The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

No grace was given to mankind becuase he is imperfect, the law was given to the Jews to show them we are imperfect. The only ones who speak of this " licence to sin" are those who claim to keep the law and by what the bible says, are sinners. It has become your stumbling block that you are trying to put before others.

It is not a sin to be human, no matter what the devil says.

God gave us His Son who was laid upon the cross for our sins, why are so many ashamed of His work, that they think they can do better.

Humans sin, Mj.
That's just a fact.

 

[justaname]

I honestly can't find anything on theologians who have used this phrase.

But you know...I don't think it matters.

For me...yes, I understand that God will still love me no matter how badly I mess up...and that He will always forgive me....if I ask Him to.
That isn't the point. The point is the damage that sin does...in my life, and in the lives of the ones I love.
I'm not going to go into painful personal details in an open forum tonight...but trust me when I tell you....I've had my trip to God's woodshed, and I took my whipping like a woman. I learned from the mistake I made. Not saying I'm perfect...no one is...but I won't be making a mistake like that again.

Now, that, kids, is real GRACE....

Could I turn my back on God, walk away, and do what I wanted to do anyway? Yes, I could. And I know others who have.
God will not force His love on me, or on anyone else.

But oh...how empty my life was without Him!

Here is the catch I believe...you are correct in saying God does not force His love, yet once you are born again there is nothing that can compare to it. God reveals His love to you and there is nothing your heart desires more! You desire to move closer and delve deeper into it. God is your confession and obsession. This along with His holy fear keeps your heart fixed on Him...

This is what causes you to obey the commands...this is what causes you to abide...this is what binds your wandering heart to Him...

Again glory be to God!

 

[Barrd]

They will soon learn that religion will not save them.

ATP, Lord love you, son...you have a bad attitude.
Where is your humility?
Where is your Christian love?

Where is Christ in you?

 

[Barrd]

Here is the catch I believe...you are correct in saying God does not force His love, yet once you are born again there is nothing that can compare to it. God reveals His love to you and there is nothing your heart desires more! You desire to move closer and delve deeper into it. God is your confession and obsession. This along with His holy fear keeps your heart fixed on Him...

This is what causes you to obey the commands...this is what causes you to abide...this is what binds your wandering heart to Him...

Again glory be to God!

Way back in the beginning, when it was mainly me and ATP having this debate, I said something similar...
As I recall, I said that, if one truly loved Jesus Christ, the very idea that he or she has disappointed Him will be devastating to them. That person will be driven to his or her knees by their own guilt...and they will beg Him in tears to forgive them.

I was told that this would be a "work" on my part....and showed that I did not trust in the finished work that Christ did for me on the cross....

*sigh*

 

[ATP]

ATP, Lord love you, son...you have a bad attitude.
Where is your humility?
Where is your Christian love?

Where is Christ in you?

You believe one can lose their salvation, but the Word of God says we are secure forever Heb 9:12.

 

[Barrd]

So now I have come full circle....

 

[Barrd]

You believe one can lose their salvation, but the Word of God says we are secure forever Heb 9:12.

Didn't you tell me that Hebrews is a "Jewish Book"?

And I told you that the entire Bible is a "Jewish Book"....

 

[ATP]

Didn't you tell me that Hebrews is a "Jewish Book"?

And I told you that the entire Bible is a "Jewish Book"....

lol no argument.

 

[ATP]

Eph 1:13-14. We are sealed until death.

 

[Barrd]

I have a blog on this site.
If anyone is interested, I have posted a couple of excerpts from the book "The First Sinner"...one describes the crucifixion, and the other the moment when Simon of Cyrene agreed to carry Christ's cross to Calvary for Him.
I'd be interested in your comments....

I may be posting more to this blog...I haven't really made up my mind yet. But if you're interested, let me know!

 

[FHII]

I honestly can't find anything on theologians who have used this phrase.

But you know...I don't think it matters.

Well, how hard did you try? I even gave you a clue where to start. Did you start with calvin? Guess what is so funny and ironic about this!

Yep. John calvin used the phrase and the same arguements you do. I don't know if he first coined the phrase, but he's the first I know of.

Does it matter? Overall, no. But it shows that people aren't paying attention to detail nor are they reading for understanding, but rather for opportunities to respond.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of calvin, but for other reasons.

As for what does matter, I do believe in predestination and tgat if you a chosen, no man - not even youself- is going to change what God has ordained.

God's going to work it out.

 

[ATP]

The devil is stupid. He thinks he can shake the faith of believers making them believe they can lose their salvation.

 

[Barrd]

Well, how hard did you try? I even gave you a clue where to start. Did you start with calvin? Guess what is so funny and ironic about this!

Yep. John calvin used the phrase and the same arguements you do. I don't know if he first coined the phrase, but he's the first I know of.

Does it matter? Overall, no. But it shows that people aren't paying attention to detail nor are they reading for understanding, but rather for opportunities to respond.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of calvin, but for other reasons.

As for what does matter, I do believe in predestination and tgat if you a chosen, no man - not even youself- is going to change what God has ordained.

God's going to work it out.

I typed in two or three different phrases...not knowing just what you wanted me to find, I suppose it's kinda difficult to know what to look for.

Would it surprise you if I told you that I don't believe in "predestination" either? Well, I believe that God knows in advance who will come to Him, and who will not...but I don't believe He forces anyone against their will.

God is omniscient...that means there is nothing He doesn't know.

Kinda like my grandmother....

 

[FHII]

I typed in two or three different phrases...not knowing just what you wanted me to find, I suppose it's kinda difficult to know what to look for.

Would it surprise you if I told you that I don't believe in "predestination" either? Well, I believe that God knows in advance who will come to Him, and who will not...but I don't believe He forces anyone against their will.

God is omniscient...that means there is nothing He doesn't know.

Kinda like my grandmother....

I did beat around the bush a little. At least you tried. But typing in, " license to sin John Calvin" into google... I thought would be a no brainer. Next time, call grandma! :)

But my point shouldn't be taken too lightly. If you really study calvin, you get the impression that he wasn't a calvinist. I didn't look at the link, but it seems justaname hinted at the same thing.

Look sister. All I'm saying is be careful with whatever you post. Its tough to blame you cause the majority believe this garbage about calvin. He was actually a believer in being pious.

Doesn't surprise me that you don't believe in predestination. I do. I also believe there ain't a sin man can do in the flesh that God can't forgive. I also don't believe the whole "license to sin" arguement because I don't need a license to sin; I'm gonna do it with or without a license! I do need forgiveness from being a sinner and for my sins to be covered.

See, what happens when my sins are forgiven, covered and not even acknowledged by God (I speak of sins of the flesh) is that I no longer have to worry about my sins and can focus onhis word, his teachings and his will.

But thats a topic for another time.

 

[Barrd]

I did beat around the bush a little. At least you tried. But typing in, " license to sin John Calvin" into google... I thought would be a no brainer. Next time, call grandma! :)

But my point shouldn't be taken too lightly. If you really study calvin, you get the impression that he wasn't a calvinist. I didn't look at the link, but it seems justaname hinted at the same thing.

Look sister. All I'm saying is be careful with whatever you post. Its tough to blame you cause the majority believe this garbage about calvin. He was actually a believer in being pious.

Doesn't surprise me that you don't believe in predestination. I do. I also believe there ain't a sin man can do in the flesh that God can't forgive. I also don't believe the whole "license to sin" arguement because I don't need a license to sin; I'm gonna do it with or without a license! I do need forgiveness from being a sinner and for my sins to be covered.

See, what happens when my sins are forgiven, covered and not even acknowledged by God (I speak of sins of the flesh) is that I no longer have to worry about my sins and can focus onhis word, his teachings and his will.

But thats a topic for another time.

Hey...let's not diss ol' Grandma!

All kidding aside, I had just read something about Calvin. To be honest, I really wasn't very interested....no offense...I'm a HUGE fan of Jesus Christ, and John, of course....and I'm inordinately fond of Peter. Honorable mention to the rest of the 11...and a nod to Paul, as well....
After that, I see no reason to consult anyone else.
Not that I have anything against anyone else...just don't have much for them, either.

I do think the idea that "my sins are covered, so I'm not worried about them" is kinda...well...no offense, please....but I just cannot agree with that. It was sin that put my precious Lord up on that cross...and for that reason alone, sin is intolerable....both in myself, and in others.

 

[ATP]

I do think the idea that "my sins are covered, so I'm not worried about them"

It's one thing to preach repentance.
It's another thing to say a believer can lose their salvation because of lack of repentance.
God telling us to repent is biblical.
God telling us we will lose our salvation and go to hell is not biblical.

 

[mjrhealth]

Humans sin, Mj.
That's just a fact.

Yes, we know, and God knew that from teh beggining, so He gave us his son, so it would no longer be a problem, but for many it will always remain an issue, because they havnt "truly" ecepted grace, and teh devil will keep them wrapped arouind his thumb, questioning there salvation, bringing doubt which forgoes faith and undoing all or Lords good work. The devil is good at it, hes has a millenium of practice with us and he knows what buttons to push.

In all His Love

 

[Butch5]

I'm one of those who reads but doesn't post (or in my case, rarely posts these days). Let ne put it to you this way: I'm not impressed. There are some glimmers of light, but I don't see alot of people listening to undetstand anyone else's perspective.

A very small example: someone stated that grace isn't a license to sin. That oerson ought to look into the history of that analogy. They'd be shocked and probably embarrassed.

Hi FHII,

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I've heard and understand their perspective, I have for years. The problem is that the arguments are either fallacious or use Scripture passages out of context. I've not seen anyone in arguing for OSAS lay out a logical argument for the doctrine. Instead it's just been Scripture hurling. I wonder if they think we've never seen those verses they post. Of course we've seen them, we just understand them differently. So, when those arguing for OSAS just post a passage of Scripture without explaining how they've drawn their conclusion it serves no purpose.

 

[Butch5]

Heb 9:12 NIV. Eternal is forever Butch.


If they stop believing these people were never saved by grace to begin with. Apostates are everywhere in scripture.

You know "olam" and "aionios" don't mean eternal.

Ah, you're claiming to know people's minds again. You don't know who believes and who doesn't. Jesus knew who believed because the Father told Him. Jesus said some believed for a while and in time of temptation fall away. You can continue to pretend you can read minds or you can take Jesus' word for it.

 

[Barrd]

Yes, we know, and God knew that from teh beggining, so He gave us his son, so it would no longer be a problem, but for many it will always remain an issue, because they havnt "truly" ecepted grace, and teh devil will keep them wrapped arouind his thumb, questioning there salvation, bringing doubt which forgoes faith and undoing all or Lords good work. The devil is good at it, hes has a millenium of practice with us and he knows what buttons to push.

In all His Love

There is a judgment call in there....as if you might have a clue as to who has or who has not accepted God's grace.
Mjrhealth, with all due respect, son...this is not your place. Only Jesus can see my heart...just as He can see yours.

Now, you are quite welcome to say what you think about me. And I will answer you that, while it makes me sad that you and I cannot be friends, God's opinion of me matters a whole bunch more than yours does.
You cannot give me eternal life.
The way to the Father is through the Son....and no man comes to the Son unless the Father draws him.
Therefore, God's Word matters a whole lot more than Mjrhealth's version.