The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

I've not added anything. if you've concluded that a person can't stop believing you'll need to prove that from Scripture. The logical thing is that I can stop believing anything I want to. If you're gonna claim that this one subject is beyond that you'll need to prove it.

However, as I said in the PM's this is getting ridiculous and is why I usually don't get into these debates. You guys haven't attempted an argument you've simply hurled passages from which you've inferred the doctrine. That's not a logical argument. It seems it just pages of tossing passages back and forth. That gets nowhere. If your doctrine was in the Scriptures you would be able to make a logical argument for it as we saw in the discussion about what happens when people die. That doctrine is in the Scriptures and can be laid out and shown.

You simply don't accept the Word of God in this area. We are sealed until redemption Eph 4:30. This passage is god-breathed from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Barrd]

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

????

Same rain, on either patch of earth, yet one brings forth good things...the other not so much.
Same spirit...one heart brings forth good fruit...another, not so much....

 

[ATP]

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

????

Same rain, on either patch of earth, yet one brings forth good things...the other not so much.
Same spirit...one heart brings forth good fruit...another, not so much....

It's about nonbelieving jews who did not have the root of salvation.

 

[Barrd]

Where is your scripture to prove this??


You're basing your proof off an allegory. Lord help us.


No, there is no "however". You're adding to scripture Butch.

So, why did Jesus exhort them to "continue in my love"?
Doesn't that imply the distinct possibility that they could not continue in His love?

 

[Barrd]

It's about nonbelieving jews who did not have the root of salvation.

Could you show me where the writer says this is only for "unbelieving Jews"?

 

[ATP]

So, why did Jesus exhort them to "continue in my love"?
Doesn't that imply the distinct possibility that they could not continue in His love?

no better than proving your theories off a poem. :lol:

Could you show me where the writer says this is only for "unbelieving Jews"?

Hebrews is a jewish book Barrd.

 

[Barrd]

ATP, can a saved believer sin and still expect to go to heaven?
Can he commit murder, for instance? Rape? Can he molest little children...even continue doing this for years...and still expect heaven?
Can a "gay couple" continue in their sexual union, and still go to heaven?

Any OSASer...can you answer this for me, please?

 

[ATP]

ATP, can a saved believer sin and still expect to go to heaven?
Can he commit murder, for instance? Rape? Can he molest little children...even continue doing this for years...and still expect heaven?
Can a "gay couple" continue in their sexual union, and still go to heaven?

Any OSASer...can you answer this for me, please?

What is the difference in a believer doing those things vs Hitler believing on His death bed?

 

[Barrd]

no better than proving your theories off a poem. :lol:


Hebrews is a jewish book Barrd.

Did you know that the first Christians were Jewish?
I've even heard rumors that Christ Himself was a Jew. Born of a Jewish virgin, or so the story goes.
Paul was a Jew, wasn't he? I seem to recall him saying something about "in Christ there is no Jew or Greek"...something like that. Also "no male or female".
Most of the Bible is a "Jewish book."
So, what's your point?

 

[Barrd]

What is the difference in a believer doing those things vs Hitler believing on His death bed?

So, a person who is "saved" can commit the most vile sins...but because he said a few pretty church words, God will overlook those heinous crimes...He will not hear the cries of those children.
Is that what you are telling me, ATP?

 

[ATP]

Did you know that the first Christians were Jewish?
I've even heard rumors that Christ Himself was a Jew. Born of a Jewish virgin, or so the story goes.
Paul was a Jew, wasn't he? I seem to recall him saying something about "in Christ there is no Jew or Greek"...something like that. Also "no male or female".
Most of the Bible is a "Jewish book."
So, what's your point?

My point was in my first post that you ignored. 528.

 

[ATP]

So, a person who is "saved" can commit the most vile sins...but because he said a few pretty church words, God will overlook those heinous crimes...He will not hear the cries of those children.
Is that what you are telling me, ATP?

Are you telling me that God ignores people on their death bed?

 

[Barrd]

My point was in my first post that you ignored. 528.

First of all, I didn't ignore that. I answered it.
In fact, I may do a poem about the two soils and the rain that falls on both...though probably not.

But what in the world does that have to do with the fact that most of the Bible is a "Jewish book"????
ATP...are you a child of Abraham?

 

[Barrd]

Are you telling me that God ignores people on their death bed?

So, someone who has been "saved" may do these filthy things all of his life...but if he confesses on his deathbed, then he can still go to heaven?
I'm skeptical...

But...what if he dies unexpectedly? Suppose the kid he's been raping has an angry Daddy who shoots him through the heart? (Of course, Dad has been "saved", too, so he's good to go.)
No death bed confession, no repentance....tough luck, I guess?

 

[ATP]

First of all, I didn't ignore that. I answered it.
In fact, I may do a poem about the two soils and the rain that falls on both...though probably not.

But what in the world does that have to do with the fact that most of the Bible is a "Jewish book"????
ATP...are you a child of Abraham?

Those people did not have the root of salvation. Do you know what the means

So, someone who has been "saved" may do these filthy things all of his life...but if he confesses on his deathbed, then he can still go to heaven?
I'm skeptical...

But...what if he dies unexpectedly? Suppose the kid he's been raping has an angry Daddy who shoots him through the heart? (Of course, Dad has been "saved", too, so he's good to go.)
No death bed confession, no repentance....tough luck, I guess?

My point is, is that saving faith is saving faith. Whether you get saved and commit sin, or commit sin then get saved on your death bed. It's all the same to God. We are only believing once.

 

[Barrd]

Those people did not have the root of salvation. Do you know what the means

What the passage actually says;

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They were "enlightened".
They had "tasted of the heavenly gift".
They were "made partakers of the the Holy Ghost".
They had "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come."

Now, how do you get that "they did not have the root of salvation"...

 

[justaname]

To continue...

Is God attempting to save those He knows will not be saved?

No. Only those who are saved by God obtain any form of salvation. Salvation is not something to be had and then lost. Those who profess belief and then apostate never posses salvation to begin with because God never gave growth to their faith.

Then to the question Barrd is asking...

Can you sin your way out of salvation?
My initial response is Christian believers walk in the Spirit avoiding sin. Your hypothetical scenarios of molestation, rape, and murder with an unrepentant heart is uncharacteristic of a believer and does not flow with the divine nature. Thus it follows this type of fruit would bring into question the faith of the professing believer.

Yet every sin is deliberate, as when we sin we are seeking our desire to serve our selves over serving God. We miss the mark so to speak. When we sin we have a High Priest interceding on our behalf. Jesus' death atoned for the sins of humanity. Scripture reveals only the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit as unpardonable.

Again the question of apostasy. Here the recanting believer was never being saved by God, nor would I say they were ever sealed by the Holy Spirit. What they fall from is fellowship of the saints, not the salvation of God.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Upon belief we are sealed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. We do not come into judgement and receive eternal life. We pass from death into life. We are no longer under wrath and we become children of God.

 

[Barrd]

My point is, is that saving faith is saving faith. Whether you get saved and commit sin, or commit sin then get saved on your death bed. It's all the same to God. We are only believing once.

Your point is that these people can commit the most vile and disgusting of sin...but as long as they said a pretty little sinner's prayer, it doesn't matter.
And you really believe that?

 

[ATP]

What the passage actually says;

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They were "enlightened".
They had "tasted of the heavenly gift".
They were "made partakers of the the Holy Ghost".
They had "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come."

Now, how do you get that "they did not have the root of salvation"...

None of the terms used here are used anywhere else in scripture to refer to salvation. Nor are any of the normal New Testament terms and synonyms for salvation used in this passage. Nowhere is it stated that these people have been justified, sanctified, born again, regenerated, or saved. No mention is made of faith or of eternal life. Verse 6 does not say that these people cannot be renewed to salvation, but that they cannot be renewed to repentance.

Notice the term "fallen away" here. Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation!

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Heb 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[Barrd]

To continue...

Is God attempting to save those He knows will not be saved?

No. Only those who are saved by God obtain any form of salvation. Salvation is not something to be had and then lost. Those who profess belief and then apostate never posses salvation to begin with because God never gave growth to their faith.

Then to the question Barrd is asking...

Can you sin your way out of salvation?
My initial response is Christian believers walk in the Spirit avoiding sin. Your hypothetical scenarios of molestation, rape, and murder with an unrepentant heart is uncharacteristic of a believer and does not flow with the divine nature. Thus it follows this type of fruit would bring into question the faith of the professing believer.

Yet every sin is deliberate, as when we sin we are seeking our desire to serve our selves over serving God. We miss the mark so to speak. When we sin we have a High Priest interceding on our behalf. Jesus' death atoned for the sins of humanity. Scripture reveals only the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit as unpardonable.

Again the question of apostasy. Here the recanting believer was never being saved by God, nor would I say they were ever sealed by the Holy Spirit. What they fall from is fellowship of the saints, not the salvation of God.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Upon belief we are sealed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. We do not come into judgement and receive eternal life. We pass from death into life. We are no longer under wrath and we become children of God.

That was actually more the answer that I expected. However, it is not outside of the realm of possibility that a man might succumb to a temptation you and I shudder at, especially in the realm of sex.
No, I don't expect a heart that has surrendered to Jesus to indulge in such behavior...but the question had to be asked, so that the answer could be given.
I want you, especially, and others like you, to see and understand just what the OSAS doctrine can and does lead to. Yes...there are people who truly do believe that a saved believer can indulge in these kind of vile and horrible sins...even for years...because they have "eternal security". That alone makes it a very dangerous doctrine.