The Great Danger Of Being Out Of Church

[marksman]

Find a Church, that preaches the Bible and make it your Church home.

What does a church that ' preaches the bible' preach? ;)

 

[SaberTruth]

Know what else people keep getting mixed up (or deliberately equivocating on)? "Preaching" the gospel and "preaching" to the saved. ALL of us are to do the former but only some should do the latter, which in NT terms isn't "preaching" but "teaching". And if we say it's "a message the Lord has laid on their heart", it's neither--- it's prophecy, which anyone so gifted can proclaim. We have to pin people down on their terms.

 

[marksman]

Everyone who stays out of Church, will end up being deceived by every wind of doctrine

Rather a sweeping and unsubstantiated generalisation. Do you have any evidence for it?

 

[bigape]

Rather a sweeping and unsubstantiated generalisation. Do you have any evidence for it?

Just God’s Word..........
Ephesians 4:11-14
V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
V.13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
V.14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

God gave the Church pastors, to perfect the saints(us), and to get us ready for the work of the ministry.

And our goal, is to grow up into strong and mature Christians.

So that we will stop being spiritual children, who will be easily fooled by every false teaching that comes down the road(or the internet).
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The Church's job, is to help Christians grow up, so that will be safe from deception and even though there are a lot of BAD churches, does not mean we should give up.

 

[SaberTruth]

To repeat: "out of church" only means "out of the FAKE church", NOT "out of fellowship". Those scriptures all mean we get together-- they don't say where, when, how, or by whom. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered" and "in spirit and truth"; there is NOTHING in the NT telling Christians to have sacred buildings or furniture, liturgies, professional religious elite, a chain of command, or any other such "not so among you". Those who practice these things are like the "foolish Galatians" or the Nicolaitans who "lord over".

"... THAT WE NO MORE BE CHILDREN..." who sit like baby birds with open mouths, waiting for some professional to dump in whatever he wants. Grow up!

 

[bigape]

To repeat: "out of church" only means "out of the FAKE church", NOT "out of fellowship". Those scriptures all mean we get together-- they don't say where, when, how, or by whom. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered" and "in spirit and truth"; there is NOTHING in the NT telling Christians to have sacred buildings or furniture, liturgies, professional religious elite, a chain of command, or any other such "not so among you". Those who practice these things are like the "foolish Galatians" or the Nicolaitans who "lord over".

"... THAT WE NO MORE BE CHILDREN..." who sit like baby birds with open mouths, waiting for some professional to dump in whatever he wants. Grow up!

Here we have a classic example........
Ephesians 4:14
“.............by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

Don’t fall for lies like this, you will regret it.

 

[SaberTruth]

Here we have a classic example........
Ephesians 4:14
“.............by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

Don’t fall for lies like this, you will regret it.

You already have. Wake up!

 

[marksman]

Just God’s Word..........
Ephesians 4:11-14
V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
V.13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
V.14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

God gave the Church pastors, to perfect the saints(us), and to get us ready for the work of the ministry.And our goal, is to grow up into strong and mature Christians. So that we will stop being spiritual children, who will be easily fooled by every false teaching that comes down the road(or the internet).
--------------------------------------------------
The Church's job, is to help Christians grow up, so that will be safe from deception and even though there are a lot of BAD churches, does not mean we should give up.

I have just realised something. The reason, I believe that the church is full of false teachers and why people are kept spiritual children is the fact that they quote verses of scripture but they ignore what it says because it doesn't support their traditions. This one is a classic example.

He says that God gave the church pastors to help christians grow up.....it says no such thing.

The verse that he quoted says that he gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. This is a fair indication that preachers who ignore the other four ministries are false teachers. If Jesus said we needed five ministries, it is false to say that we don't. So every church that has a pastor and ignores the other four ministries is leading the sheep astray.

I guess these false pastors don't want to share the glory of being the top dog.

To repeat: "out of church" only means "out of the FAKE church", NOT "out of fellowship". Those scriptures all mean we get together-- they don't say where, when, how, or by whom. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered" and "in spirit and truth"; there is NOTHING in the NT telling Christians to have sacred buildings or furniture, liturgies, professional religious elite, a chain of command, or any other such "not so among you". Those who practice these things are like the "foolish Galatians" or the Nicolaitans who "lord over".

"... THAT WE NO MORE BE CHILDREN..." who sit like baby birds with open mouths, waiting for some professional to dump in whatever he wants. Grow up!

So true Saber Truth. So true. He is doing what most people do when they have a territory to protect. They approach the scriptures with a particular end in mind and then selectively pick those scriptures that give some credence to their traditions. often they just quote one verse of scripture and then claim they are a bible believing church, which is ridiculous as no so called bible believing church makes a doctrine out of one verse of scripture.

Because they are deceived by satan, they can't see the wood for the trees and they believe that tradition is truth, even if it disagrees with scripture. They make the scripture support their traditions by convoluted argument and hypothesis.

 

[marksman]

[

quote name='aspen' timestamp='1289259983' post='91256']
So, can we agree that going to church has more benefits than not going? Peace

I never go to church because I am the church so I can't go to myself.

 

[aspen]

I love going to church - I try to go to daily Mass when I have time.

 

[marksman]

But part of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word, is finding a “good Bible believing Church”, that preaches the Gospel.

Does a bible believing church teach that you should have a quiet time every morning? If so where does the bible say that you should?

 

[bigape]

Hi marksman

You ask.......

“Does a bible believing church teach that you should have a quiet time every morning? If so where does the bible say that you should?“

That’s kind of a good question, although it comes out of left field.

Yes; If you attend, a good Church who’s pastor regularly preaches and teaches from God’s Word, over time, as you grow Spiritually, you will learn the importance of a devotional life.

The reason it comes over time, as you grow, is for two reasons:
➀ The Bible doesn’t directly command believers to have a daily devotional time:
(But every Godly person in the Bible had one, so you get the message:)
➁ The reason the Bible nor the pastor can dictate this for you, is because it is different for every believer.
(Some believers have it in the morning, some at night, some both:)
(Some believers read through the Bible every year, while others don’t:)
-I may have started off that way, but now it takes me longer.-
etc. etc. etc.

 

[Doppleganger]

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there Am I in the midst of them.”
Bullinger
20. two or three. It was believed that “where two are assembled to study the Law, the Shechinah was with them”.

 

[marksman]

The reason it comes over time, as you grow, is for two reasons:
➀ The Bible doesn’t directly command believers to have a daily devotional time:
(But every Godly person in the Bible had one, so you get the message:)

If you are a bible believing church, and the bible doesn't command people to have a daily quiet time, but your church does, how can you be a bible believing church?

You will have to point me to all the godly people in the bible who had quiet times as I can't find them.

 

[bigape]

Hello marksman

You said........

"If you are a bible believing church, and the bible doesn't command people to have a daily quiet time, but your church does, how can you be a bible believing church?"

Your right. Of course I have never heard of a Church "commanding" anybody to have a daily quiet time.
-----------------------------------------
You also said.......

"You will have to point me to all the godly people in the bible who had quiet times as I can't find them."

Okey, here are two of my favorite examples........
John 4:32-34
V.32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
V.33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him [ought] to eat?
V.34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

In most cases, our devotional time is something that we have to set aside as a special time, having to put other things aside for.
Well here, Jesus has just finished his encounter with the woman at the well and the disciples get back with some food, but the Lord isn’t hungry. He explains that “His meat is to do the will of him that sent Him”.(It works for me.)

Acts 20:13-14
V.13 ¶ And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.
V.14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.

And here, the Apostle Paul, has just finished preaching all night long, but instead of taking the ship to the next town with the rest of his party, he decides to walk there;
(Giving him an opportunity to spend some time along with the Lord.)
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And here are just a “few” more examples, I found.....
Psalms 55:17
“Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.”

Acts 10:9
“On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:”

Matthew 6:6
“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”

Mark 1:35
“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.”

Daniel 6:10
“Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.”

Mark 6:46
“And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.”

Psalms 5:3
“My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct [my prayer] unto thee, and will look up.”

Psalms 63:5-6
V.5 My soul shall be satisfied as [with] marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise [thee] with joyful lips:
V.6 When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.

Luke 4:42
“And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them.”

 

[marksman]

John 4:32-34 V.32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. V.33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him [ought] to eat? V.34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

For the life of me I cannot see what this has to do with having a quiet time regardless of your explanation.

Acts 20:13-14 V.13 ¶ And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot. V.14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.
And here, the Apostle Paul, has just finished preaching all night long, but instead of taking the ship to the next town with the rest of his party, he decides to walk there; (Giving him an opportunity to spend some time along with the Lord.)

As your comment is speculation, even though it may be true, it doesn't convince me we are talking about a daily quiet time here.

Psalm 55:17, Daniel 6:10, Psalm 5:3, Psalm 63: 5-6, I don't live under the old covenant and this wasn't written to the church.

Acts 10:9 “On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:”

I can't see any instructioon about a quiet time here.

Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”

This is about how you pray, not a daily quiet time.

Mark 1:35 “And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.”

I can't see a verse that speaks of Jesus getting up in the morning to pray is instructing us to have a quiet time. If that was its intent, I think it would have said after "a great while before day" as was his usual custom.

Mark 6:46 “And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.”

I can depart to somewhere to pray but that doesn't mean I have a daily quiet time.

Luke 4:42 “And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them.”

There is no mention of prayer here so I have to assume that it is an asssumption on your part. he could have just been wanting to get away from the crowd.

 

[bigape]

Hello marksman

You said........

“For the life of me I cannot see what this has to do with having a quiet time regardless of your explanation.”

Well, I don’t owe you an explanation, and you have already said that you wouldn’t accept it anyway, but here it is.

Those of us who do, practice daily devotions, find that it sustains us, just as eating does.
It’s not that I fast, but these times spent with the Lord, fill me up, Spiritually.
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Next you said..........

“As your comment is speculation, even though it may be true, it doesn't convince me we are talking about a daily quiet time here.”

That is your loss. One of the reasons, Churches don’t command people to take the time to do this, is because it has to be something that we want to do.

Paul took this time to be alone, because it was something that he needed.
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You continued........

“I don't live under the old covenant and this wasn't written to the church.”

Well neither do I, but God’s Word(both Testaments), is God’s mind; And we can find the secrets of drawing neigh to the LORD, by studying it.
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You also said........

“I can't see any instructioon about a quiet time here.”

Here Peter, went up on the roof, by himself to pray. This is a quiet time.
--------------------------------------------------
Next........

“This is about how you pray, not a daily quiet time.”

How many people, can fit in your closet?
A big part of “quiet time”, is finding someplace to be alone.
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“I can't see a verse that speaks of Jesus getting up in the morning to pray is instructing us to have a quiet time. If that was its intent, I think it would have said after "a great while before day" as was his usual custom.”

As I said previously...........
“The Bible doesn’t directly command believers to have a daily devotional time:
(But every Godly person in the Bible had one, so you get the message:)”

Being led to have a quiet time with the Lord, only comes, as a believer draws neigh to the LORD.
Until you do this, you won’t see the value of it.

 

[John1]

BigApe

Those of us who do, practice daily devotions, find that it sustains us, just as eating does.
It’s not that I fast, but these times spent with the Lord, fill me up, Spiritually.

Amen

The NewGuy

 

[marksman]

Hello marksman

You said........Well, I don’t owe you an explanation, and you have already said that you wouldn’t accept it anyway, but here it is.

Those of us who do, practice daily devotions, find that it sustains us, just as eating does.
It’s not that I fast, but these times spent with the Lord, fill me up, Spiritually.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said..........That is your loss. One of the reasons, Churches don’t command people to take the time to do this, is because it has to be something that we want to do. Paul took this time to be alone, because it was something that he needed.
--------------------------------------------------
You continued........Well neither do I, but God’s Word(both Testaments), is God’s mind; And we can find the secrets of drawing neigh to the LORD, by studying it.
--------------------------------------------------
You also said........Here Peter, went up on the roof, by himself to pray. This is a quiet time.
--------------------------------------------------
Next........Howw many people, can fit in your closet?
A big part of “quiet time”, is finding someplace to be alone.
--------------------------------------------------

As I said previously...........“The Bible doesn’t directly command believers to have a daily devotional time:
(But every Godly person in the Bible had one, so you get the message:)”

Being led to have a quiet time with the Lord, only comes, as a believer draws neigh to the LORD.
Until you do this, you won’t see the value of it.

All very nice but nothing that shows the scripture teaches about a daily quiet time. In fact it says to pray without ceasing.

 

[pgfinest2002]

Hello again SaberTruth

There’s the “flaw”, in your ointment.
You said........


Your flaw, is a rejection of authority. God’s authority.

You are right, that God’s people(all of us), have a responsibility to reject preachers, that don’t rightly divide the Word of truth.
This is the authority a Church body has, and they should exercise it, when needed.

You ask, “who is to preach the gospel?” Even though every believer is to minister to one another and the world, but preaching, is done by preachers.
And preachers are called of God.........
Ephesians 4:11-14
V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
V.13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
V.14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Everyone who stays out of Church, will end up being deceived by every wind of doctrine.
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Your feelings toward Church & preachers, is right out of the Bible.......
2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Preachers are to keep “preaching” the word of God; Even though in the last days(TODAY), people will be rejecting “preaching” and want “teachers”.

The difference between preaching and teaching, is a preacher proclaimed the truth of God’s Word, while a teacher discusses the Bible.

Too many people, who run into a bad man-made pastor or a bad Church, just give up and fall out of Church all together.

Or, they don’t like it when the man of God preaches against sin and rather than repenting and getting right with God, they simply fall out or find another “church”, that doesn’t preach against sin.

This....is the great falling away.

Bigape,
I like the passages you use to make your point about church attendance. You make a very good case.