The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

Good day my friend.. May God Bless you ..In Jesus Name!..Amen!

And you also. Goodnight.

 

[Matthias]

Do you know God in your heart?

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

“The Bible contradicts itself” - a position held and promoted by some members - would not help a person who is struggling with the reliability of the Bible.

 

[Lambano]

“The Bible contradicts itself” - a position held and promoted by some members - would not help a person who is struggling with the reliability of the Bible.

Maybe; maybe not.

If the young man needed someone who's been through the battle and has honestly come to the conclusion that the Bible is a flawed testimony to Jesus Christ but still can trust Christ, then that person may be the right man for the job. But if the person needs to rebuild the fallen structures of Fundamentalist inerrancy, then God needs to send someone else.

This is why I answered the way I did. In this particular case, God sent you. And for the young man's sake, I praise God that He did.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

Discussion questions: - Is it even possible that the Bible could contradict itself? - Why would that be impossible? - If it did contradict itself, would that be bad for the Bible? - Does the Bible promise not to contradict itself? - Would it be harmful to your faith if the Bible was found to be...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Eternally Grateful]

“The Bible contradicts itself” - a position held and promoted by some members - would not help a person who is struggling with the reliability of the Bible.

To me, this is the one subject that makes me believe the Bible is the word of God. And should help us all

if we believe the Bible is the word of God. And is apart from the fact it is interpreted the best it can from its origional language. Then we should believe there is no contradiction

so when we see what appears a contradiction. We should study hard. And resolve the appear at contradiction. When we come to the view that they no longer contradict. Most likely. We have the proper interpretation. if there remains a contradiction. We should deduce that we are not interpreting one of the psssages correctly and thus have the need to keep studying to resolve it

Or. We have to think the Bible is flaw… and in this case/ the Bible should and can not be trusted

 

[Lambano]

Or. We have to think the Bible is flaw… and in this case/ the Bible should and can not be trusted

Or... If God is sovereign (and He is), then God put those added (redacted?) verses and contradictions in there intentionally. And I can guess why He would do that. (And it's not to test our faithfulness.)

 

[Lambano]

And I still think that all-or-nothing position is silly. Your wife knows your flaws, and still trusts you, right?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Or... If God is sovereign (and He is), then God put those added (redacted?) verses and contradictions in there intentionally. And I can guess why He would do that. (And it's not to test our faithfulness.)

But why would God do this?

This makes literally no sense whatsoever.

I will be honest. I have yet to find any supposed contradiction I could not resolve and bring into agreement. Have you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. That is what happened.



The Muslim in the incident wasn’t a student. If the student who was speaking with the Muslim, attempting to evangelize him, had any conversation with the Muslim about the reliability of the Quran, he didn’t mention it to me.

Right. Not too many students know much about the Qu'ran...neither do I. There's just too much to know about ANYTHING....

The student was a teenager. The way that teenagers typically think was, I’m persuaded, part of the problem.

What about for older persons? More mature in experience and, hopefully, more stable in their thinking.

People, regardless of their age, aren’t always rationale and reasonable in their thinking. If we throw on top of that the very real activity of Satan and the demons, people may become twisted in their thinking.

Of course, this is true. People are not always rational or reasonable in their thinking.
This is one of the reasons that it's GOOD to know what the bible teaches....
A person could be saved without one....but it sure does help to know WHY I believe as I do.
(but, again, not everyone is going to care....unfortunately).

I hear a lot of odd ideas right here on these forums...all of them.
It goes beyond our thinking that I AM RIGHT...
Some doctrine (teachings) could be discussed, but some cannot IMHO.

Then there are those who never really were grounded in their thinking. Their believe in the existence of God is shallow. They haven’t really thought about it all that much. It is just kind of taken for granted. When challenged they aren’t prepared to discuss or defend their belief.

Amen! Luke 8 comes to mind...the parable of the sower.
I see that you mentioned this later in another post to me.
Jesus clearly stated this...
Let alone being able to discuss what they believe or to defend their belief/faith....
I've seen persons leave the faith because of some trouble that comes along.
We should be ready for the trouble BEFORE it happens...
We should understand that we live in this world and we WILL have trouble.
Jesus said He would give us HIS peace....not peace. No peace while we're here, except for HIS peace, and I'm sure
we will all understand this in a different way.

You have "other faith" under your avatar and I don't know of what faith you are...
but theodicy is a problem that we all need to deal with - in one way or another. It's
good to come to some kind of a conclusion before anything that might destroy or damage our faith happens.

I’ve spoken with people who’ve told me they believe in God - but they aren’t sure if he ( orshe) is really active in people’s lives; desists.

I considered this at some point.
It seemed to be possible.
But then why send Jesus?
So, that's out of the question.

No person could ever convince me tomorrow that the entire Bible (or even a portion of it) is a farce.

That's good...but WHAT IF THEY COULD???
Would you still have faith in God?
(BTW, I don't think it's possible that the bible is a farce, so if you prefer not to reply to
a hypothetical, that's fine).

If we aren’t certain that God is the God of the Bible - and how could we be certain if we were somehow convinced that “the entire Bible is a farce”? - wouldn’t that be a reason to pause?

No. IF the entire bible was man-made, full of fables that were told for some reason or other....
why would it mean that God doesn't exist?
God would still HAVE TO exist....
It would be the bible,,,the "fables" that would stop existing.
I don't quite understand how you reason that one would automatically nullify the other.

I hesitate to touch on it here but I will: is there such a thing as a generic God? (This has been the subject of discussion in other threads in the not too distant past. Everyone believes in ”God“ believes in the same “God”?)

Oh, no. No generic God.
Some worship a God that does not exist.
Some believe God is in everything (in a sense He might be) but they mean that He's literally in trees and water, etc.
No. The creator cannot be A PART of the creation...He MUST be outside of it.

I believe that a person could worship the ONE, TRUE GOD...the creator of the universe, and not particularly know much else about Him.
But, yes, there is only One true God.

Those in South America that are worshipping the Pacha Mama that was brought into the Vatican back in '18 or thereabouts...it NOT the one true God.

 

[GodsGrace]

It has to be more than a just a comfort, doesn’t it?

Sure...I stated ALSO a comfort....

 

[GodsGrace]

But why would God do this?

This makes literally no sense whatsoever.

I will be honest. I have yet to find any supposed contradiction I could not resolve and bring into agreement. Have you?

EG,,,,there are contradictions even in the NT.

Let's accept that this is true....I hesitate but could post even links to debates on this,,,besides the fact that I could think of some right now.

OK. So we accept that it's true....there are contradictions in the NT....

WHAT would that do to your faith?
Would you stop believing inGod?
Would you stop trusting HIM?
or would your faith be shattered?

 

[Matthias]

Right. Not too many students know much about the Qu'ran...neither do I. There's just too much to know about ANYTHING....



Of course, this is true. People are not always rational or reasonable in their thinking.
This is one of the reasons that it's GOOD to know what the bible teaches....
A person could be saved without one....but it sure does help to know WHY I believe as I do.
(but, again, not everyone is going to care....unfortunately).

I hear a lot of odd ideas right here on these forums...all of them.
It goes beyond our thinking that I AM RIGHT...
Some doctrine (teachings) could be discussed, but some cannot IMHO.


Amen! Luke 8 comes to mind...the parable of the sower.
I see that you mentioned this later in another post to me.
Jesus clearly stated this...
Let alone being able to discuss what they believe or to defend their belief/faith....
I've seen persons leave the faith because of some trouble that comes along.
We should be ready for the trouble BEFORE it happens...
We should understand that we live in this world and we WILL have trouble.
Jesus said He would give us HIS peace....not peace. No peace while we're here, except for HIS peace, and I'm sure
we will all understand this in a different way.

You have "other faith" under your avatar and I don't know of what faith you are...
but theodicy is a problem that we all need to deal with - in one way or another. It's
good to come to some kind of a conclusion before anything that might destroy or damage our faith happens.


I considered this at some point.
It seemed to be possible.
But then why send Jesus?
So, that's out of the question.

That's good...but WHAT IF THEY COULD???
Would you still have faith in God?
(BTW, I don't think it's possible that the bible is a farce, so if you prefer not to reply to
a hypothetical, that's fine).

No. IF the entire bible was man-made, full of fables that were told for some reason or other....
why would it mean that God doesn't exist?
God would still HAVE TO exist....
It would be the bible,,,the "fables" that would stop existing.
I don't quite understand how you reason that one would automatically nullify the other.

Oh, no. No generic God.
Some worship a God that does not exist.
Some believe God is in everything (in a sense He might be) but they mean that He's literally in trees and water, etc.
No. The creator cannot be A PART of the creation...He MUST be outside of it.

I believe that a person could worship the ONE, TRUE GOD...the creator of the universe, and not particularly know much else about Him.
But, yes, there is only One true God.

Those in South America that are worshipping the Pacha Mama that was brought into the Vatican back in '18 or thereabouts...it NOT the one true God.

Other Faith -> I’m a primitive Christian, an Ante-Nicene Christian, a Jewish monotheist, not a Nicene Christian.

The official definition of Christian adopted by Christianity Board is Nicene.

I initially registered as “Christian” but when a few Nicene Christian’s made an issue out of it I voluntarily changed my registration to “Other Faith”.

The only drawback for me in doing that is losing posting privileges in forums marked “Christians Only”. The Nicene Christians snipe at me from time to time but, for the most part, they don’t come looking for me. It’s been a Win-Win proposition.

P.S.

There are a large number of non-Nicene affirming Christians posting on Christianity Board. They registered as Christian and have the run of the forums. I don’t have an issue with that and my conscience is clear, as I presume theirs are.

 

[Matthias]

Sure...I stated ALSO a comfort....

I’ve known a number of people who have found comfort in the Bible who aren’t Christians and had no interest in, or intention of, becoming Christian.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,,,,there are contradictions even in the NT.

please share one contradiction.

Let's accept that this is true....I hesitate but could post even links to debates on this,,,besides the fact that I could think of some right now.

No i will not accept it as true. If there is a contradiction then the Bible is flawed. Let me know. Because i will burn it, because it is useless.

OK. So we accept that it's true....there are contradictions in the NT....

WHAT would that do to your faith?
Would you stop believing inGod?
Would you stop trusting HIM?
or would your faith be shattered?

There are no contradictions.

if we see a contradiction. Something in our belief system is flawed.

we need to change our belief system, not the Bible..

 

[GodsGrace]

Other Faith -> I’m a primitive Christian, an Ante-Nicene Christian, a Jewish monotheist, not a Nicene Christian.

The official definition of Christian adopted by Christianity Board is Nicene.

I initially registered as “Christian” but when a few Nicene Christian’s made an issue out of it I voluntarily changed my registration to “Other Faith”.

The only drawback for me in doing that is losing posting privileges in forums marked “Christians Only”. The Nicene Christians snipe at me from time to time but, for the most part, they don’t come looking for me. It’s been a Win-Win proposition.

P.S.

There are a large number of non-Nicene affirming Christians posting on Christianity Board. They registered as Christian and have the run of the forums. I don’t have an issue with that and my conscience is clear, as I presume theirs are.

Well Matthias, I must say that I'm a bit prejudiced in this regard....
I DO believe that there has to be some definition for what a Christian is.
I come from a forum that allowed anyone to call themselves a Christian,,,no matter what they believed.
A person could come to different understandings re scripture and some doctrine or other....
but I firmly believe that to be called a Christian a person MUST adhere to the definition of a Christian.
Some take this to mean that it's the equivalent of saying that they're not saved...
NO. A person could be saved even if he has some doctrine wrong - otherwise we're all doomed.
But Christian is a specific belief system and it can't be changed.

So, yes, the drawback is being able to participate in the threads that are for Christians only.
And, yes, I'd say that the Nicene Creed is a good proof statement.

As to those registering as Christian sans following this rule....
well, by default they cannot post on some threads...so it all works out.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’ve known a number of people who have found comfort in the Bible who aren’t Christians and had no interest in, or intention of, becoming Christian.

HOW does a person find comfort in something they don't believe in??!!

LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

please share one contradiction.

No i will not accept it as true. If there is a contradiction then the Bible is flawed. Let me know. Because i will burn it, because it is useless.

There are no contradictions.

if we see a contradiction. Something in our belief system is flawed.

we need to change our belief system, not the Bible..

As you know EG, I'm not here to damage the faith of anyone, which is why I don't "debate" beyond a few posts.
I could share several contradictions, but I'm wont to....for the very reason you state.
No bible burnings on my watch!

But I asked you a hypothetical....
OK, you don't want to respond. Fine.
But did you ever even think about this?

You mean, if I stated 3 contradictions,,,your faith in God would be damaged...
or your faith in the bible? (maybe trust is a better word).

 

[Matthias]

Well Matthias, I must say that I'm a bit prejudiced in this regard....
I DO believe that there has to be some definition for what a Christian is.
I come from a forum that allowed anyone to call themselves a Christian,,,no matter what they believed.
A person could come to different understandings re scripture and some doctrine or other....
but I firmly believe that to be called a Christian a person MUST adhere to the definition of a Christian.
Some take this to mean that it's the equivalent of saying that they're not saved...
NO. A person could be saved even if he has some doctrine wrong - otherwise we're all doomed.
But Christian is a specific belief system and it can't be changed.

So, yes, the drawback is being able to participate in the threads that are for Christians only.
And, yes, I'd say that the Nicene Creed is a good proof statement.

As to those registering as Christian sans following this rule....
well, by default they cannot post on some threads...so it all works out.

Jewish monotheism is an important part of the Messiah’s belief system. To go beyond that may or may not be acceptable to him. I leave it in his hands to decide.

 

[Matthias]

HOW does a person find comfort in something they don't believe in??!!

LOL

Mahatma Gandhi is a famous example.