The Gospel!! What is it?

[marks]

Try not to get too fixated on one verse. What happened to baptism in Luke 24:47; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 3:19; 4:4; 5:14; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18? The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Real "Fix" was Jesus' death and resurrection. Period. We cannot add anything, to that, no matter what we think. If we believe, we receive, with or without water.

We can become set on certain verses, but we really need to be careful which they are. If we insist our doctrine is what is found in the narrative passages of what they did then, and we don't allow ourselves to be corrected by the teaching passages which explain these things to us, we can end up on error.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If brother Mark is saying that in his Dispensationalism the Law of Moses is still at work for the Israeli people, I would strongly dispute that.

That's way too simplistic to communicate what I think.

But suffice to say, God will keep His promises to Israel. God will give them the blessings of their covenant, which was fulfilled for them by Jesus, when they, as a nation, come to faith in Jesus when He returns in glory.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

But we have to search the scriptures to find the truth if it is there we cannot let out thinking control the scriptural definition we tried that on baptism and look what that has caused.

I haven't been talking about "baptism." I don't know how that figures into what I was saying? And I certainly don't wish to control what Scripture means by my own thinking.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's way too simplistic to communicate what I think.

But suffice to say, God will keep His promises to Israel. God will give them the blessings of their covenant, which was fulfilled for them by Jesus, when they, as a nation, come to faith in Jesus when He returns in glory.

Much love!

I agree with Dispensationalists who feel that God promised special blessings for the nation Israel. I just don't believe that this involves, in any way, a restoration of the requirements of the Law of Moses. Indications exist in biblical prophecy that seem to suggest this to some people. And I recognize that they are there.

I just don't agree that they indicate there will be a literal restoration of the Law of Moses in any way, shape, or form. OT figures purely prefigure NT truth, as it has been fulfilled in Christ. Using OT figures in the OT era was necessary precisely because these prophecies were being spoken in the OT era. It would be quite inappropriate to speak too much about the passage of the Old Covenant while that Covenant was still in play.

But the individuality of Israel as a nation is just as important as an individual family member is to our family. Every individual person in our family matters. Every individual nation among those called to be "nations of God" matter, whether it is the Jewish nation we are speaking of or Christian nations. All matter to God who has called them to represent Him.

Those nations that have fallen away from their calling, whether Israel or Christian nations, can be restored. The Gospel of Christ is not just for an outreach to new peoples, but also for forgiveness for those nations that have failed, assuming they are correctable.

 

[Godslittleservant]

I did let the bible tell me

John the baptist told me
Jesus told me
Paul told me

what more do i need?

Acts 19 does not prove your point. Stop trying to go to a few select passages and look at scripture as a whole

again, I was baptized into Christ. Only God can do that. No one else can

if you think they can, That is blasphemy..

No it is your refusal to accept the passages that deal with baptism. You don't want to deal with them cause it contradicts your view but that does not nullify what God has recorded. Either Paul was speaking the truth about the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ or he was lying we have to determine which it was not just ignore it.

So you must tell me where I got it wrong.

 

[Godslittleservant]

I haven't been talking about "baptism." I don't know how that figures into what I was saying? And I certainly don't wish to control what Scripture means by my own thinking.

I did not mean to insinuate that you were talking about baptism I just used it as an example of how our thinking lets us control our view

 

[Randy Kluth]

I did not mean to insinuate that you were talking about baptism I just used it as an example of how our thinking lets us control our view

I do not place my own religious tradition or denominational positions above Scriptural authority. My own church has, I think, kept me out of its mainstream functioning to prevent me from stating my more controversial positions.

Nor do I take pride in having "different positions." My wish is for Christian doctrinal unity, which helps to keep us in spiritual unity. However, we should all be aware that there are malign influences that threaten our being successful in the Kingdom of God. We simply have to confront challenges that wish to obscure truths that can help us.

 

[Robert Pate]

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

My question is what is the gospel that they have preached to us?
Who is the we?
Is Peter and Paul preaching the same gospel or different gospels?
Can this gospel be found in the bible?
Book Chapter and verse?

I have been studying the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and all that it calls into question for over 50 years. I have read the writings of many prominent Christian scholars concerning the Gospel and justification by faith.

The Gospel concerns Jesus Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection and his position with God in heaven.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and is the savior of the whole world, John 3:17.

Jesus is our new humanity. Our old humanity (Adamic) was put to death when Jesus died on the cross, Romans 6:6. When Jesus died on the cross that changed everything. The Old Covenant of laws, rules and religion was abolished, Under the new Covenant, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4.

Here is the crux of the Gospel. When Jesus lived, we lived in him, our humanity was constituted in him, we were baptized into him, Romans 6:3. When Jesus died, we died with him. When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him. We are now new creations in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is all very spiritual. If you don't understand spiritual things, you will not understand the Gospel.

God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion were needed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No it is your refusal to accept the passages that deal with baptism. You don't want to deal with them cause it contradicts your view but that does not nullify what God has recorded. Either Paul was speaking the truth about the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ or he was lying we have to determine which it was not just ignore it.

So you must tell me where I got it wrong.

Good God man I dealt with them, i even explained them to you multiple times

You want to boast about you saving yourself because you allowed some man to immerse you in water. Thats your right

i will boast in God who baptized me into himself..

 

[marks]

I agree with Dispensationalists who feel that God promised special blessings for the nation Israel. I just don't believe that this involves, in any way, a restoration of the requirements of the Law of Moses. Indications exist in biblical prophecy that seem to suggest this to some people. And I recognize that they are there.

I just don't agree that they indicate there will be a literal restoration of the Law of Moses in any way, shape, or form. OT figures purely prefigure NT truth, as it has been fulfilled in Christ. Using OT figures in the OT era was necessary precisely because these prophecies were being spoken in the OT era. It would be quite inappropriate to speak too much about the passage of the Old Covenant while that Covenant was still in play.

But the individuality of Israel as a nation is just as important as an individual family member is to our family. Every individual person in our family matters. Every individual nation among those called to be "nations of God" matter, whether it is the Jewish nation we are speaking of or Christian nations. All matter to God who has called them to represent Him.

Those nations that have fallen away from their calling, whether Israel or Christian nations, can be restored. The Gospel of Christ is not just for an outreach to new peoples, but also for forgiveness for those nations that have failed, assuming they are correctable.

How do you look at passages such as this one?

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

That there is a time coming when God will regather Israel to their homeland, in regeneration, and to keep all the Law. Do you see this as a prophecy that will be fulfilled?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But that just begs the question, what is the Kingdom of God, and how is it at hand? Wait, that's two questions.

What was the kingdom that Israel was expecting? What was the kingdom promised in the OT prophets? Could that have been what Jesus meant? And could it be that they may have received that kingdom had they received Jesus?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Both. The born again of God have a new nature as Adam was created with, but also the gospel which is the power of God living inside of us.

I'm not sure it is possible to hold both positions simultaneously. Either Christ is the perfection in us, or we are ourselves perfect souls living in mortal bodies. When we are "Born Again" we do receive a New Nature. But as much as it is created to be like Christ it is not perfect as Christ is.

For me, a "New Nature" simply means that our souls have received fresh spiritual life from Christ--not that it is an entirely new, immortal entity living inside a mortal body. A "Nature" is a tendency. Our souls remain fallen souls, but legally, we've been liberated from our "fallenness."

However, we've not yet been made perfect. We've only been given access to the perfect Christ, complete with all of His fruit and virtues. Displaying Christ enables us to display *his perfection,* and not yet our own. This is our "New Nature"--not perfection, but new regular tendencies to obey God and to display His virtues.

The Apostle John is calling sin breaking the "law."

1 John 3:4-5
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

By "taking away our sins" John is meaning that *legally* our sins are erased--not that we have in any way become perfect yet.

Lawlessness was put in Adam's human nature by Satan to corrupt mankind. Thus we see Cain murdering his brother. It was in his nature.

Jesus came to take away lawlessness back out of our nature, and to dwell within us, empowering us. By His crucifixion and resurrection , Jesus took back what had been lost to Satan. See the result:

1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This is a misinterpretation of what John was saying. It is easily misunderstood because it is saying, in an abbreviated way, that we do not pursue Sin now that Christ's spiritual life has regenerated our soul. Our soul is not yet perfect, but we have access to the Spirit of Christ such that we can engage in his actual virtues, including love and compassion.

The losses given up due to Satan have not yet been fully restored. They've been legally restored, but not actually restored as it is to be fulfilled in the resurrection.

"Lawlessness" has not yet been completely expunged from our Nature. Our Nature is still a "Sin Nature." We gravitate towards Sin, but are able to resist it. Not only so, but we can also draw upon Christ regularly, indicating it is indeed a "New Nature" that we have received.

This remains a spiritual conflict, because Sin is still "trending" in our life, while at the same time we can choose to do right. More importantly, we have received from Christ a new ability to live by Christ all the time, indicating it is indeed a "New Nature.'

It is not sinless, but it has regular access to Christ through the Spirit such that we can demonstrate Christian virtues 24-7, instead of living for Sin one day and living for Christ another day. The idea is not to have temporary victories, but to experience victory all the time, subordinating the Sin Nature to the New Nature on a regular basis.

There are two types of sin. Sins unto death, and sins not unto death. John is addressing sins unto death in this chapter of the Bible. The context is verse 4 above. This is also why the New Covenant is putting the laws of God in our heart which is our conscience. This is also why Paul writes the last verse of Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith?

To me, "sins unto death" are not a reference to becoming Born Again or not. They have to do with sins we can commit, the consequences from which we cannot be protected. From such we may pray and pray and still not get an answer from God, just as King David could not pray and find relief from his child's certain death. So the "Sin unto Death" here is irrelevant from my point of view. We should avoid, with great earnestness, the more "dangerous" sins. It may not mean "Hell," but it can in fact mean great loss!

Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." With our newly cleansed nature and filled with the Spirit of Christ we are naturally righteous.

In context Paul was talking about the complementary aspects of the Law and the Gospel of Grace. Both established righteousness as the rule for Man, since we were all created in the image of God. Both the Law and the Gospel established that reality.

The change from the Law of Moses to the Covenant of Grace was an intended and natural progression, rather than a rebuttal against living by the rules of the Law. Once Christ died for sin, animal sacrifices were no longer needed. But living by the moral guidance of the Spirit of God did not change at all. Again, this has nothing to do with our adopting perfect natures through Christ!

1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

We agree on our need to be righteous, that we are not "Sinners" in the sense we remain "Sinful" and do not reflect the introduction of Christ's renewing life into our lives. We are not only forgiven, but we are also Sanctified. That is, we are called into covenant relationship with God such that we can live in relationship with God through His Word and display His virtues through our obedience.

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

This has to do with legal resolutions, and not with our supposed metamorphosis from being a Sinner to being Sinless.

We are now sinless of lawlessness, but not perfect.

This is, for me, a contradiction, introducing confusion. I'm sorry--I've had the same arguments myself, but this is how I've resolved it. I used to believe we had a sinless new soul inside of our sinful bodies. To me, that language no longer works.

Adding the mature fruit of the Spirit to our sinlessness/righteousness makes us perfect/holy. Revelation 22:11 shows we must be one or both. Jesus is coming within this decade. He is coming for a Bride without Spot or Wrinkle. Abiding in Jesus is the answer for Him to Finish us to perfection as His Bride.

I would phrase it differently. To be holy is to conform our lives to the holiness of God. We simply adopt Christ as our life and forsake the selfishness of human carnality. We avoid wants, lusts, and anything independent of God.

Fruit does not make us holy, as such, but is only the result of our choice to conform to God's holiness. If we choose to live in conformity with His will, we will produce His fruit of love and kindness.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not sure I understand? I personally believe we still, living in our mortal flesh, have within it a Sin Nature. We are weak to sin's compulsions. We regularly display levels of impatience, wants, excessive emotional reactions, etc. But we can mitigate this by the presence of Christ's life within us through our Born Again experience.

Are you saying we have sin excised from our flesh, or are you just saying that we have a pure nature from Christ existing within our sin-infected mortal bodies?

I have a question for you. Christ died the most horrible death to free us from sin, so why are their denominations who teach the opposite, that sin is still in our nature where Satan left it. Why do denominations teach that Satan wasn't defeated, that Jesus didn't free us from the works of Satan. The church seems to have itching ears to listen to doctrines of demons who make doctrines that are the opposite of truth.

 

[marks]

It is the church and it is now here no longer at hand but has come

This is not the church:

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Much love!

 

[Godslittleservant]

I agree with Dispensationalists who feel that God promised special blessings for the nation Israel. I just don't believe that this involves, in any way, a restoration of the requirements of the Law of Moses. Indications exist in biblical prophecy that seem to suggest this to some people. And I recognize that they are there.

I just don't agree that they indicate there will be a literal restoration of the Law of Moses in any way, shape, or form. OT figures purely prefigure NT truth, as it has been fulfilled in Christ. Using OT figures in the OT era was necessary precisely because these prophecies were being spoken in the OT era. It would be quite inappropriate to speak too much about the passage of the Old Covenant while that Covenant was still in play.

But the individuality of Israel as a nation is just as important as an individual family member is to our family. Every individual person in our family matters. Every individual nation among those called to be "nations of God" matter, whether it is the Jewish nation we are speaking of or Christian nations. All matter to God who has called them to represent Him.

Those nations that have fallen away from their calling, whether Israel or Christian nations, can be restored. The Gospel of Christ is not just for an outreach to new peoples, but also for forgiveness for those nations that have failed, assuming they are correctable.

This I agree with Israel can be forgiven but I do not think it as national but individual From the cross on it is an individual calling.

 

[marks]

Try not to get too fixated on one verse. What happened to baptism in Luke 24:47; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 3:19; 4:4; 5:14; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18? The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Harmonizing, that's what has to happen!

But this discussion won't be settled without establishing the true identities of the Church and Israel. If someone thinks the church is now Israel, then these passages cannot be harmonized, and something somewhere, someone will have to say, doesn't really mean what it says.

Much love!

 

[Godslittleservant]

This is not the church:

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Much love!

Why is it not the church? It is talking about the salvation of mankind is it not? If not why not?

 

[marks]

And that my friend is contrary to scripture for there is only one baptism so you have to rethink your line of thinking and also you got that backward according to Acts 19:1-5 did you even go read it before you responded?
Go read it and come and tell me what it says and we will then discuss it.

Acts 19:1-7 KJV
1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

He learned they were disciples and asked if they had received the Holy Spirit. They were ignorant concerning the Holy Spirit.

3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John's baptism was to prepare people for Jesus, and John directed them to Jesus.

5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These men accepted Paul's words, and were baptized into the Name of the Lord Jesus.

6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7) And all the men were about twelve.

The first mention of the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied, when Paul laid hands on them.

Where is there a connection here in this passage of them receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism? I don't see that. What I see is the Spirit came upon them when Paul laid hands on them.

And this can't be "cast in stone" either, considering no one laid hands on Cornelius.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

How do you look at passages such as this one?

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

That there is a time coming when God will regather Israel to their homeland, in regeneration, and to keep all the Law. Do you see this as a prophecy that will be fulfilled?

Much love!

This has been a passage I've enjoyed and appreciated since the early 70s of the last century! As I said, I fully embrace Israel's national destiny with God in the future, when Christ returns. And this passage talks about how Salvation comes to National Israel at a time when they are in unbelief, and acting inconsonant with their religion. That is certainly true today of the nation as a whole!

But more to the subject, I do not believe any reference to restoration under the Law is intended for this to take place in the NT era. At worst this refers to Israel's restoration in the OT era. At best it refers to Israel's spiritual restoration in Christ through the use of OT language. After all, OT language had to be used for those who were being spoken to at the time, since they were under covenant and obligated to that system at that time.

You would have to be more specific about what verses you are concerned with? To speak of "God's Temple," for example, it can be argued that the word "temple" applies equally to God's heavenly Temple as to earthly forms of that Temple, since the Temple of the Law was fashioned after God's true Temple in heaven.

 

[Godslittleservant]

Harmonizing, that's what has to happen!

But this discussion won't be settled without establishing the true identities of the Church and Israel. If someone thinks the church is now Israel, then these passages cannot be harmonized, and something somewhere, someone will have to say, doesn't really mean what it says.

Much love!

Yes this we must try to settle with the word of God which will be hard for we already have our minds made up as to how we see it but we must really search for the truth because apparently we are missing it. one or the other or both so let us search the scriptures.