Shalom, Ernest T. Bass.
Ernest T. Bass said:
People choose to have faith/belief by choice and they can also choose to quit believing by choice.... 1 Tim 5:12 Heb 3:12
You keep using these verses; let's look at them:
1 Tim. 5:12 is found within this context:
1 Timothy 5:3-15
3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when "their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ," they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
NIV
1 Timothy 5:3-15
3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them (the children) learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (an unbeliever).
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore (60) years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when "they have begun to wax wanton against Christ," they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
KJV
There's a direct link between "faith" and "faithfulness." "Faith" is having "trust." "Faithfulness" is being "trustworthy." Verse 12 is more about these young widows being "trustworthy" than it is about them having "trust." The key is in the phrase used to translate a single Greek word in verse 11:
katastreeniasoosin, spelled kappa-alpha-tau-alpha-sigma-tau-rho-eta-iota-alpha-sigma-omega-sigma-iota-nu with the accent on the last alpha. It looks formidable, but it is easily broken down to smaller, easier-to-undertstand portions: First, it has the prefix preposition, "
kata." This means "down." Then it has the root verb form "
streeniaoo," which is defined in Strong's Greek Dictionary as...
NT:2691 katastreeniaoo (kat-as-tray-nee-ah'-o); from NT:2596 and NT:4763; to become voluptuous against:
KJV - begin to wax wanton against.
NT:2596 kata (kat-ah'); a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined):
KJV - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) alone, among, and, apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, covered, [daily-], down, every, (+far more) exceeding, more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, by any means, beyond (out of) measure, mightily, more, natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+your) own, particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.
NT:4763 streeniaoo (stray-nee-ah'-o); from a presumed derivative of NT:4764; to be luxurious:
KJV - live deliciously.
NT:4764 streenos (stray'-nos); akin to NT:4731; a "straining", "strenuousness" or "strength", i.e. (figuratively) luxury (voluptuousness):
KJV - delicacy.
NT:4731 stereos (ster-eh-os'); from NT:2476; stiff, i.e. solid, stable (literally or figuratively):
KJV - stedfast, strong, sure.
NT:2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee); a prolonged form of a primary staoo (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):
KJV - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare NT:5087.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Using various sources, the word translated as "damnation" and "judgment" above in verse 12 is the Greek word "
krima" from which we get our words "crime" and "criminal."
NT:2917 krima (kree'-mah); from NT:2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ["crime"]):
KJV - avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, go to law, judgment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Thus, the word simply means the act of being judged, by either God or other men, or it can also mean the verdict of that judgment, a negative outcome or a positive outcome. One can assume a negative outcome in this passage, but not if the verdict has not yet been reached. Assume a neutral condition until the judgment has been rendered! Why do you think our forefathers in this country came to the conclusion that "a man is innocent until proven guilty?" It is our NATURAL instinct to jump to the conclusion of guilty without first hearing all the facts.
These young widows - young ladies who lost their husbands early (probably to persecution) - are being excluded from the number of widows who will be supported by the congregation because they are young and have their whole lives ahead of them (if they survive the persecutions and other calamities of life, that is). They can decide to remarry if the occasion presents itself, and that's not a bad thing. However, there were some who enjoyed the lifestyle with which they had grown accustomed to living when their husbands were alive, and there were some who took advantage of the good will of others after their husbands died and were growing accustomed to living "high on the hog" now that their husbands were gone. This self-indulgence was condemnable. So, the word "
krina" is used here because they were individually being judged. They were in a precarious situation of life, and they could go either way: Were they going to remain celibate and committed to the cause of the Messiah or were they going to remarry? The "jury was still out!"
Therefore, this verse is not talking about one's trust in God for His justification at all! It was WRENCHED out of its context.
Now, let's look at the context of Hebrews 3:12:
Hebrews 3:1-19
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
KJV
To whom is the author of Hebrews talking? He is talking to the HEBREWS scattered among the nations. The word "Hebrew" refers to a "child of Isra'el WANDERER." So, when He uses the word "brethren" or "brothers" he may not necessarily be talking to believers; he may just be talking to fellow-Hebrews as LITERAL brothers (or at least cousins) within Isra'el. Looking at Hebrews 3:1, the verse gives the impression that He is talking to believers AMONG the general Diaspora, the Hebrews scattered among the nations. When he addresses his "HOLY brethren," then he is talking primarily to the believers among His brethren.
Secondly, the "thee's" and "thou's" of the KJV are singular while the "ye's" and "you's" are plural. It's important that one notes the word here in verse 12 is "you," stemming from the Greek word "
humoon," both plural. The word "in" comes from NT:1722 which is "
en." And, over half the time that the English word "among" is used in the translation, it comes from this word, "
en" (118 times out of 205 instances of "among"), and that primarily when the object of the preposition is a plural noun or pronoun. The point is that this phrase could have been translated as "among you" (as "among you all").
This would render verse 12 as ...
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be among you any evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Just to confirm, here's the Greek:
12 Blepete, adelfoi, meepote estai en tini humoon kardia poneera apistias en too aposteenai apo Theou zoontos,
13 alla parakaleite heautous kath’ hekasteen heemeran, achris hou to Seemeron kaleitai, hina mee skleerunthee tis ex humoon apatee tees hamartias —
Thus, it was not one of THEM who turned to having an evil heart of unbelief, but one AMONG them who had an evil heart of unbelief. That's a minor difference with MAJOR significance!
Shalom, BornAgain.
BornAgain said:
The false view of "once saved always saved" is always wrong and is not found in the bible. Galatians 5:4, You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace. In Acts 2:37 the question is asked, "What must we do?" The answer is, repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins." When one dies in sin, you die in a lost state and that person is in a lost state.
Don't be mislead through the false idea of once saved, always saved...you cannot believe it or practice it (Rom 1:32). In 2 Pet 3:17, the bible says, "you therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error or the wicked." We can fall from grace.
In Col 2:8: "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Paul has warned us about these things because the idea of "once saved, always saved: is a false philosophy that is sending many souls to hell.
It's wrong to say "once saved, always saved." Say rather "once justified by God, always justified by God." THEN, it makes sense! It's not about US; it's all about HIM!
Shalom Harry3142.
Harry3142 said:
I have encountered those who are using the argument of OSAS to defend relationships that are contrary to Scriptural directives. One person in particular on another website is arguing that since we are saved by faith alone none of us are declared righteous through our own actions, but rather through our putting our trust in Jesus' atoning sacrifice. So irregardless of what lifestyle we adopt, we will all be seen as sinners who have been saved solely through God's grace. So why not live lifestyles which are forbidden by Scripture?
The counter to that argument is that Scripture itself tells us that once we see Jesus Christ's sacrifice as beneficial, and so accept it into our lives, we find that we want to show our gratitude for what God has done on our behalf by accepting a lifestyle which accords with Scripture. And Scripture is quite clear as to which actions and motivations we are to shun, as well as which actions and motivations we are to embrace:
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)
For each physical birth there are three main criteria which determine whether that birth is successful or not. If the newborn has a spontaneous heartbeat, can breathe independently, and has discernable brain activity, then the birth is seen as successful. Likewise, when a person claims to have been reborn there are criteria which determine whether that is truly the case. If his actions identify him as having a new nature (the fruit of the Spirit), then the rebirth has been genuine. However, if his actions identify him as still being led by his sinful nature (the acts of the sinful nature), then there is a problem. Either he has misunderstood what becoming a Christian entails, or he has paid lipservice to Christian teachings in the mistaken notion that by doing so he can provide for himself 'immunity from prosecution' for his actions, or he has paid lipservice to Christian teachings solely in order to 'get on the inside' and pervert those same teachings so as to make them serve his own agenda.
But St. Paul was quite clear in his warning that those who cling to the sinful nature (the acts of the sinful nature) rather than accepting the new nature (the fruit of the Spirit) will reap what they sow:
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. (Galatians 6:7-10,NIV)
Ah! But you see, once one is justified by God, one IS always justified by God! Paul knew this argument of which you speak and wrote about it several times:
Romans 3:3-8
3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly (by way of contrast), what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8 Why not say — as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say — "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
NIV
Later, he argues...
Romans 6:1-23
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV
2 Corinthians 5:1-21
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (trading places);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (trading places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the subject of trading places).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech (beg) you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (trade places with God).
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV
So, if Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) died for our sin, AS our sin, why would we want to sin any longer and heap more upon His head for which He had to die?! It would be like driving another stake into His hands or feet, like another thorn on the crown of thorns driven into His scalp! If our sins hurt Him upon the cross, then NO MORE SINNING!
Even John noted this truth in his epistle:
1 John 4:15-5:4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
KJV
Even Yeshua` gave us this to consider:
Luke 17:6-10
6 And the Lord said,
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. (I don't think so!)
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
KJV
Thus, we're not even "break even" slaves if we've only done what we were supposed to do! How could we possibly do more than expected? We CAN'T!!!
Look, we don't do righteous deeds to keep in good standing with God; that doesn't work! We do righteous deeds because He has done so much for us and we just want to do something for Him in return! We love Him because He first loved us! But, even our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we're not even good, "break-even" slaves, paying back in labor what we cost Him to purchase us! All we can do is what we're instructed to do, and we can't even do THAT right all the time! So, although one who is a child of God has the technical freedom "to do whatever he wants to do," one who truly loves God doesn't WANT to do "whatever he's free to do!"
Thank God that His love for us isn't performance based! He loves us UNCONDITIONALLY! And He accepts us as His dear children without expecting something in return!
Ephesians 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
KJV
Now, children who are naughty are corrected and put in "time out" for a while, but God is dealing with us as His children when He disciplines us. He's not writing us out of His will! He disciplines us to make us better! He corrects us so that we might be correct!
Learn the difference between discipline and punishment.
