The Ekklesia; called out ones; the Church

[Episkopos]

Greetings to all. I thought to put up a biblical...yes biblical...description of what the fellowship of Christ should look like. And I wish also to add in my own experience of that. ;)

1 Cor. 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

A meeting around the headship of Christ involves a complete freedom of expression from all members present. There should be no stage or microphone or sermon or PowerPoint presentation. The church of Christ is there for the Spirit to speak and act through ALL members.

Where the Spirit is there is liberty...

So how many experience a biblical church gathering...as opposed to a human tradition based on one man controlling and manipulating people?

 

[Hisman]

Amen ...good word

 

[Episkopos]

My experience of church life has brought me to embrace a spiritual and organic form where there is order...but not control.

Freedom of speech..freedom in the Spirit.

How can the Spirit be free to speak if there is no freedom of speech in the church assembly? So to some this is taking things too far. YET...this IS the model as described by Paul. I don't see why this is ignored by people who say they are being biblical...when it's obvious that isn't true.

God begins a church by calling a man..empowering him and training him. Around that man others join...family friends, and guests and strangers. That is an oikos church...a household church. That person...who is anointed to teach...is seen as an overseer (episkopos) over that household of faith. An overseer in the one place then joins with others like himself in other parts of the city to form an elders council. It is here we see 1 Cor. 14 in action....where the many gifts are seen. This is on a city scale. The small household churches do not have that many spiritual gifts. To find so many prophets among so few?

But if God is calling different men to be the nucleus of the spiritual brethren in a given city...then at lest these will have gifts of the Spirit to share with others.

And the purpose of these gifts is to allow people to grow until they too have the same depth of relationship as the overseers. This is not a career path for the few...but a calling to edify others and prepare them for the service of God and men.

So then one overseer over a household...which when these come together form the eldership of a city-wide church. And from there an overseer is elected to represent that city...as we see in the early church from early on.

But people can't seem to come to any agreement....due to there being so little actual spiritual life.

 

[Episkopos]

Pride and jealousies: Now what stops this simple organic way from meeting in unity is the pride of men together with envies and jealousies.

Not every man is anointed to teach and lead the assembly. So then the Spirit of Cain is very present in the churches. As God chooses his Abels...the Cains are there to destroy what God is doing.

In the bible we see this with Judas...but also with Diotrephes and others who always seek their own glory. How many of these kinds of people are hiding in the churches? Many! A lot of pastors are like this...controlling and manipulative. it seems the ideal career for such as these.

in the organic churches we don't see this type of leader lasting long...hence the very short duration of most home groups. But in the religious system these men are protected by a professional clergy status (just call me reverend). And this is the downfall of the institutional system. The wrong men are too often usurping power over the flock.

Now I have seen many such men (and women to a lesser extent) vying for power. But in the groups all can share. Everyone is free. So we can tell a real God appointed minister by his care to listen to others and correct them in love where need be.

A real shepherd listens more than he speaks. And even in the sharing of the word...there is dialogos...dialogue....not sermons.

The idea of Greek oratory is perhaps good for philosophy....but is a far cry from the ekklesia where the Spirit speaks through many.

 

[Episkopos]

So I wrote this on another thread...but in the name of efficiency I repeat it here in it's original form.

The way I see this is that the organic church will have some very heated discussions...as we do in ours from time to time! :) When it comes to breaking the bread and the communion part....unless we all are in agreement or having love for one another...we shouldn't partake of communion given those times.

There have been times where I felt NOT to partake as there were guests who had basically ruined the meeting with the kind of antics we see on the forums so often. No respect for the body...or for any authority but themselves and their religious opinions. No humility or fear of the lord. So I refuse to break bread with these. I see God's displeasure and I don't want to pretend that all is well when it isn't. Normally we never see those people again. They are destined to wander about unless they repent.

And this is the cost of having freedom in the gatherings. We have free speech to allow the Holy Spirit to intervene. Where the Spirit is there is freedom. And the times that disorder has come is not to be compared to when the Spirit speaks and visitation occurs.

So then there's not much point to the warning to settle our accounts with the brethren unless there is the freedom to disagree in the meetings themselves. THAT is the biblical way. But the flesh doesn't find this comfortable. They prefer control over freedom....as do the religious institutions.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Greetings to all. I thought to put up a biblical...yes biblical...description of what the fellowship of Christ should look like. And I wish also to add in my own experience of that. ;)

1 Cor. 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

A meeting around the headship of Christ involves a complete freedom of expression from all members present. There should be no stage or microphone or sermon or PowerPoint presentation. The church of Christ is there for the Spirit to speak and act through ALL members.

Where the Spirit is there is liberty...

So how many experience a biblical church gathering...as opposed to a human tradition based on one man controlling and manipulating people?

Hi Episkopos, We seem to be of like-minds with regard to the assembling of the ekklesia for simple fellowship. The religious mindset that insists on the institutional, denominational, hierarchical model for congregational identity and interaction is indeed not biblical but is of a Babylonish spirit further corrupted by Greco-Roman influences. That is not to say all those who are entrenched in this paganised belief system are unsaved and not Christians, but rather that God's People who mistake entertainment, ritual, and rhetoric for biblical worship and fellowship are compromised.

I have often asked Christians who verbalise various complaints about their institutionalised congregations and their false, dominating leaderships, why they bother with it. Eventually some come to their senses and come out of it all and into simple authentic fellowship, as indicated to be God's Will in these verses:

Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

 

[amadeus]

But people can't seem to come to any agreement....due to there being so little actual spiritual life.

Aye! Where is the Spirit? Where is the Body of Christ?

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:13-16

 

[marks]

Hi Episkopos, We seem to be of like-minds with regard to the assembling of the ekklesia for simple fellowship. The religious mindset that insists on the institutional, denominational, hierarchical model for congregational identity and interaction is indeed not biblical but is of a Babylonish spirit further corrupted by Greco-Roman influences. That is not to say all those who are entrenched in this paganised belief system are unsaved and not Christians, but rather that God's People who mistake entertainment, ritual, and rhetoric for biblical worship and fellowship are compromised.

I have often asked Christians who verbalise various complaints about their institutionalised congregations and their false, dominating leaderships, why they bother with it. Eventually some come to their senses and come out of it all and into simple authentic fellowship, as indicated to be God's Will in these verses:

Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Hi Stumpmaster,

Do you see this to be true of all organized churches? Indemic to that style? Or to those where there is misuse? Only the house church is valid? Just wondering your ideas on this.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Stumpmaster,

Do you see this to be true of all organized churches? Indemic to that style? Or to those where there is misuse? Only the house church is valid? Just wondering your ideas on this.

Much love!

Hi marks. Thanks for your post. I think I can best answer your questions with another question, which is something Jesus Himself did on occasions. That question is "How should God's People, His ekklesia, His called out ones, assemble and interact?"

Obviously we are not all going to agree on every aspect of this which is why we can identify so many different fellowship styles throughout history.
There is sometimes the need for a large public meeting to address some matters and provide guidance, but large congregations consist of many smaller groups who habitually seek each other out for closer fellowship and edification.

I could play around with the words organised and organic, but sufficient to say that the simple fellowship of like-minded Christians who have cast off the institutional model is still organised, just not with manuals, boards, mortgages, property portfolios, committees, constitutions, and a clergy-laity division.

It's an ongoing discussion that traces back to the Acts of the Apostles as recorded by Luke. Unfortunately some groups that have sought to improve on the institutional model and distance themselves from it have lost their way, like the Quakers, and the Two by Twos, but this does not justify the paganistic ecclesiastical practices they sought to escape.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi marks. Thanks for your post. I think I can best answer your questions with another question, which is something Jesus Himself did on occasions. That question is "How should God's People, His ekklesia, His called out ones, assemble and interact?"

Obviously we are not all going to agree on every aspect of this which is why we can identify so many different fellowship styles throughout history.
There is sometimes the need for a large public meeting to address some matters and provide guidance, but large congregations consist of many smaller groups who habitually seek each other out for closer fellowship and edification.

I could play around with the words organised and organic, but sufficient to say that the simple fellowship of like-minded Christians who have cast off the institutional model is still organised, just not with manuals, boards, mortgages, property portfolios, committees, constitutions, and a clergy-laity division.

It's an ongoing discussion that traces back to the Acts of the Apostles as recorded by Luke. Unfortunately some groups that have sought to improve on the institutional model and distance themselves from it have lost their way, like the Quakers, and the Two by Twos, but this does not justify the paganistic ecclesiastical practices they sought to escape.

An excellent reply! And I agree fully. Why don't people take the bible seriously? And especially they who purport to follow the bible? I find these follow the teachings the least.

There is so little honesty among they who have been indoctrinated to really take hold of easy answers...while throwing out all the teachings of Christ and all the warnings.

people are looking for answers without understanding the questions. Nobody passes an exam that way.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Stumpmaster,

Do you see this to be true of all organized churches? Indemic to that style? Or to those where there is misuse? Only the house church is valid? Just wondering your ideas on this.

Much love!

An honest person would read the bible and then compare that with what they are doing. So instead of asking the opinions or practices of others...why won't you look at what you are doing?

Like being honest.

Read 1 Cor. 14. Do you follow the bible? Do you follow the voice of God? Or do you follow men and their traditions?

How does your practice compare with the instructions found in the bible?

 

[marks]

An honest person would read the bible and then compare that with what they are doing. So instead of asking the opinions or practices of others...why won't you look at what you are doing?

Like being honest.

You criticize my asking a person their views? And you make the leap from there that what, I'm ignorant of myself? And you use this as opportunity for innuendo . . . an honest person . . ."

Are you seeing what you are doing here? It's more innuendo, assumptions, an accusatory tone. To accomplish what?

Something to be clear about. I won't be bullied, if that is your intention. This is a forum open to the public, and your constant haranguing is not going to drive me away. I've seen you do this to others. You even mentioned it obliquely, those whom you see as being against you get the cold shoulder and aren't seen again. I'm sure they get the message.

I'm here to discuss Scriptures and the Christian life, and that is my intent. You can discuss these with me or not as you wish. Instead you continue to post like this. It's sad, but there it is. You were like this years ago when I was on the forum, and you are like this today.

And you invite me to display my life to you so you can "episkopay" me? Right!

 

[Episkopos]

You criticize my asking a person their views? And you make the leap from there that what, I'm ignorant of myself? And you use this as opportunity for innuendo . . . an honest person . . ."

Are you seeing what you are doing here? It's more innuendo, assumptions, an accusatory tone. To accomplish what?

Something to be clear about. I won't be bullied, if that is your intention. This is a forum open to the public, and your constant haranguing is not going to drive me away. I've seen you do this to others. You even mentioned it obliquely, those whom you see as being against you get the cold shoulder and aren't seen again. I'm sure they get the message.

I'm here to discuss Scriptures and the Christian life, and that is my intent. You can discuss these with me or not as you wish. Instead you continue to post like this. It's sad, but there it is. You were like this years ago when I was on the forum, and you are like this today.

And you invite me to display my life to you so you can "episkopay" me? Right!

So then how does what you practice compare with what is written in the bible? Say... 1 Cor. 14?

 

[marks]

So then how does what you practice compare with what is written in the bible? Say... 1 Cor. 14?

Did you read my post? You are unbelievable.

Let's back up a bit. Is that your Only response?

 

[Episkopos]

You criticize my asking a person their views? And you make the leap from there that what, I'm ignorant of myself? And you use this as opportunity for innuendo . . . an honest person . . ."

Are you seeing what you are doing here? It's more innuendo, assumptions, an accusatory tone. To accomplish what?

Something to be clear about. I won't be bullied, if that is your intention. This is a forum open to the public, and your constant haranguing is not going to drive me away. I've seen you do this to others. You even mentioned it obliquely, those whom you see as being against you get the cold shoulder and aren't seen again. I'm sure they get the message.

I'm here to discuss Scriptures and the Christian life, and that is my intent. You can discuss these with me or not as you wish. Instead you continue to post like this. It's sad, but there it is. You were like this years ago when I was on the forum, and you are like this today.

And you invite me to display my life to you so you can "episkopay" me? Right!

I think you are always reading my posts as if I was the same as you...passive aggressive. That's why you react so drastically. I am pointed and truthful in my posts...but they are gently written. Not aggressive....just honest.

Have you noticed that I decry the lack of honesty among believers?

But you see the search for truth as directly attacking you. Do you see yourself? Do you see your own reactions? They are yours...

What are you trying to hide?

 

[marks]

So then how does what you practice compare with what is written in the bible? Say... 1 Cor. 14?

To this point . . . I have made it my practice to not put myself on display as so many others seem to not mind.

You know that I hold to Scripture, the Bible. I know that you do not give it the same regard as do I. Spare me the insults about making the Bible an idol, let's just keep on point.

I can discuss the Bible, and then I can discuss myself. You question about myself for what purpose? I know you want to judge me. Episkopay.

So the topic becomes what you think of me (not too different, really) instead of, what does the Bible mean?

So I'm to defend myself to you? I don't find profit in that.

Do I somehow feel the need to "authenticate" myself to others with glowing testmonies, stories of power and glory, triumphs over the flesh? Again, to what purpose? If my teaching is true to the Word, then good! I share details of my life as I believe the Holy Spirit wants me to, appropriately, with a purpose.

You ask me if my life conforms to Scripture. What does Scripture teach?

All sins are conquered by a simple faith in the finished work of Jesus. All sin is forgiven in Christ, Who by His death removed all sin. By placing our reliance on Jesus, we are free from sinning, and we walk in the Spirit. And at any moment we are doing so, then so we walk. In our lives, now, right now, in Christ, all can be love, all can be joy, all can be peace. Knowing we are His forever, that He delights that we are His, it was what He wanted to do, to create us for love, His love, to receive His love, and to take the same delight in sharing His love with others, and in loving Him.

If we don't realize, if we doubt that we are completely forgiven in Christ, and that we've been reborn a new creation, holy and righteous, then we live in condemnation and fear, and we don't expect to overcome, and often don't. But in these truths that we are completely and fully reconciled to God, and that we are now His spirit children sharing His nature, we have the full assurance of His love, and now can enjoy His love forever! Rejoicing evermore! And we have the confidence before Him as our lives reflect His love for others, as we love others.

And giving ourselves to others, but appropriately, unto the Spirit, letting it be His work.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think you are always reading my posts as if I was the same as you...passive aggressive. That's why you react so drastically. I am pointed and truthful in my posts...but they are gently written. Not aggressive....just honest.

Actually I've known you to be aggressive towards myself and others for quite a long time. Those who disagree with you get that end of the stick.

So you say, pointed and truthful, gently written, I say, negative, tearing down, slurring with innuendo, sometimes outright accusation, but hey, that's just what I see.

And I guess what you call a "drastic reaction", to me is just bringing things a little more into the light.

Between us God will be the judge, and the readers will all have their own opinions.

And yes, I do love you! I don't know you, but you are one of God's creation, and I want for you to know Him now and forever! (without making comment whether you do or don't, that's not what I'm saying)

 

[Episkopos]

I know that you do not give it the same regard as do I.

I actually follow the bible and the words they contain. What other regard do you mean? So I'm asking...on this thread...do you follow the bible in the way you meet with others...as in 1 Cor. 14?

 

[marks]

There is sometimes the need for a large public meeting to address some matters and provide guidance, but large congregations consist of many smaller groups who habitually seek each other out for closer fellowship and edification.

This is how I see assemblies functioning also. The only thing is that many more come to the general meetings than are part of the smaller groups.

I like your wording, habitually seek each other out, that's what we do. That's the kind of bonding we need with each other to be healthy in the body.

One thing to keep in mind is that the first gentile church is Antioch was itself apparently a "mega-church" with several thousands meeting regularly to hear Paul and others teach. The first church assembly in Jerusalem was many thousands all gathering together.

Persecution drove people into hiding. Where I live there is no persecution of that sort, so we can freely meet. I'm part of a Calvary Chapel. We bear the same organization you'd expect, from the outside, I suppose, but in the years I've been there, and see from the inside, organic, the way people mean it in this sense, is a good word. But I'd just say, Spirit filled. It's not like we just grow it on our own.

manuals, boards, mortgages, property portfolios, committees, constitutions, and a clergy-laity division.

I agree, these do not help spiritual unity and growth, well, except for the mortgage, if you want to have a building, and haven't paid it off yet. We rent, actually.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

What is the point of having "a high regard" for the bible...even claiming a person has more regard than another...while ignoring the content of it?

Very few people actually take the bible seriously enough to actually follow it. And it seems the more that the bible is "venerated" the less seriously it is taken.. Sign of the times.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

A good question for the believers of these modern times.