The curious case of John 5:4

[St. SteVen]

An inspired copyist?

Only God knows.

Agree.
But that's NOT what our fundamentalist friends mean when they claim the the whole Bible is God-breathed, every word.
Was it written* by God, or by humankind?

* written = compiled, voted on, canonized, translated, debated, and published. And then revised and paraphrased and... on it goes.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 5:4 Some manuscripts include here, wholly or in part, paralyzed—and they waited for the moving of the waters. 4 From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease they had.

This was a Jewish myth, not a teaching that came from their Scripture….we have to remember the state of Judaism when Jesus walked the earth. He castigated the religious leaders at every opportunity for feeding the people what was their own traditions substituted for Scripture. (Matt 23; Matt 15:7-9)
There is no mention of copyists being “inspired”….only the author was granted that privilege. The diligence of the copyist was a huge responsibility, and so not just every word was counted, but every letter to make sure that the copy was an authentic replica of the original.

The Talmud became the Jewish version of a catechism…..not relying on Scripture, but on the teachings of apostate men to furnish beliefs that never came from the true God.…they came from the god of this world who can “blind minds”, not just eyes. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Christendom is just a mirror image of first century Judaism…..influenced by the same enemy of God from the beginning. He wanted worship and would get it in any way he could, because any worship of God that was not based on his word, was invalid and went to the pretender by default. The closer it was to the original the better his deception. But it’s like a glass of pure water with a few drops of poison added, compared to a large dose of it….it has the same effect.…if a few drops is enough to kill you.

the question is about what that means to the veracity of our Bible.
We have been told that the Bible is God-breathed and every word is inspired.
If that's true, why would some Bibles include John 5:4 and some Bible remove it?
There's a human element that needs to be acknowledged here.

Yes, the original is “inspired of God”…but the copies were not, even though great care was needed to preserve their transmission.
Translations are a whole other story…..men can certainly interfere with any translation, but only a keen Bible student will be able to pick the flaws.

The “wheat” still exist in the world, separated out from the “weeds” in this “time of the end”….
Unless we find the “wheat” and are fed spiritually by them, what is fed to the weeds to make them grow will simply produce a bumper crop of weedy Christians, never able to come to any consensus about much at all.

God’s spirit does not divide his people…it unifies them as one body. (1 Cor 1:10) If the body is dismembered, then God‘s spirit is not present. This is why “few” will be found on “the road to life”.…(Matt 7:13-14)…and why the “many” traveling down the only other road there is, will be offering their excuses to the judge on judgment day. (Matt 7:21-23) He will not accept them.

 

[RLT63]

I agree, but the question is about what that means to the veracity of our Bible.
We have been told that the Bible is God-breathed and every word is inspired.
If that's true, why would some Bibles include John 5:4 and some Bible remove it?
There's a human element that needs to be acknowledged here.

[

Actually only the originals were inspired and all we have are copies. There is some disagreement about which copies are the best. Modern versions favor the Alexandrian texts because they are older, but is older better?
They often leave out things that are in the Majority (Byzantine) texts.
So were these things added later or are there mistakes in the Alexandrian texts?
Modern scholars say they were added later, King James advocates say the Alexandrian texts are corrupted but none of this brings into question the inspiration of the originals

 

[Johann]

Different culture.
They just never laid their hands on a bible.
It wasn't made important to them.
Only JWs had bibles until just recently.
Maybe not too intelligent....what would they have understood of it anyway?
No bible studies in church.

Need more?

Not everyone that believes owns a bible.
(things have changed a bit - but the ones that had no bible were still saved persons if they met God's conditions).

Guess we can ditch the "study to show yourself approved--parts" and faith cometh by hearing?
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17, NKJV)

In Greek, the phrase "hearing by the word of God" is conveyed through akoe (ἀκοή), which signifies not just casual hearing but attentive listening, indicating a form of receptive, engaged hearing where the message-the gospel, in this case-is both understood and believed. This "hearing" isn't merely an auditory experience but rather an engagement with the truth of God’s word that brings faith to life within the listener.

Through this, Paul emphasizes that genuine faith comes from being exposed to the truth of Christ, conveyed through preaching, teaching, or reading Scripture, meaning faith is initiated and sustained by the active word of God, illuminated by the Holy Spirit.


J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually only the originals were inspired and all we have are copies. There is some disagreement about which copies are the best. Modern versions favor the Alexandrian texts because they are older, but is older better?
They often leave out things that are in the Majority (Byzantine) texts.
So were these things added later or are there mistakes in the Alexandrian texts?
Modern scholars say they were added later, King James advocates say the Alexandrian texts are corrupted but none of this brings into question the inspiration of the originals

Since the Alexandrian Texts are the oldest manuscript copies, it seems fair to conclude that the variants found in the Byzantine Texts were added later. King James advocates reject anything that isn't in the "Authorized" version. Even to the point of accusing modern translations of REMOVING verses from the Bible. As if the KJV is some sort of standard to measure modern translation against. The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956. The publishing date of the KJV was 1611. A marvel for its time, but...

[

 

[St. SteVen]

In Greek, the phrase "hearing by the word of God" is conveyed through akoe (ἀκοή), which signifies not just casual hearing but attentive listening, indicating a form of receptive, engaged hearing where the message-the gospel, in this case-is both understood and believed. This "hearing" isn't merely an auditory experience but rather an engagement with the truth of God’s word that brings faith to life within the listener.

Not "merely an auditory experience..." ???
Modern Christianity is so far off the mark that
ACTUAL auditory hearing of God's voice has been replaced
by reading the Bible and hearing preachers and teachers
give their opinions about the Bible.

John 10:27 NIV
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

[ cc: @GodsGrace

 

[Ritajanice]

Agree.
But that's NOT what our fundamentalist friends mean when they claim the the whole Bible is God-breathed, every word.
Was it written* by God, or by humankind?

* written = compiled, voted on, canonized, translated, debated, and published. And then revised and paraphrased and... on it goes.

[

Apparently, it was written under divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he spoke through them, therefore written by man...who are fallible .

What does show ourselves approved mean?

I’ve never understood that scripture?

 

[Ritajanice]

ACTUAL auditory hearing of God's voice has been replaced
by reading the Bible and hearing preachers and teachers
give their opinions about the Bible

Very true.imo..we know God from within our heart ...not through some religious teaching....heart knowledge I believe is lacking in some churches today.imo.

 

[Johann]

Not "merely an auditory experience..." ???
Modern Christianity is so far off the mark that
ACTUAL auditory hearing of God's voice has been replaced
by reading the Bible and hearing preachers and teachers
give their opinions about the Bible.

John 10:27 NIV
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

[ cc: @GodsGrace

Close your Bible, you don't need it-plenty voices out there.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

John 10:27 NIV
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Amen! We listen from within our heart to the Spirit ,witnessing Gods truth to our heart, it still has to be checked out with scripture does it not ?
..
Not everything needs to be checked with scripture though.

For instance, I often feel prompted to good deeds for my neighbours...things like ,shopping, gardening, spending time with the lonely...I often speak about my faith to non Christians...showing the kindness of God..being kind in words..showing dignity, respect for others.the list is endless.

 

[St. SteVen]

Apparently, it was written under divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he spoke through them, therefore written by man...who are fallible .

The original manuscripts (autographs) contained inspired words. (not every word, as we have been told)
Those originals are long gone. Old manuscripts fall apart over time. Many were lost or destroyed.
All we have now are copies, of copies, of copies, of copies... which show a wide variety of textual variants.
It is the job of human translators to make determinations about what goes in the Bible and what stays out.
They are required to choose between:
- The oldest and most original copies
- The copies that are the most numerous (Majority Text)
- The copies that follow established Christian doctrine the closest (Textus Receptus)

Which would you choose?

What does show ourselves approved mean?

I’ve never understood that scripture?

It means to do your own homework, to the best of your abilities.
God will honor your best efforts.

I would bear in mind that some are better equipped to do this than others.
Those who excel in this area should probably be teachers, or pastors.

Therefore, don't beat yourself up if you fear that you don't measure up against others.
Seek to be APPROVED by God, not by humans. (my best advice)

2 Timothy 2:15 NIV
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,
a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

[

 

[Johann]

Not everything needs to be checked with scripture though.

Error.

For instance, I often feel prompted to good deeds for my neighbours...things like ,shopping, gardening, spending time with the lonely...I often speak about my faith to non Christians...showing the kindness of God..being kind in words..showing dignity, respect for others.the list is endless.

Don’t direct unbelievers’ attention to yourself or to how “good” you are. Instead, reveal the Messiah through both the way you live AND the written Word (D’varim).

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Amen! We listen from within our heart to the Spirit ,witnessing Gods truth to our heart, it still has to be checked out with scripture does it not ?
..
Not everything needs to be checked with scripture though.

For instance, I often feel prompted to good deeds for my neighbours...things like ,shopping, gardening, spending time with the lonely...I often speak about my faith to non Christians...showing the kindness of God..being kind in words..showing dignity, respect for others.the list is endless.

Yes.
Those godly deeds are an outflow of the Spirit within. Go with the flow.
Keep up the good work, sister.

This scripture below is often overlooked.
God has prepared good works for each individual that we discover as we live in Christ.
You are currently walking in those good works prepared for you in advance.

Ephesians 2:10 NIV
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Error.

Don’t direct unbelievers’ attention to yourself or to how “good” you are. Instead, reveal the Messiah through both the way you live AND the written Word (D’varim).

J.

@Ritajanice

I find it interesting that I bring encouragement and uplifting support to you
while this poster has nothing but criticism and condemnation. (legalism)

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

[

 

[Johann]

@Ritajanice

I find it interesting that I bring encouragement and uplifting support to you
while this poster has nothing but criticism and condemnation. (legalism)

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

[

Checkmate.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes.
Those godly deeds are an outflow of the Spirit within. Go with the flow.
Keep up the good work, sister.

This scripture below is often overlooked.
God has prepared good works for each individual that we discover as we live in Christ.
You are currently walking in those good works prepared for you in advance.

Ephesians 2:10 NIV
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[

Of course , I don’t tell anyone about my goods deeds, on earth ,just an example of how we do not have to consult our Bible on every matter.

Amen ! Brother, we are his handiwork ,which should be reflected in our hearts, I agree with you here 100%.

 

[Ritajanice]

Just for reference, I never said any of what’s been quoted below.

I may have quoted the scripture..the rest,are not my words...thank you.
.
@Ritajanice

I find it interesting that I bring encouragement and uplifting support to you
while this poster has nothing but criticism and condemnation. (legalism)




I may have quoted this scripture below, not sure,

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

 

[Ritajanice]

The original manuscripts (autographs) contained inspired words. (not every word, as we have been told)
Those originals are long gone. Old manuscripts fall apart over time. Many were lost or destroyed.
All we have now are copies, of copies, of copies, of copies... which show a wide variety of textual variants.
It is the job of human translators to make determinations about what goes in the Bible and what stays out.
They are required to choose between:
- The oldest and most original copies
- The copies that are the most numerous (Majority Text)
- The copies that follow established Christian doctrine the closest (Textus Receptus)

Which would you choose?


It means to do your own homework, to the best of your abilities.
God will honor your best efforts.

I would bear in mind that some are better equipped to do this than others.
Those who excel in this area should probably be teachers, or pastors.

Therefore, don't beat yourself up if you fear that you don't measure up against others.
Seek to be APPROVED by God, not by humans. (my best advice)

2 Timothy 2:15 NIV
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,
a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

[

It can also mean imo, to show the Love Of God from with in our own hearts, shew thy self approved to Gods word, doesn’t imo ,mean intellectual knowledge....showing ourselves approved by Living a heart that wants to please God....he’s not interested in all this intellectual knowledge. He’s looking deep within our heart.

Therefore show yourself approved and live by his word.which is, in his Love, respect, show Jesus fruit from within us...never pay an insult with another insult, walk in the Spirit...the list is endless...those who continually insult need prayer, they are in the flesh, we’ve all been there.,all imo of course.

Walk in the Spirit I say..that’s the place you will find true peace/ joy and happiness..

 

[RLT63]

Since the Alexandrian Texts are the oldest manuscript copies, it seems fair to conclude that the variants found in the Byzantine Texts were added later. King James advocates reject anything that isn't in the "Authorized" version. Even to the point of accusing modern translations of REMOVING verses from the Bible. As if the KJV is some sort of standard to measure modern translation against. The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956. The publishing date of the KJV was 1611. A marvel for its time, but...

[

Yes and the King James Version is based on the Textus Receptus which is not the same as the majority text, but mostly agrees with it.
And I find it ridiculous to say that the KJV is inspired (even the mistakes in it) but if you ever talk to those who believe it they are quite convinced

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

Love this,Amen!..as you know, a lot of what you post, resonates with my spirit, you are very much valued on the forum.. @St. SteVen .

As is everyone else valued..we all have fall outs, never the less , let’s continue with love/ dignity / respect..which is very pleasing to our God.