The depravity of men (and to what degree it goes)

[biggandyy]

It's very Biblical. They will receive less punishment, but salvation is through Christ alone and there is none other on whose name we can trust our eternal soul.

 

[Prentis]

And who applies the blood of Christ... Us, or Christ? It is Christ of course. If he wishes to save them because they have shown love, then they are saved indeed.

Less punishment? The unrighteous are destroyed. What is less? Half destroyed? It is those who claim Christ but do not obey him that will live, but be put to shame. Those who did not know him but loved their neighbor will not be held to a standard that they didn't receive power to fulfill; Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

For those who die without knowing the gospel, mercy is given to those who loved. Loving your neighbor, who you see, is the fulfillement of the law. Thus the men who loved those arouned them and showed mercy will receive mercy. They are of the second ressurection and attain to life.

Those who do come to the knowledge of truth in this life are then called to walk according to the level they have attained. We are to walk by the grace given us, so that we would be counted as faithful servants and not cast out. Those who do this, and overcome, will rule and reign with Christ.

Got some scriptures? I have plenty of scriptures that conflict with your premise.

 

[biggandyy]

Christ does not apply His Blood, the Father does.

And Romans 3: 22-24 is all the Bible I need to justify my response to mere men...

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Who have sinned? All.
How is sin atoned for (receive Righteousness)? Through faith in Christ to ALL WHO BELIEVE.
How is that atonement allotted (who received salvation)? All are justified freely by [God's] grace through the redemption that came by CHRIST.

What is the common element here? The ONLY way into salvation is through Christ. It is a simple process to absorb. All other verses that can be applied as refutation are either out of context, misunderstood, or simply disingenuous obfuscations.

 

[Vengle]

Does the sin nature change when we are Baptised?

XVI. Of Sin after Baptism.
Not every deadly sin willingly committed after Baptism is sin against the Holy Ghost, and unpardonable. Wherefore the grant of repentance is not to be denied to such as fall into sin after Baptism. After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from grace given, and fall into sin, and by the grace of God we may arise again, and amend our lives. And therefore they are to be condemned, which say, they can no more sin as long as they live here, or deny the place of forgiveness to such as truly repent.

39 Articles of religion

I would certainly hope that you see that the point of what you said there is to allow us to follow the example of Christ (stumbling like toddlers admittedly as we mature) but for the purpose of working sins nature out of us.

If you do not get that you will waste your opportunity and be found naked and ashamed at his coming again.

And even if you yet (despite the way you claim that we will always have that sin nature in us while alive in this flesh) actually do what is necessary for you to work that sin nature out, your words will confuse many who will then not.

That you must work that will of the flesh out of you is what Philippians 2:12 means.

1 Corinthians 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Are you able in the next verse to see that that sin nature must change (be past as in gone and done with)?

Ephesians 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Any who hang onto the sin nature are children of wrath.

That sin nature is what makes them to be so.

That is what Prentis is telling you. Will you keep being too wise to listen?

 

[Prentis]

Got some scriptures? I have plenty of scriptures that conflict with your premise.

[sup]4[/sup] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [sup]6[/sup] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[sup]11[/sup] Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [sup]12[/sup] And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. [sup]13[/sup] The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15[/sup] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is NOT the judgment of the saints, since it already occured, and yet some are written in the book of life, ANOTHER BOOK. Not the Lamb's book of life. :)

 

[biggandyy]

I don't see anywhere in your verses where anyone was included in the Lambs Book of life from gathering at that throne. You may try to infer that but the text does not support that inference.

 

[Vengle]

I don't see anywhere in your verses where anyone was included in the Lambs Book of life from gathering at that throne. You may try to infer that but the text does not support that inference.

We can gather to the throne even with only imputed righteousness on the basis of faith in the shed blood of Christ if we are one of the under priests. Otherwise we gather to the temple which is Christ and those under priests.

But have you ever thought about how in the picture of the temple it was only the under priests who gained direct access to God along with the high priest when the death of Jesus rent that inner most curtain between the holy and the most holy?

Those in the courtyard of the Jews did not even gain access to the holy.

And the court yard of the Gentiles being separated from the court yard of the Jews represented the dividing wall that Ephesians 2:14 says Jesus also tore down.

But no where are we told that the curtain dividing the courtyard of the Jews from the holy was ever torn down. That is because to get into the holy as an under priest you must be specially chose, elected of God.

There are reasons for all of this.

 

[biggandyy]

Priests??? Are we all not priests? 1Pet 2:5

 

[Vengle]

Priests??? Are we all not priests? 1Pet 2:5

Your are 100% correct that that we all offer spiritual sacrifices.

But go back to your knowledge of Israel.

(1) All of the people could offer sacrifices based only upon their observing to be ceremonially clean so as to be permitted to enter the temple.

(2) Then they gave that sacrifice to the under priests to offer on their behalf.

Is that not a holy nation offering spiritual sacrifices per 1 Peter 2:5?

Did not that nation, though not all priests, have an holy priesthood?

Is not such a nation that is ceremonially clean and has access to God through His holy elected priesthood to offer sacrifices acceptable to God also in its entirety a holy nation?

Look at the picture God gave you.

Stop trying to create your own picture.

Be grateful the wall was torn down between the Gentiles and the Jews so that all might also be part of that spiritual nation.

Maybe this will also help: What does it mean that we give our spiritual sacrifices to the under priests to offer? It means that we support the office and the duties of those priests. Thus we are a nation of those priests for those priests, all to the glory of God.

Not all are Christ's brothers but they are.

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow (firstfruits), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

 

[biggandyy]

Sorry, a Baptist distinctive is the Priesthood of All Believers. Call it a foible if you must, but I am as much a Priest of God as MSGR. Hrebbin was when he was alive and I was a Byzantine back in the day.

 

[Vengle]

Sorry, a Baptist distinctive is the Priesthood of All Believers. Call it a foible if you must, but I am as much a Priest of God as MSGR. Hrebbin was when he was alive and I was a Byzantine back in the day.

I certainly do not mind for you to believe as you desire but you should know that just as it speaks of Christ having brothers he also after the manner of Adam (before Adam sinned) is the "everlasting father" of many more children than he has brothers.

Amen?

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Matthew 20:2 "and when he had agreed with the labourers for a peny a day he sent them into his vineyard."

 

[Prentis]

I don't see anywhere in your verses where anyone was included in the Lambs Book of life from gathering at that throne. You may try to infer that but the text does not support that inference.

Rev. 21

[sup]22[/sup] But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [sup]23[/sup] The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[sup][j][/sup] for the glory[sup][[/sup] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. [sup]24[/sup] And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. [sup]25[/sup] Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). [sup]26[/sup] And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. [sup]27[/sup] But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[sup] [/sup]an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Speaking of the new Jerusalem here, only those in the Lamb's book of life enter. Now we go back to Rev. 20, verse 12, this is AFTER the saints have been ressurected and are ALREADY with Christ, judging the nations.

[sup]12[/sup] And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

This is the judgment of the nations then, also seen in Matthew 25.

What does that mean? We are not called to just be saved, but we are called to glory, we are called to conformity to Christ and ruling and reigning with him... If we overcome! On the other hand, those are not called to this are called to love their neighbour, whether they understand this or not.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I have found it a common delusion today to believe we are so depraved we cannot even do what is right, as the publican or good Samaritan did. It is a belief that says "I can do nothing, nothing, nothing, thus any striving is foolishness". Subtly, this is used to deny the necessity of growth in Christ.

Yet the word says....

12 Sow for yourselves righteousness;
Reap in mercy;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the LORD,
Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.

We sow, we break up the ground of our heart, we seek...

Do you remember when you first said NO to your Dad or MUM in response to something they said or instructed you to do. Or the first time you threw a tantrum or complained etc?

 

[Foreigner]

At the same time, sola scriptura teaches that the Bible only has one meaning!

-- Aspen, why have you chosen to change the definition of Sola Scriptura?
You are recorded all over this board as saying the that Sola Scriptura is nothing more than believing that there is nothing outside the scriptures that are to be used to seek/find/follow/obey God. Why the sudden change of definition?

No, those are my sentiments but phrased in a way to illicit an emotional response by the hoy-paloy... i.e.

-- Andy, as Moderator aren't you supposed to be above this?

Doesn't trying to "illicit an emotional response from the hoy-paloy" run contrary to your role here?

What happens if the 'emotional response' you illicit is less than positive and possibly even offensive?

Are you then in any position to criticize them in your position as a Moderator? After all - by your own admission - you yourself had just 'trolled' for it.

It was my impression that your role required you to be above the actions of the rest of us 'riff raff.'

 

[biggandyy]

Maybe, but as a moderator I also can exercise my responsibility as a common contributor to the discussion. My trolling always has a deeper purpose, it's not just being mean to be mean. Oft times that purpose is left undiscovered, but that is ok. Not everyone has my sense of humor or sense of intellectual acumen with the Word.

 

[jiggyfly]

Maybe, but as a moderator I also can exercise my responsibility as a common contributor to the discussion. My trolling always has a deeper purpose, it's not just being mean to be mean. Oft times that purpose is left undiscovered, but that is ok. Not everyone has my sense of humor or sense of intellectual acumen with the Word.

Now that's funny!

 

[chap]

'We're all sinners' is true in the sense that all have sinned, and none are righteous like GOD. :)

But the thing is that there is power available in God to be like him, that's what is called grace. If we draw near by faith, we can tap into it. If we surrender ourselves to God, he is faithful to transform us into his image, to make us like him.

Blessings...

How can we draw near to him, that is God when the Bible declares we are spiritual dead. As far as surrending to God why would we want to do that ? Especially when we are liken unto the seven women in Is. 4:1, oh sure we may want to do this but not on God's terms but rather are own terms.

 

[KingJ]

The sin nature, we did not choose, but were born in it. Then, we can either call it as it is, and as the publican, see the evil of this nature and it's ways, or we can love it, and roll in it like pigs in the dung!

Amen. Not by God's doing either. Adam is to thank. But, were any of us in his shoes, we would have done likewise. Just a matter of time.

If God made us with a sin nature, He would be guilty of evil. He is not evil, He is good. We however have accountability from higher intelligence. With that and God's abililty to never be partial comes our ability to freely choose.