your deception subsequently...

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

God wanted them before and while Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our personal sins, there remains sin and the need for propitiation, also for thank offerings. God does not change.

“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” (1Jn 1:5-10 NASB)

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1Co 15:20-22 NASB)

Both 1st John 1 and 1st Corinthians 15 speak to those who are under “the blood of the Lamb of God” as “spiritually alive in Christ...having obtained the eternal life...of Christ” having obtained eternal life Keras…”forgiven and cleansed from “ALL” sin and unrighteousness.” For these...there is no longer require a sacrifice for sin Keras.

God does not change…nor does He lie. This is because He sees everything including the end of all matters from before He creates them.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

God wanted them before and while Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our personal sins, there remains sin and the need for propitiation, also for thank offerings. God does not change.

Animal sacrifices and human hand built temples were but a temporary part of His vision…David wrote in Psalms 40:6 “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.”

It is clear to me Keras that you do not agree with scripture that plainly points out that the “Old Covenant” was fulfilled…completed in Christ Yahshua…who then brought forth a “New Covenant” a better covenant that utterly replaced the first. Paul says “in Christ…old things pass away.”

The writer of Hebrews many times writes things like this…this was likely written to the “Jewish” community in Rome…they were well acquainted with animal sacrifice and temple worship.

“We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.”

Meaning it is complete Keras.

“For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things…

Earthly things are but mere shadows of the heavenly and eternal things Keras.

“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.”

Do not attempt to take people back to your dark fantasy of an incomplete covenant Keras.

“When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.”

“HE” the Lord Yahshua Christ brought a new covenant…”HE” the Lord Yahshua Christ made the first “old” covenant “obsolete” and set to “disappear” Keras…disappear. That is a different word than “reappear” Keras.

“The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time.”

The temple and its sacrifices are a symbol for the time in which they were employed…pointing to something greater...and when it is removed…like it now is…the Holy Spirit will disclose the way into the “Holy Place” Keras. You obviously have not found it.

“But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Only the “spiritually blind” cannot see this…this "New Temple of the New Covenant" is not of this creation…it did not arise through the effectual use of the blood of bulls and goats…but through the blood of the Lamb of God once for all…that is for all…its outside of creation Keras…you and your lies try to paint it back into creation…that is the voice of the dragon.

Redd..:)

 

[Reddsta]

God wanted them before and while Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our personal sins, there remains sin and the need for propitiation, also for thank offerings. God does not change.

“For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”

The new covenant in His blood…covers the sin and transgressions that were committed under the first covenant because the blood of bulls and goat could not do it then…now…nor ever…Keras.

“For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

A holy place made with hands Keras is but a copy of the “true one”…today the Holy Place is in the presence of the Spirit of God Himself…and you want to drag humans out of the Holy Place back into a failed covenant...what is that but evil?...Keras

“So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”

His blood removed the sin, its stain and the guilt that comes with it…unto salvation for those who trust in His “Word”…Keras

That’s enough about blood sacrifice and the temple Keras…Hebrews 8-9 are the reference…I showed you 10 in my initial post to you.

You see what you see in the completed fulfilled old covenant Keras...and patently reject that which supersedes it unto the rejection of the Christ.

I am not saying that it does not say...what you say it says...What I am showing is that your twisted interpretations Keras…from the faulty covenant that has “become old, obsolete, and has disappeared” are in utter rejection of the “New…better Covenant” in the blood of the Lamb. This puts you in some “desolate” company sir.

I strongly suggest that you pay close attention to what I have posted here and turn from this rejection of the only sacrifice that can remove your sin Keras…or you like Israel of antiquity…will have no advocate before almighty God.

Redd...:)

 

[Keraz]

I strongly suggest that you pay close attention to what I have posted here and turn from this rejection of the only sacrifice that can remove your sin Keras…or you like Israel of antiquity…will have no advocate before almighty God.

Had a nice rave?
If you read your Bible - ALL of it, you might understand my case better,
For example, in Ezekiel 45:20 it says the sacrifices are for inadvertent sins and for the simple people.

You are another who insists that we are in the New Covenant now, despite the fact that God's peoples are still scattered around the world and the results of it as described in Hebrews 8:10-12 remain unfulfilled.

 

[ewq1938]

Basically you are saying the Old Testament is worthless.

And does that mean you think the New Testament is worthless because you reject what Hebrews says about no more sin sacrifices?

 

[Reddsta]

Had a nice rave?

Well not really Keras...personally I am having difficulty in accepting [empathy] that you just disregard the source from which you quote...as though you can pick and choose to your souls desire...you are in trouble man...no offence...I mean you are in trouble...you believe a lie. To make it worse you push it as truth.

If you read your Bible - ALL of it, you might understand my case better,
For example, in Ezekiel 45:20 it says the sacrifices are for inadvertent sins and for the simple people.

I have read the bible...all of it...some parts more than others Keras...and I have tried to understand your case better...really for what it's worth?

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "In the first month, on the first of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. "The priest shall take some of the blood from the sin offering and put it on the door posts of the house, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar and on the posts of the gate of the inner court. "Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house. "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. "On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering." (Eze 45:18-22 NASB)

I see it Keras...I see it...I see what it says friend. I believe it...it was the mind of God in as much as was revealed up to that time for those people...it is truth and the instruction of God to Israel...it was required...I believe it...if it is up to you...do not doubt me Keras.

You should try to understand that the entire point for all "blood sacrifice" prior to the "Lamb of God" was to convince and direct Israel to the fulfillment of God's covenant with Abraham...1. a great nation and 2. Christ....which was ratified centuries prior to the Law of Moses and the Prophets as given to an Israel...that did not yet exist.

All you need to do is relax Keras...seriously...understand that the God accepted sacrifice...of the Lord Yahshua Christ...as the one and only "Lamb of God" whose shed blood...atoned for ALL sin and unrighteousness...ALL. Yours and mine friend...relax....the Father is at rest as are His sons.

To continue with the blood of bulls and goats in the light of a "greater" sacrifice is putting the "lesser" over the "greater" which is totally silly...the "lesser" is to point to the "greater"...when the "greater" arrives...the "lesser" is subsumed in the "greater." The way you put it...it is like turning the wine into water...Keras.

I do not doubt your love for God Keras...listen to me...search these things out as you have the "Old Obsolete, fulfilled school master" which points us to a "greater reality in the eternal Christ." Its there for you friend...its there for all of us. Labor until Christ is formed in you Keras...Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Tatwo...:)

 

[Keraz]

And does that mean you think the New Testament is worthless because you reject what Hebrews says about no more sin sacrifices?

I reject no scriptures.
What Hebrews 10:11-14 is saying; We Christians do not need to make sacrifices in this Christian age, as Jesus did it for us.
Confirmed by Hosea 3:4-5 The Israelites, [the righteous, Jesus believing people of God] will live for a long time without a King or leader, without sacrifice or the sacred Temple items.
AFTER THAT: they will again seek the Lord their God and David [David's descendant; Jesus] their King......

The Prophesies are clear; We are not required to do any of the Temple duties now. Bu many Prophesies make it clear, we will have to in the future.

 

[Keraz]

..I mean you are in trouble...you believe a lie.

You know what; You are the one who believes lies, you directly reject Prophesies like Isaiah 56:6-7, where we are told that foreigners who give their allegiance to the Lord, will make acceptable offerings and sacrifices in the Lords House of prayer.

I do not doubt your love for God Keras...listen to me...search these things out as you have the "Old Obsolete, fulfilled school master" which points us to a "greater reality in the eternal Christ."

Jesus is my saviour. He gave me the task of promoting the Prophetic Word. That I get very little agreement, is just to be expected, as the ancient Prophets were vilified and sometimes killed.
Why is that? Because God has hidden these things from the wise and educated people. Matthew 11:25

Ezekiel 40 to 48 is unfulfilled Prophecy for God faithful peoples when they are living in all of the holy Land. It simply does not relate to or fit with ancient Israel.
Many Prophesies describe the gathering and travel to the holy Land, soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it. It will happen; it is our destiny.

 

[ewq1938]

I reject no scriptures.
What Hebrews 10:11-14 is saying; We Christians do not need to make sacrifices in this Christian age, as Jesus did it for us.
Confirmed by Hosea 3:4-5 The Israelites, [the righteous, Jesus believing people of God] will live for a long time without a King or leader, without sacrifice or the sacred Temple items.
AFTER THAT: they will again seek the Lord their God and David [David's descendant; Jesus] their King......

The Prophesies are clear; We are not required to do any of the Temple duties now. Bu many Prophesies make it clear, we will have to in the future.

But no sin sacrifices or offerings will be. Anything related to sin was fulfilled by the death of Jesus and that is forever not just for a temporary period of time.

 

[Keraz]

But no sin sacrifices or offerings will be. Anything related to sin was fulfilled by the death of Jesus and that is forever not just for a temporary period of time.

In principle, that is correct and I agree with it.
Ezekiel 45:20 says why some sacrifices still need to happen.

Is it possible for you and everyone, to visualize how different the world is going to be after the Lords Day of fiery wrath?
Revelation shows how the peoples will be in two groups; those who love the Lord and follow Jesus and those ungodly peoples who will follow the 'beast' and take his mark.
We Christians will travel to and gather into all of the holy Land, where we will be His witnesses and the Light to the nations. Ezekiel 39:23
All the rest of the worlds peoples will remain in their homelands, in 10 world regions. Daniel 7:23-24, Rev 17:12

After things settle down and we Christians become prosperous, a man called Gog will be motivated to gather a vast army and come down from the far North to spoil and loot. God will honour the Covenant He will make with us and Gog and his army will be wiped out. Joel 2:20
Continued in Revelation and by all the Prophets.