The Church Is Not Walking In Her Full Authority !!
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Thanks for clearing that up jiggyfly...there's gotta be at least one that you like though :) How about Billy Graham ?
Thanks for the video biggandy...I did'nt hear what you heard Billy Graham say but what Oprah had to say was very troubling and sad.
Billy Grahm has had one to many we are the world,cumbya moments,he has met too many presidents,prime ministers and paid too many visits to the seats of power...he has received too much praise and admiration for his own good,Shular has always been Dr Feelgood and has never been anything else....too much time spent with the world makes one like the world.
I don't know the situation of Billy saying that Jesus isn't the only way...he may have been tricked, he may just be old and loosing his edge when confronted by crafty questions, or maybe he really did say it, which I find hard to believe, since pretty much everything he's written or spoken has been how Jesus IS the only way.
My point is this: until you guys do even half as much for the Kingdom of God, perhaps you would be better off not trying to tear him down. It's very easy to sit back and judge others, but what are you doing or not doing for the kingdom? What are your mess ups? Have you ever said anything that people leap on and use against you...against God? All of us have...we're just people, just like Billy. God used that man to bring so many people to a real saving relationship with Jesus, and I don't think any of us have the right to pray 'oh God, thank you I'm not like that man.'
My point is this: until you guys do even half as much for the Kingdom of God, perhaps you would be better off not trying to tear him down. It's very easy to sit back and judge others, but what are you doing or not doing for the kingdom? What are your mess ups? Have you ever said anything that people leap on and use against you...against God? All of us have...we're just people, just like Billy. God used that man to bring so many people to a real saving relationship with Jesus, and I don't think any of us have the right to pray 'oh God, thank you I'm not like that man.'
I'm with you...and that is not even what Billy Graham said or would ever say and it is certainly not what he meant...just another example of a sound-bite being mis-understood and spread around as truth.
...if in my life time
Who is tearing him down ? i sense that you are quite a fan of Mr Graham if you are willing to take it to the extreme of people praying and thanking God that they are not like him..... how does one join the club that has as one of its benefits the idea that no one can question anything you say or do...even when your own words spoken by you are there for all to see and hear......do we have some kind of system of credits in modern Christianity that you build up so that after teliing a certain number of truths you can tell a lie every now and then and only those who have the same or more credits than you can question it....God and his word are the only things beyond question.Jesus said that no one comes to the father but through him....this is, as Mr Schuller put it,the 'future of Christianity"......Billy Graham is just a man like you and me and in the salvation by grace alone equation we are equal and anything anyone of us says that is contrary to the word of God is to be questioned without hesiitation,you seem to be saying that we are not fit to touch the hem of Mr Graham's garment...if somone in their lifetime tells just one person the true gospel and that Jesus is the only way they have done more than anyone who has told millions anything else.
Then perhaps you can tell us what he did mean
Who is tearing him down ? i sense that you are quite a fan of Mr Graham if you are willing to take it to the extreme of people praying and thanking God that they are not like him..... how does one join the club that has as one of its benefits the idea that no one can question anything you say or do...even when your own words spoken by you are there for all to see and hear......do we have some kind of system of credits in modern Christianity that you build up so that after teliing a certain number of truths you can tell a lie every now and then and only those who have the same or more credits than you can question it....God and his word are the only things beyond question.Jesus said that no one comes to the father but through him....this is, as Mr Schuller put it,the 'future of Christianity"......Billy Graham is just a man like you and me and in the salvation by grace alone equation we are equal and anything anyone of us says that is contrary to the word of God is to be questioned without hesiitation,you seem to be saying that we are not fit to touch the hem of Mr Graham's garment...if somone in their lifetime tells just one person the true gospel and that Jesus is the only way they have done more than anyone who has told millions anything else.
Then perhaps you can tell us what he did mean
That would just lead to a debate which I do not do. I would rather just agree to disagree
Fan? No, not really. I've heard one of his sermons, and read one of his books. He's a bit before my time, really. But the very clear message in both sermon and book was that Jesus was the only way to the Father. His love for Jesus was very evident.
My point with 'praying that are not like him' was in reference to this verse:
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and looked down on everyone else: 10 “Two men went up to the •temple complex to pray, one a •Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took his standand was praying like this: ‘God, I thank You that I’m not like other people—greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of everything I get.’13 “But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes to heaven but kept striking his chest and saying, ‘God, turn Your wrath from me—a sinner!’14 I tell you, this one went down to his house •justified rather than the other; because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” - Luke 18:9-14
You wrote about Billy Graham:
It sounded very judgemental to me, that's why I brought up the issue that we are all human, all sinners, and we all make mistakes. And that's if he did make a mistake...I cannot imagine the Billy would suddenly stand up and make a claim opposite to the one he has made all his evangelical life. So for you to condemn him for it....well, yes, sounds very judgemental.
Well, that's just ridiculous. No one is saying that one can become of such a club, or that one exists. It is true that leaders and people in the public eye need to be cautious. But it is also a well known fact that because someone is in the public eye that they will be sort after...to trip up, made look foolish and just generally hounded. It behoves us as Christians to read everything we see hear about public figures with an eye open to this fact....both Christian figures as well as secular. People lie, and they will twist, accuse and judge just to get a story or prove a point. The question we need to ask ourselves, is why, after all his evangelical life Billy would declare Jesus as the only way, and then suddenly say not.
And I'm not saying that he, or anyone else, get to get away with a lie if they have told the truth enough. Bit of a leap on your part that. But if you haven't seen other Christians, people with a genuine love for Jesus, who are truly saved and are usually spot on on doctrine, who in the middle of a discussion or debate get tripped up or tongue tided and just said something stupid...well, I'll say you need to look around more. It happens. I've seen brilliant scholars say something that's just down right heretical that they just don't mean! You can see it...they say it and the words play back in their heads and you can almost here the mental groan!
See, the problem and onus here is on the accusers. If Billy has never said anything similar before, in fact if he's spent years saying the opposite, then the anomaly is proof of some trip, folly or momentary lapse....perhaps reason for repentance for Billy, but certainly not reason for others to suddenly announce that 'hanging out with the sinners was pulling him down'.
Exactly, Billy is just a man, and he is liable to make mistakes. Do you have people who harp over your mistakes? Or do you hope that your brothers and sisters in Christ will give you grace, and lead you back to wisdom.
32 And be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ. - Ephesians 4:32
Again, you are reading into a lot of what I've said...and just plain making assumptions. I wonder if the same was done to Mr Graham?
My point is that Billy has NOT spent years telling millions that there are different ways to God. In fact he has spent years telling them the only way is Jesus. Really, I feel your are actually trying to justify yourself here, and justify saying Billy is a heretic. Not cool.
Look, what's I'm trying to say is this: someone posted a video of Billy saying something contrary. You said "Aha! Look what hanging out with sinners has done with him...puffed him up and pulled him down."
But you don't really know. A little while back someone here posted about Rick Warren supporting a muslim mosque and saying some such thing like there are many ways....People jumped on it "oh no, how terrible!" But when you dig into it, he said no such thing. People have twisted his words an intentions. Christians in the public eye are susceptible to ridicule and harassment. The reason we shouldn't jump on board straight away without really digging into what they truly meant? Because by doing so we are helping a secular world beat down someone standing for Jesus...and in the end, it's the name of God that looks bad. That's just not on.
Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that a leader can't come out and say something that is just plain unbiblical...and if he does, he is not excluded from Church or godly authority. But I think, going on Billy's history we must humbly decide to let God and Billy's closest Christian friends deal with the problem (if there truly was one). It does nothing but reflect poorly on us to try and judge something that we just can't know the full details of.
Not that I can think of, I am not an advocate of the christian religious institution. I stopped attending religious liturgy several years ago. :)
I do not worship men,nobody worships me and yes my mistakes are both well remembered and well documented and i even make payments on some of them....denying that Jesus is the only way is not a mistake..there is little wonder why Church discipline is a thing of the past and ther are virtualy no internal regulations in modrn Christianity which has become a free for all of lies given out by celebrity preachers leading millions into Hell telling them about a Jesus that doesn't exist while people stand around with hands oh so piously folded wimpering"don't judge"
I am not judging Mr Graham,God will do that but the way is indeed narrow and the few there be that find it are the ones hearing the truth...truth that is defended at every turn,truth that is more important than any one man,truth that when its compromised is immediately restored without accusations of judging.....and yes,the one speaking aginst the truth restored if they repent.
The Bible tells us to have zero tolerence for error in regard to the Gospel,but in our age of tolerence what the bible has to say doesn't matter,only men matter...does your concern extend beyond Mr Graham's reputation to the people who were watching and listening to what he said ? why hasn't someone come forth to tell what he"realy" meant by waht he said ?
I think what Billy Graham meant was that Jesus IS the only way...but that not everybody who doesn't know Jesus will be condemned out of hand. We will not be judged by our beliefs but by our actions/thoughts/words. So if a man doesn't walk in the power of Christ and yet loves God and his neighbour then God will apply Jesus' blood to him.
In other words salvation is not entirely dependent on white missionaries!!! ;)
In other words salvation is not entirely dependent on white missionaries!!! ;)
In other words we have a choice between works and faith.....both will save us ?...only in modern day America can a man say something in plain veiw and have people apply every conceiveable meaning to it other than what they said...Billy Graham said something that is not Biblical like most of us have at one time or another and despite his celebrity status in this world he is on the same level ground at the foot of the cross that all of us are on and needs to repent.....What did Robert Schuller say....there is a "wideness" in God's mercy....what does the Bible say about the wideness of a certain path.
I didn't know that it was possible to be a Christian and not even know it....wow!!!...i didn't know you could be an unbeleiver and saved...Billy Graham's fans and admirers and dare i say worshipers can spin this anyway they want....no scripture has been used to more effect by the world the flesh and the Devil than "judge not lest ye be judged" it has been turned into a total denial of everything in the Bible and the results are what we have today,it is why this country is circling the drain and the world is spiraling towards total depravity,tyranny the anti Christ....it's ok,Jesus said it would happen so in some way all of this is just fullfilling his words.
We must make a distinction between being a follower of Christ.....in order to become the bride of Christ and rule over the world in the kingdom...and simply surviving (being saved) and being able to scrape by.
It seems so few make any distinction between the righteous and the holy. They are a world apart.
The righteous man is a sinner but realizes he is. He calls it as it is here on earth.
The holy walk with God in perfection and realize the life they live is through Christ. He calls it as it is in heaven.
I am very thankful that i am old enough to remember the old country preachers that relied on their Bibles, that never went to Seminary and were local farmers and working men during the week..".repent and be saved" they said....."repent of your sins and turn to Jesus" without a thousand and one interpertations for every word and debating over what sin was and wasn't denying parts they didn't like or agree with...no infallible celebrity preachers with their legions of loyal followers....in this case its good to be old.
I read about the disciples. men who where religious in the begiining, didnt understand Christ, where lost for a time , then Jesus showed Himself to them, to prove all that He said was true, then they where led by the Holy Spirit, just as we are supposed to be, by we love following men. Oh how far we have fallen, given up the freedom in Christ the Truth that is given through the Holy spirit, all for religion and the lies of men. The harlot church, that which belongs to the world, mens religion has no place in God, that which is built with mens hands has no authority cept that given to it by men. Christ is coming with His Church then teh world will see, there is no comparison.
I'm wondering how I can what I'm trying to say...a little clearer. :)
I was listening to 4 pastors discussing the millennium. One man was trying to prove his point...which was difficult for him since another one (let's call him mike!) was shooting questions at him and not letting him finish a thought. The first fellow (we'll call him Tim!) was trying to point out how scripture did indeed back up his point. Mike kept on jumping in and harping on other verses and points and trying to disprove Tim, in quite an unbiblical way I thought! Finally, Tim blurted out, in the hopes of getting a sentence out that 'if you're right in your conclusion Mike, then I would doubt the inerrancy of scripture!' Which sounds terrible! It's directly opposite to what scripture teaches! But when you know of "Tim" and what he really believes and teaches, you understand better that what he said just came out wrong. His point was this; he doesn't doubt the bible's inerrancy...in fact because he knows it to be 100% infailable then he knows what it says to be true...and to him that was proof enough that the text he was reading meant exactly what it said, with no twisty interpretation needed! So indeed it was easy to see by 'Tim's' other writings that he was not heretical at all, it was a mistake on his part to word something like he did.
My point in all of this has been to draw attention to the fact that people, despite their honest and godly intentions, can just stuff up. I mean, seriously! Let's look at some of the people in scripture, who messed up badly! Abraham trusts God to pack up and leave, but then pimps his wife out! Peter, the leader of the apostles, he messed up so many times that it give hope to all of us!
My exception to your first post was that you were indeed judging Mr Graham. And unless you know him personally, then as you say, it is only God who may make that call. Bad mouthing Mr Graham on a public forum where you don't know the facts and he can't defend himself to all the people reading your judgements, is not a very Christian thing to do.
Christianity is about being in Christ who is all perfection. Jesus told the rich young ruler...if you would be perfect...sell all you have and come follow Me. We are to be perfect and sinless as our heavenly Father.
Of course men have got hold of the gospel and made this out to be ridiculous!!! Carnal cannot receive the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness to him.
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