The Church Is Not Walking In Her Full Authority !!

[Strat]

I'm wondering how I can what I'm trying to say...a little clearer. :)
I was listening to 4 pastors discussing the millennium. One man was trying to prove his point...which was difficult for him since another one (let's call him mike!) was shooting questions at him and not letting him finish a thought. The first fellow (we'll call him Tim!) was trying to point out how scripture did indeed back up his point. Mike kept on jumping in and harping on other verses and points and trying to disprove Tim, in quite an unbiblical way I thought! Finally, Tim blurted out, in the hopes of getting a sentence out that 'if you're right in your conclusion Mike, then I would doubt the inerrancy of scripture!' Which sounds terrible! It's directly opposite to what scripture teaches! But when you know of "Tim" and what he really believes and teaches, you understand better that what he said just came out wrong. His point was this; he doesn't doubt the bible's inerrancy...in fact because he knows it to be 100% infailable then he knows what it says to be true...and to him that was proof enough that the text he was reading meant exactly what it said, with no twisty interpretation needed! So indeed it was easy to see by 'Tim's' other writings that he was not heretical at all, it was a mistake on his part to word something like he did.
My point in all of this has been to draw attention to the fact that people, despite their honest and godly intentions, can just stuff up. I mean, seriously! Let's look at some of the people in scripture, who messed up badly! Abraham trusts God to pack up and leave, but then pimps his wife out! Peter, the leader of the apostles, he messed up so many times that it give hope to all of us!
My exception to your first post was that you were indeed judging Mr Graham. And unless you know him personally, then as you say, it is only God who may make that call. Bad mouthing Mr Graham on a public forum where you don't know the facts and he can't defend himself to all the people reading your judgements, is not a very Christian thing to do.

I have questioned what the man said,if that to you is judging then so be it...i see that you are now judging me...fancy that.

 

[Rach1370]

Sigh. I was, all along, just trying to caution you on leaping to a conclusion on a man you don't know. Apparently my caution fell on prickly ears. Sorry.

 

[Strat]

Conclusions ? i never said anything about Mr Graham's eternal destiny or his past service to the faith,i simply said that what he said at that moment is not Biblical and it wasn't.I do not subscribe to the culture of celebrity that places one man so far above me that i can't question him on what he says about salvation and through who it may be found....that is not Biblical either.....we are told to question and seek the truth for ourselves.

 

[Rach1370]

Billy Grahm has had one to many we are the world,cumbya moments,he has met too many presidents,prime ministers and paid too many visits to the seats of power...he has received too much praise and admiration for his own good,Shular has always been Dr Feelgood and has never been anything else....too much time spent with the world makes one like the world.

Conclusions? Derogatory if nothing else. I only tried to point out that we are no better. One wonders why that inflames you so much? Why you feel you are free to poke at a man, whom, I repeat, you do not know, who cannot defend himself...but how dare I point out that you poked? Oh well, we are each free to live in our own ways, I suppose. I apologise If I offended you...it was not my intent. I often need friends to point out where I mess up. But sorry for assuming.

 

[Hollyrock]

It's a dangerous thing to talk negatively about a fellow Christian. It's better to pray for them and build them up. Besides, it has nothing to do with the original thread.

 

[biggandyy]

It is more dangerous to allow a fellow Christian to believe in folly and error and not correct them.

 

[Strat]

It is more dangerous to allow a fellow Christian to believe in folly and error and not correct them.

Absolutely,it is also dangerous to assume that just because a person claims to be Christian we must be silent before them no matter what they do or say....there is no support in scripture for such a position but as you can see it is the postion of many.

Conclusions? Derogatory if nothing else. I only tried to point out that we are no better. One wonders why that inflames you so much? Why you feel you are free to poke at a man, whom, I repeat, you do not know, who cannot defend himself...but how dare I point out that you poked? Oh well, we are each free to live in our own ways, I suppose. I apologise If I offended you...it was not my intent. I often need friends to point out where I mess up. But sorry for assuming.

I have questioned Billy Graham and you can't tolerate it...i get it already.....total deference or silence...i understand.

It's a dangerous thing to talk negatively about a fellow Christian. It's better to pray for them and build them up. Besides, it has nothing to do with the original thread.

Oh my yes....it's much better to have theives,heretics and con men form the opinions of the general public about the Church and Jesus than for us to police ourselves in anyway,its much better for millions to be led into hell through lies and false doctrine because we are just too doggone nice to question anything their corrupt leaders do.Robert Tilton,Benny Hinn et al are very grateful.

The ironic thing is that i could come here as an ordinary run of the mill Christian with no following or budget for air time...just a commoner we might say...i could say something like beleive in Jesus and send me money and God will make you rich or that Jesus is one of many ways to God or some other such nonsense and most if not all of you would call me on it....who is this rufian,this commoner,this ordinary run of the mill,no money,no fame Christian saying such things...but let it be a celebrity,somebody you have seen on TV and in pictures with famous people and it's all different.

A book has been written entitled "Battle Hymn" by John Scura and Dane Phillips...it has much to say about the role some "Christian" celebrities and pseudo Christian celebrities have played in the evils of our time,the author has many times invited critics to do their own research into what he has written....most just choose to criticise.

 

[HammerStone]

No, I don't think the church has stepped up to the plate. Jesus said this:

John 14:12 HCSB
I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

It is more dangerous to allow a fellow Christian to believe in folly and error and not correct them.

Andy, I'm going to pick on your comment(s) here and prod you for a moment. No hard feelings, it's just I *think* I know you well enough to do this.

See, while essentially you set out with a noble purpose in mind - I have a problem with that logic used in this thread - I think part of the problem with the church is the within the body itself. We spend SO MUCH time arguing over this and that. At what point is it true correction - which the Apostle Paul clearly delineated - and then at what point is their another agenda envolved? Christianity is the only faith where members will absolutely eat their own on a single issue or even a single quote juxtaposed against a lifetime.

To give you a tangible example, let's take the (in)famous Billy Graham quote. Graham spent his entire life teaching about Jesus. He's written books, spoken, and even now has a website where has clearly, time and again, made quotes referencing the exclusivity of Jesus. However, the tendency is to find that one slip-up and parade it around as a devil in disguise. Somehow his decades of ministry about Jesus are really just a ploy to pass off his universalism...

That's not "correcting errors" - that's simply nit-picking. People find one mistake in a person's life - and the degree of this mistake is ambiguous at best (and often a soundbyte or video clip) - and run with it. That's not the kind of correction the Apostle Paul dealt with. The subjects were very clear and egregious violators of what the Bible is about. Take Corinth, for example, where the issue was incest. I don't think we need to sit around and pray or hold a Bible study on incest to determine if one form of incest is worse than the next....it's incest.

Thus, IMHO, is why Jesus said let's all take out the plank before we go after the speck. The problem with becoming involved with the foibles of others is that you lose that time, correcting someone else often irrelevantly, instead of preaching/teaching/talking/demonstrating/etc. Jesus.

I mean, I'm sorry, but I refuse to invalidate a guy's faith based on an ambiguous statement made in his 80s on a random television interview when his life clearly says otherwise. If you can produce statements where Billy Graham clearly maintained (and a positive statement at that, not a negative inference) that Jesus is not the only way, then please, by all means, do so.

 

[Shirley]

I agree with this statement 100% God is faithful to call us and i have heard missionary stories where people knew they had received Christ before they heard!!!! Our God is so awesome and faithful!!!!!

 

[Hollyrock]

I agree with this statement 100% God is faithful to call us and i have heard missionary stories where people knew they had received Christ before they heard!!!! Our God is so awesome and faithful!!!!!

There is a scripture that I think supports this but I can't remember where it is...found it (Romans 2:13-14)

 

[[email protected]]

I used to live in a town where the young Christians believed that they could march around, declare and claim things and they'd get it. After a while the kids, for that's what they really were, theologically illiterate college kids, began to give up and fall away.

I was somewhat older than they were and had seen something of the world they had not, so I watched from the sidelines as they destroyed their own flimsy faith. Periodically I'd interject my thoughts into a conversation and at times stood on a kitchen table or two to expound the details of the error of their ways. It was no coincidence that one of the pastors of the church we attended did the same thing every Wednesday evening. Mostly they didn't listen to either of us. They were of a mind to go their own way singing and dancing and claiming as though God was a spiritual vending machine. Those that survived the vanity fair of self-centered religion acquired a measure of patience and humility. Those that didn't disappeared into the crowd of humanity. I wonder, though, how many still have not learned the lesson of spiritual power that is often sung about; power to victory, power over the devil and power over this world.

Look around folks. It isn't happening. Every statistic you can point to indicates the western church is in decline. If the church were likened to an EverReady battery, then the famous bunny has thumped his drum for the last time. We are witnessing The Great Apostacy predicted by the Bible.

Once upon a time Europe and North America were awash in a sea of Christianity. If everyone wasn't a Christian, there was at least an unspoken accepted convention of religion. Today, as we all know, the sea has gone dry and the country is a spiritual desert with only an oasis of Christian fellowship here and there.

Lest anyone cry out that I am denying the power of religion, let me firmly state that I do not deny it. There is, however, more to it than dropping a quarter into a spiritual vending machine, or a song and dance routine to scare the bad vibes away. I have had to learn the hard way (the best way to remember a lesson, BTW), that righteousness MUST precede the experience of the utilization of power. That means that the church as a group of individual Christians must truly and honestly seek the Kingdom of God always, taking captive every thought which might spring up in rebellion against Christ. A humble attitude and an honest desire to serve, along with a firm reliance upon the hand of providence must precede any battle. If it does, the battle is already won, as in the song. If it doesn't, there will be a terrible humiliating defeat.

If we have seen no apparent exercise of power by the church in this second decade of the twenty first century, its because the church has turned its back upon the gospel and embraced the ways of the enemy by means of liberalization and self-deception. We now see the form of religion but not the power thereof.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft..

 

[Episkopos]

I used to live in a town where the young Christians believed that they could march around, declare and claim things and they'd get it. After a while the kids, for that's what they really were, theologically illiterate college kids, began to give up and fall away.

I was somewhat older than they were and had seen something of the world they had not, so I watched from the sidelines as they destroyed their own flimsy faith. Periodically I'd interject my thoughts into a conversation and at times stood on a kitchen table or two to expound the details of the error of their ways. It was no coincidence that one of the pastors of the church we attended did the same thing every Wednesday evening. Mostly they didn't listen to either of us. They were of a mind to go their own way singing and dancing and claiming as though God was a spiritual vending machine. Those that survived the vanity fair of self-centered religion acquired a measure of patience and humility. Those that didn't disappeared into the crowd of humanity. I wonder, though, how many still have not learned the lesson of spiritual power that is often sung about; power to victory, power over the devil and power over this world.

Look around folks. It isn't happening. Every statistic you can point to indicates the western church is in decline. If the church were likened to an EverReady battery, then the famous bunny has thumped his drum for the last time. We are witnessing The Great Apostacy predicted by the Bible.

Once upon a time Europe and North America were awash in a sea of Christianity. If everyone wasn't a Christian, there was at least an unspoken accepted convention of religion. Today, as we all know, the sea has gone dry and the country is a spiritual desert with only an oasis of Christian fellowship here and there.

Lest anyone cry out that I am denying the power of religion, let me firmly state that I do not deny it. There is, however, more to it than dropping a quarter into a spiritual vending machine, or a song and dance routine to scare the bad vibes away. I have had to learn the hard way (the best way to remember a lesson, BTW), that righteousness MUST precede the experience of the utilization of power. That means that the church as a group of individual Christians must truly and honestly seek the Kingdom of God always, taking captive every thought which might spring up in rebellion against Christ. A humble attitude and an honest desire to serve, along with a firm reliance upon the hand of providence must precede any battle. If it does, the battle is already won, as in the song. If it doesn't, there will be a terrible humiliating defeat.

If we have seen no apparent exercise of power by the church in this second decade of the twenty first century, its because the church has turned its back upon the gospel and embraced the ways of the enemy by means of liberalization and self-deception. We now see the form of religion but not the power thereof.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft..

Oh yeah!! Sad but true!

 

[IanLC]

Many members of the Christian faith and many people in the overall culture of today has lost reverence for God. Many refuse or consider it an inconvenience to study God's word and even members of the faith disrepute the word of God by actions, lifestyle, and denying the infallibility of the holy writ. The Christian faith has turned from Christ centered and Holy Spirit led to personality centerd and program or emotionslitically lead. Emotionalism, Apostasty, Fanaticism, and dryness infiltrate the Christian faith. Mani in the faith are members and not disciples or displined in the faith. Our lifestyles are not living to the standard of Christ. Holiness, righteousness, Godliness, wholeness, and sanctification are being lost due to an increase in sin, carnality and mankind doing what they see fit in their own eyes.

 

[Episkopos]

Many members of the Christian faith and many people in the overall culture of today has lost reverence for God. Many refuse or consider it an inconvenience to study God's word and even members of the faith disrepute the word of God by actions, lifestyle, and denying the infallibility of the holy writ. The Christian faith has turned from Christ centered and Holy Spirit led to personality centerd and program or emotionslitically lead. Emotionalism, Apostasty, Fanaticism, and dryness infiltrate the Christian faith. Mani in the faith are members and not disciples or displined in the faith. Our lifestyles are not living to the standard of Christ. Holiness, righteousness, Godliness, wholeness, and sanctification are being lost due to an increase in sin, carnality and mankind doing what they see fit in their own eyes.

What is missing is the power of a new resurrected life. Many who abandon the faith think it is by human effort that we are to overcome...and after trying are soon overcome themselves.

But the power lies in the cross that kills our old nature...and in the resurrection life of power that overcomes sin automatically. If the church would embrace the cross as an initial LOSS to themselves rather than a self-centered and humanistic tool of an amnesty against prosecution for sins...then we might see a revival of the truth once again.

The man centered gospel is killing the church!

 

[Strat]

Go to Youtube and type in "TV Preachers" and see some of the insane nonsense that the Church has allowed in its name and in the name of Jesus,read the comments of scorn and ridicule against God,Jesus and Christians,some of them so bad and so numerous that the comments for the videos had to be disabled...all because a bunch of pious pew warmers wimpering "judge not" I remember hearing some Christians chastise the Catholic Church for covering up the molestation of young boys by priests....we are not much better it seems.....i have no doubt that the twisted and distorted interpertation of the judge not verses are the Devil's favorite since so much sin and corruption has been accomplished because of it.