The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Great verse there....

Good, yes, but convicting. I know I certainly don’t have the sort of discipline a professional athlete does. And yet…Paul says we ought to…
I am thankful God is Sovereign, and he is bigger than my failures.

 

[Curtis]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

The first definition that the Roman Catholics give to the word saint, is unbiblical.

In the Bible, the term saint is synonymous with believer and Christian.

Defining saint as a super Christian is bogus. All Christians are saints.

 

[Episkopos]

The first definition that the Roman Catholics give to the word saint, is unbiblical.

In the Bible, the term saint is synonymous with believer and Christian.

Defining saint as a super Christian is bogus. All Christians are saints.

Do you see any difference between the Bride of Christ and the many guests that are invited to the feast?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m sorry, you lost me at the very first paragraph. I can’t get past it. You think that God only chose the apostles to bear fruit and abide(remain in Him) in that verse and be given what they ask and that everyone else chooses God and that verse does not apply to them but only to apostles?

oh no, I don’t think it. I think you are trying to fit things wrongly because you want something to lock into place. There are some men (maybe especially those who came to Him when they were older)who absolutely know they would still be groping around in darkness if God had not chosen to let them see. They won’t be able to agree with you but I guess that’s not any worse than all the other things we don’t all agree on. :)

 

[David H.]

I’m sorry, you lost me at the very first paragraph. I can’t get past it. You think that God only chose the apostles to bear fruit and abide(remain in Him) in that verse and be given what they ask and that everyone else chooses God and that verse does not apply to them but only to apostles?

oh no, I don’t think it. I think you are trying to fit things wrongly because you want something to lock into place. There are some men (maybe especially those who came to Him when they were older)who absolutely know they would still be groping around in darkness if God had not chosen to let them see. They won’t be able to agree with you but I guess that’s not any worse than all the other things we don’t all agree on. :)

Saints in general are chosen and sent. Faith comes by hearing and receiving. ALL believers are on the road to Holiness, few are chosen to finish the race and become saints and sent out to be a testimony (Martyria). We all must abide in the vine to be fruitful.

Many are called, few are chosen. Matthew 22:14
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:8-11)

Do you have "like precious faith unto the Apostles"?

A I said at the outset, the teaching that all believers are saints is so ingrained in Protestantism that to see the simplicity of this distinction is confounding the wise. The more you think you can figure this out with human intellect the less you will be able to "see" this. Pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth. (Ephesians 1:17-23)

 

[marks]

I think there is truth in this. Paul exhorts us to:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


I think there is ample evidence that we are not condemned if we ‘fall down’…not as long as we keep our eyes on Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith…but there is the expectation that we exert self control and discipline towards a goal.

We're the ones pulling the strings on our members. Our hands and feet and eyes and tongue. They do what we cause them to do. So it's up to us to "work out" our salvation. God is working within us, changing us. I believe that God is maturing us on His Own, that He is working within us to will and do what pleases Him. In that He works in us to "will" what pleases Him, that's our inner intention. What we set ourselves to do.

So as we find in us the desire to live godly lives of love and service, it's on us to take that inner desire and pit it against the lusts of the flesh, and call upon the power of God to tip the scales in favor of Spirit. The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary against each other so you cannot do what you want.

We're caught in the middle of a struggle between flesh and spirit, but by recognizing that the flesh no longer has any actual power over us, this is the faith that overcomes tempation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They died that day from their connection with God. God through Jesus has reestablished this connection by reconciliation of the whole world unto himself.

Exactly!

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So we are in disagreement about what men whose blindness is suddenly healed will do. Your estimation of what men will generally do is opposite of mine. Yours won’t change and neither will mine.

Once again . . . that's not what I said. I don't assume it's going to be the way you assume it will. That a man will not always choose to serve God even coming to believe God is real.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just can’t with you tonight marks. The poor mans thread was derailed yesterday and I’m going to stick to his topic now.

Sounds good.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Once again . . . that's not what I said. I don't assume it's going to be the way you assume it will. That a man will not always choose to serve God even coming to believe God is real.

Much love!

Yeah, well I haven’t yet got to the serving God part. Honestly, it’s taken me so long to really believe Him and learn the obedience of trust for temporal provision and stop wavering in that trust. I certainly wasn’t going to worry about how to serve Him when I didn’t even firmly trust Him!

And I didn’t say “not always” I said “generally.” Words matter. They convey.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Delete - put in wrong thread. Sorry.

 

[marks]

I said “generally.” Words matter. They convey.

"Generally" is what I disagree with. Not always, and not necessarily generally. Everyone is different, and quite a lot of people in the Bible Saw God, had absolute proof of His reality, and did not go to Him for salvation.

How many who left Egypt entered the promised land?

No, I don't think that when you actually believe God is real that you will even generally just go to Him.

Anyway . . . Like you said, this isn't the thread.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A I said at the outset, the teaching that all believers are saints is so ingrained in Protestantism that to see the simplicity of this distinction is confounding the wise.

It seems this concept of Caste Christianity has become so ingrained in ____________ so as to prevent the clear reading of the word.

So that's how that works. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Yes. Pray for clear understanding, to see the true simplicity.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"Generally" is what I disagree with. Not always, and not necessarily generally. Everyone is different, and quite a lot of people in the Bible Saw God, had absolute proof of His reality, and did not go to Him for salvation.

Well, it actually is about the theological constructs of men…the thread

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It seems this concept of Caste Christianity has become so ingrained in ____________ so as to prevent the clear reading of the word.

So that's how that works. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Yes. Pray for clear understanding, to see the true simplicity.

Much love!

Well, I agree with Dave that it’s there. A man showed it to me with scripture and then literally everywhere I looked, there it was again. It just is. But I don’t think it’s the only knot in our theological construct. (As I said about my opinion of free will and what scripture says.) But, one knot at a time, I guess. :)

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you see any difference between the Bride of Christ and the many guests that are invited to the feast?

A huge difference . the many guests that were invited , REFUSED , the lambs , the saints accepted and endure to the end .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A huge difference . the many guests that were invited , REFUSED , the lambs , the saints accepted and endure to the end .

In the parable of the wedding feast, only one guest was thrown out. The rest of the guests stayed. So, there was a bride and groom and there were guests.

 

[David H.]

It seems this concept of Caste Christianity has become so ingrained in ____________ so as to prevent the clear reading of the word.

So that's how that works. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Yes. Pray for clear understanding, to see the true simplicity.

Caste Christianity? We are all on the path to sainthood (holiness), God chooses who becomes saints, not men.... this is not a Caste system this is Christianity. A saint is a position of service and sacrificial love not self-exaltation and self-glorification and this is where your understanding is askew.

 

[marks]

Caste Christianity? We are all on the path to sainthood (holiness), God chooses who becomes saints, not men.... this is not a Caste system this is Christianity. A saint is a position of service and sacrificial love not self-exaltation and self-glorification and this is where your understanding is askew.

A Christian is a position of service and sacrificial love not self-exaltation and self-glorification and this is where your understanding is askew.

All Christians are being conformed to this image. Do you really think there are Christians that this doesn't apply to??

Much love!

 

[marks]

A man showed it to me with scripture and then literally everywhere I looked, there it was again. It just is.

Well then . . . show the Scriptures.

Much love!