The Doctrine of OSAS

[StanJ]

It has been my unfortunate experience that a great many OSASers do this.
As another beloved brother has said...it's like trying to herd cats....

 

[Barrd]

Question for OSASers...

Who were Hymenaeus and Alexander?

 

[Barrd]

 

[ATP]

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[justaname]

You know what is funny, is that we've come a long way from simply arguing about OSAS.

These ideas of yours...that God creates people specifically to destroy them, for instance....are totally unacceptable to me. I can't even imagine how you could believe that about a God Who is the very personification of LOVE.
It seems to me to be a singularly nasty aspersion on His character.
Not enough to have Him torturing people in hell through eternity, now, it seems, He actually creates people for the purpose. What a sadistic monster you have painted...

And then, there is the insistence on changing the wording from "perserverence of the saints" to "preservation of the saints", which is quite a different thing. Perserverence is something that we do for ourselves. Preservation, on the other hand, requires no effort on our part.

Basically, you seem to have the idea that some folks, through no fault of their own, simply have no chance at all to be saved, because God rejected them before He ever created the first molecule.

My question, then, is this.

What is the point of any of it, then? Why bother to preach the gospel at all? Why have a judgment, if the outcome were pre-arranged? Why would Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross, if salvation had already been accomplished before creation? Not only a sadist, you paint God to also be a masochist.

The god you worship is evidently one messed up dude...

Nothing whatsoever at all like the God of the Bible....

And from my comment of building a straw-man you decide to build another...

You just don't quit do you?

 

[justaname]

It now become VERY clear that you have NO real intention of debating civilly or honestly, so I won't bother going any further with you.

You have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? (Mark 8:18)

I have not been dishonest in anything. I have been completely cordial in this discussion. Once I point out the faults in your tactics you quit the discussion...

 

[StanJ]

I have not been dishonest in anything. I have been completely cordial in this discussion. Once I point out the faults in your tactics you quit the discussion...

I guess that's a matter of whether you understand the meaning of those words. IMO, you don't and from experience I won't waste my time with inculcated people.

 

[StanJ]

And from my comment of building a straw-man you decide to build another...

You just don't quit do you?

Actually there is NOTHING wrong with the scenario presented, as it is an ACTUAL one. Your dismissiveness is typical of people of your dogmatic position. FYI, denial proves nothing.

 

[justaname]

What is the point? It is to do the will of God that he has ordained for us to do.

If you are given the opertunity to share the Gospel with someone, what you do is part of both your destinies. If you let the opertunity slip through your fingers, either someone else will need to do it or it will never happen. Whatever happens is destiny as well..

Perhaps it is better when he keeps his own council sometimes.

In every choice we make we fulfill our greatest desire. All our choices fall in line with God's plan although He does not make our choices for us.

What is the point? To love God and others. Why? Because this is why we are created. Motive is key here. If we love others to save our skin, to maintain our salvation, then we are only loving ourselves which is not love rather vanity.

What's the point we are going to be saved anyways? Well not with that attitude you are not. This type of attitude displays pride, not humility. This attitude does not display faith but again vanity.

If you don't understand the point you need to get back to the basics. (This is not directed to you Iforrest) We are saved by God's mercy and grace through faith.

Grace is unwarranted favor.
Mercy is forbearance shown towards an offender.
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is trusting God's mercy and grace.

A basic premise behind the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is God is the acting force in our salvation. Not us. This is what the scriptures support as we are passive participants in salvation. The Greek points this out well, the English not so well.

 

[justaname]

I guess that's a matter of whether you understand the meaning of those words. IMO, you don't and from experience I won't waste my time with inculcated people.

Stan,

You changed the definition of predestination to suit your doctrine. I called you on it, and now you say it's a matter of if you understand the words.

Do you want me to agree with your personal definition here?

 

[justaname]

Actually there is NOTHING wrong with the scenario presented, as it is an ACTUAL one. Your dismissiveness is typical of people of your dogmatic position. FYI, denial proves nothing.

The problem is there are many actual scenarios I don't hold to. What makes me beholden to this straw-man she is building?

I do not and have not held to double predestination.
Predestination is the believer being conformed into Christ's image.

 

[justaname]

Because this continually gets ignored...

Those opposed to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints please deal with this text.

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Will you be bold enough to say Jesus will lose some? If they walk away on their own accord Jesus has lost them and failed His Father. Just as any shephard that has a sheep wander off, the sheep are his responsibility. A sheep that left the flock on their own will is lost by the shephard.


God the Father gives God the Son those who are raised up on the last day. These are chosen by God for glory predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son.

And again Judas is not one that was lost by Jesus because he was prophesied as the son of perdition.

 

[justaname]

First of all, Jesus doesn't "lose" anyone. Someone falling away, or losing his or her faith is not something Jesus does...it is something that individual does.
Second, your remark about Judas is uncalled for.
You do know the man suicided, yes?

One thing you said that was right...one scripture doesn't contradict another scripture.
Therefore, all of those scriptures that talk about how we can fall away, or leave our faith, are valid.

Here you are saying the Good Shephard is not responsible for His sheep, the sheep are responsible for themselves. That is ludicrous.

What is uncalled for about Judas? He is the son of perdition, spoken of in the scriptures. If God raised up Pharoah, did He not raise up this one also?

Those who God saves never fall away. Those who are attempting to save themselves are deluded.

 

[ATP]

There's that word believe again. Born of God, imperishable seed...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:1 NIV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

 

[Barrd]

And from my comment of building a straw-man you decide to build another...

You just don't quit do you?

Call it a "straw man" if you like...can you answer my question?

What is the point of any of it, then? Why bother to preach the gospel at all? Why have a judgment, if the outcome were pre-arranged? Why would Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross, if salvation had already been accomplished before creation?

The pride of those who imagine themselves to be "pre-chosen" is overwhelming...and why not? Why bother to "do unto others" etc....you can't possibly lose your salvation, being as you were chosen before you ever took your first breath...

 

[justaname]

Call it a "straw man" if you like...can you answer my question?

What is the point of any of it, then? Why bother to preach the gospel at all? Why have a judgment, if the outcome were pre-arranged? Why would Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross, if salvation had already been accomplished before creation?

The pride of those who imagine themselves to be "pre-chosen" is overwhelming...and why not? Why bother to "do unto others" etc....you can't possibly lose your salvation, being as you were chosen before you ever took your first breath...

This fits your imagination but not reality. You accuse of pride, yet humility is the response of those chosen by God. Like Abraham and Noah we are spurred into action out of our love for Him. Yet let me rejoice in your accusations for only God knows the hearts. (Didn't you argue this point to me yet you do not follow, this is twice I have caught you now...tisk, tisk)

The gospel is preached because the gospel is the vehicle God uses for salvation. Judgement is the righteous act of God because man sins against Him. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for sin.

We do onto others because this is the teaching of our Lord and Savior and we are being conformed into His image.

If God is not sovereign over the decisions and choices of individuals, then it would be pointless to pray for the salvation of anyone, or repentance of someone in sin. Furthermore, all the verses that promise protection or security to the believer would be pointless, because God will apparently not prevent someone from falling from faith. The power of God's new covenant promises would be pointless and ineffective, the blood of Jesus insufficient to complete the purchase of individuals.
This is taken from http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

 

[Barrd]

This fits your imagination but not reality. You accuse of pride, yet humility is the response of those chosen by God. Like Abraham and Noah we are spurred into action out of our love for Him. Yet let me rejoice in your accusations for only God knows the hearts. (Didn't you argue this point to me yet you do not follow, this is twice I have caught you now...tisk, tisk)

The gospel is preached because the gospel is the vehicle God uses for salvation. Judgement is the righteous act of God because man sins against Him. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for sin.

We do onto others because this is the teaching of our Lord and Savior and we are being conformed into His image.

If God is not sovereign over the decisions and choices of individuals, then it would be pointless to pray for the salvation of anyone, or repentance of someone in sin. Furthermore, all the verses that promise protection or security to the believer would be pointless, because God will apparently not prevent someone from falling from faith. The power of God's new covenant promises would be pointless and ineffective, the blood of Jesus insufficient to complete the purchase of individuals.
This is taken from http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So much for the foolish doctrine of pre-destination.

And now, I think we are done here, Justaname. I would prefer to end this debate between you and I amicably...but if I am going to do that, I must walk away.

 

[ATP]

Exod 20:20 NIV Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

 

[lforrest]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So much for the foolish doctrine of pre-destination.

And now, I think we are done here, Justaname. I would prefer to end this debate between you and I amicably...but if I am going to do that, I must walk away.

Those verses do nothing to disprove pre-destination. There is no evidence that pre-destination and free will are mutually exclusive.

 

[Barrd]

Those verses do nothing to disprove pre-destination. There is no evidence that pre-destination and free will are mutually exclusive.

These verses show that God is "no respecter of persons":

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

These verses show that salvation is not limited to a pre-selected few, but freely offered to everyone:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you not see that salvation is offered to all? There is no "select group" of people who were "predestined" to be saved, while all the rest of humanity is rejected.
The very best the Calvanists can claim is that God "foreknew" who would and who would not accept His gift...which is not the same thing as "pre-choosing" anyone.

And finally:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

Now, if you are "pre chosen" and kept safe by the will of God, then Peter was talking through is fisherman's cap. There would be no reason for such a warning.
Yet, God saw fit to include this warning through the mouth of His chosen Apostle.

I believe I'll take His Word over yours...