The Messiah is a human person.
You know the trinitarians call non-trinitarians heretics. Have the trinitarians called you a heretic?
The good the bad, and the rest
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The Messiah is a human person.
You know the trinitarians call non-trinitarians heretics. Have the trinitarians called you a heretic?
“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said to him, ‘I am God Almighty. Walk before me and be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.’”
(Genesis 17:1-2, WEB)
Singular personal pronouns used for God and for the human person.
A horribly corrupted version:
“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said, ‘We am God Almighty. Walk before us and be blameless. We will make our covenant between us and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.’”
(Genesis 17:1-2, WEB)
Singular personal pronouns used for God and for the human person.
A horribly corrupted version:
“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said, ‘We am God Almighty. Walk before us and be blameless. We will make our covenant between us and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.’”
He would be a trinitarian if he believed it is true. He isn’t because he doesn’t.
Does that make the trinitarians (whom he refers to as “trinyturions”) wrong? No.
If he wants to be taken seriously he should plead his case with them without mocking them.
I told you earlier that if you are going to insist that elohim is plural - and you do - then I must insist that you translate it that way in English. Here’s what your sentence looks like when you do:
“Today, begin believing every word of gods (elohim, plural) so that you can see more clearly.”
I see you clearly.
Have the courage of your conviction to translate according to your belief. Here’s what it looks like when you do:
“Gods (elohim, plural) said, ‘Let US make man in Our image according to OUR likeness.’”
You‘re neither a Jewish monotheist nor a trinitarian. You’ve told us that in this thread, and this rendering proves that what you told us is true.
What you haven’t told me, and I doubt you’ve told the trinitarians, is why you think they are wrong.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
I did a quick search for the phrase - by anyone - on the board. It occurs one time - post #128 in this thread. That makes me think that you haven’t (and neither has anyone else) spoken with the trinitarians here about it.
Tritheists believe in elohim, plural.
“Monotheistic atheism” isn’t trinitarianism, nor have you asserted that it is.
Trinitarians (not to mention binitarians and unitarians) believe in one deity who exists.
In my opinion, anyone would be better off a trinitarian (or a binitarian or unitarian) than a “monotheistic atheist”.
There is a slight possibility that I could be persuaded by a trinitarian to become a trinitarian. I’ve stated elsewhere what would be involved in that and, to date, no trinitarian has pursued it. I continue to pursue it on my own.
Could you be persuaded to become a trinitarian again?
I’m a primitive Christian. There is no possibility that I could ever be persuaded to become a “monotheistic atheist”.
IF you think what you believe is a salvation issue, you should approach the trinitarians here with it. I think (in that case) you have a moral and ethical obligation to do it.
If it’s not, you’re making a big deal out of nothing.
P.S.
Why don’t you start a thread on “monotheistic atheism”?
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Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist, not a “monotheistic atheist”.
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I’ve been doing this for a long time and this is the first time in all these many years that I’ve made this comment. It never even crossed my mind that there would come a day when I would have to.
I’m glad I was here for it but I’m sad that it was necessary.
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I’ve been doing this for a long time and this is the first time in all these many years that I’ve made this comment. It never even crossed my mind that there would come a day when I would have to.
I’m glad I was here for it but I’m sad that it was necessary.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
“Monotheistic atheism” is the unbelief of those who oppose the Divinity of the only Son of God
That’s patently false; a self-inflicted wound. You’re making it up as you go.
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For readers who might be wondering, I believe the only Son of God is divine.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
It is the mind set of those who oppose teh Divinity of the only begotten Son of God
SEE here:
Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.
That’s not even remotely close to the definition of “monotheistic atheism”.
“You believe in God, believe also in me.” - Jesus (John 14:1)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
“You believe in God, believe also in me.” - Jesus = two Elohim
Father and Son share in the SAME worship from angels and humans
God and the Messiah are both called elohim in scripture. That does, in fact, make two persons who are called elohim.
One is worshipped as God and the other is worshipped as the messianic king. Cp. 1 Chronicles 29:20.
None of that has anything to do with “monotheistic atheism”.
“The word ‘Elohim,’ which is one of the most frequently used terms for God in the Torah and in contemporary Hebrew, is a curious word in that it functions both as a singular and a plural word. It is clearly not God’s name, which we know to be spelled with the four Hebrew letters (hence the Tetragrammaton, represented in English by YHWH). Rather, Elohim, like the English word ‘God’ is apparently God’s job description. And when it appears in a singular context (e.g., the first three words of the Torah, Bereshit bara Elohim, ‘In the beginning God created’), it clearly refers to the one true God. But every now and then the exact same word appears in a plural context, in which case it does not refer to God, but rather to other (false) gods or idols.”
Elohim in a plural context is not referring to the one true God. While that’s an elementary grammatical point, it’s also a critical theological point.
Elohim in a plural context is not referring to the one true God. While that’s an elementary grammatical point, it’s also a critical theological point.
The Messiah of course understands the point and it is reflected in his prayer to the only true God. (There is not even the remotest possibility that the Messiah prayed to a false god or idol.)
”You Father are the only true God” (John 17:3).
The Greek theon ”God” is singular, not plural. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim, which is always plural in form but, when used in reference to the Messiah’s Father - “the only true God”- it’s singular.
Elohim -> singular, the only true God.
Elohim -> plural, false gods or idols.
P.S.
Note: Elohim can also be, and is, used in scripture to describe human beings and angels.
”You Father are the only true God” (John 17:3).
The Greek theon ”God” is singular, not plural. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim, which is always plural in form but, when used in reference to the Messiah’s Father - “the only true God”- it’s singular.
Elohim -> singular, the only true God.
Elohim -> plural, false gods or idols.
P.S.
Note: Elohim can also be, and is, used in scripture to describe human beings and angels.
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“Blessed be the God and Father” -> elohim, always plural in form (no matter who or what it is used in reference to), always singular in meaning when used in reference to the God of Jewish monotheism, only one person, YHWH.
