The Case for Eternal Security

[Wrangler]

He already has.
Do you think the will of humankind will triumph or God's will that every person be saved?

What were you saying about bad doctrine?

/

^ This post. Not a Scripture verse in sight.

To say God does not want anyone to perish is not to mean universalism is true. Not sure how tou suppose this line of rationalization supports OSAS.

 

[simplefaith1]

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Luke8:13

What do such people believe for a while? What do they fall away from?

 

[St. SteVen]

^ This post. Not a Scripture verse in sight.

See page one of this topic. Thanks.

/

 

[Rightglory]

And first hello RG...I live on the West side of Orlando...35 clicks worth

I agree with you in the first half of your post, and the second half not so much; beginning with ''it is a choice, a free choice of who we choose..." This is the typical rub, for and from one side of the argument. Those who leave the fold as I've know and understand the holy writ for many decades now, are for those who were not truly of the fold in the first place. I should attach scripture for all this....I will gather some for the next go around if you want. Or maybe later....no hurry of course.

I really appreciate you sharing your candid view of this important subject.

West Palm Beach aye...I lived in Port Saint Lucie, up the road a bit...small world. I bet we went to some of the same stores and of course shared the same roads...

Texts only help if one is basing them on the scriptural definition of what constitutes a believer. One is either in the Kingdom or is not in the Kingdom. Baptism has always been from the beginning the entrance into the Kingdom. Peter makes this clear in his sermon at Pentecost. Acts 1:40-42. The Kingdom, the Church, is not filled with mature believers from the beginning. They are babes in Christ, needing nurture, testing to maturity. They may be a strong one, a weak one, every kind, they are all in the Kingdom.
The parable of the sower is an excellent example of who are believers. The first example, the seed was eaten immediately by the birds, never took root. The second and third examples are of believers who were faithful for a time but let the cares of this world overwhelm their faith and they departed. The fourth is the faithful one which bore much fruit. There are many examples of these in the NT. There is no text that guarantees that a person who believes has eternal life during his lifetime. If one is faithful to the end he will inherit eternal life, I Pet 1:3-5.
Another, among many more, is Matt 24:40-51. show what happens to a faithful servant who becomes unfaithful, will be cast with the unbelievers.

 

[St. SteVen]

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Luke8:13

What do such people believe for a while? What do they fall away from?

Welcome to the forum.
Good questions.

- What do such people believe for a while?
They hear the gospel but are not well rooted.

- What do they fall away from?
Not being well rooted is the cause for "falling away".

I don't think this is a strong case against eternal security. (if that was your intention) ???
Can someone that is born again fall away for a time and then return to be better established?
I believe so.

The Good Shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one. And carries them back to the fold.
The father of the prodigal son ran to meet his returning son, and welcomed him back.

What business do we suppose God is in?
The business of redemption, or the business of condemnation?

/

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus is the Living water.

The word of God is related to the "washing of regeneration".

Salvation is very interesting, as its based on a dead Jew, His blood, and the Holy Spirit.

Water need not apply.

In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

In Titus 3:5, we read washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which is a reference to 'spiritual washing' or purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't think this is a strong case against eternal security.

What would be a strong case against eternal security?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Everyone please refrain from fighting, or this topic may be shut down. Thanks.

It may as well be shut down since this topic is a waste of time.

Those believing in the fake eternal security message will have to learn the hard way about it's untruthfulness

What do such people believe for a while? What do they fall away from?

Exactly. They believed and then fell away

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

 

[APAK]

Texts only help if one is basing them on the scriptural definition of what constitutes a believer. One is either in the Kingdom or is not in the Kingdom. Baptism has always been from the beginning the entrance into the Kingdom. Peter makes this clear in his sermon at Pentecost. Acts 1:40-42. The Kingdom, the Church, is not filled with mature believers from the beginning. They are babes in Christ, needing nurture, testing to maturity. They may be a strong one, a weak one, every kind, they are all in the Kingdom.
The parable of the sower is an excellent example of who are believers. The first example, the seed was eaten immediately by the birds, never took root. The second and third examples are of believers who were faithful for a time but let the cares of this world overwhelm their faith and they departed. The fourth is the faithful one which bore much fruit. There are many examples of these in the NT. There is no text that guarantees that a person who believes has eternal life during his lifetime. If one is faithful to the end he will inherit eternal life, I Pet 1:3-5.
Another, among many more, is Matt 24:40-51. show what happens to a faithful servant who becomes unfaithful, will be cast with the unbelievers.

RG, what sort of guarantee are you searching for in scripture that will convince you of having salvation or being saved in this life time?

And Matt 24:40-51 is all about those who were saved and doing in faith spiritual works of the Spirit, and those who deliberately put off their call to salvation. They thought they could continue in sin and evil works in their carnal natural fallen lifestyle and avoid judgement as they did not believe they would be judged.

The door to their salvation was closed by God. He called and they were never chosen. They were left outside of the Kingdom. They had the opportunity to open their heart to God and they refused to believe in him, his gospel and his Son for salvation and the coming judgment. And so these were placed with the other hypocrites or unbelievers.

 

[simplefaith1]

You will have to do gymnastics with much scripture to believe everyone placed in a saved state has eternal security. The truth is, some do, and some do not.



A young person is forced to go to church by their parents. They make some friends there who are all committed Christians. They don’t want to feel the odd one out, so they make a commitment on that basis, but it is obviously a shallow one. Are they ''officially'' placed in a saved state? Yes! They believe for a while, but when the christian life becomes difficult, as it is at times, in the time of testing they fall away, due to that shallow commitment. Second example of the parable of the sower.

Others make a much stronger commitment, but spend their lives constantly being side tracked from the path they should be on by worldly things. They do not fall away, but they do not mature. You mature by evermore practising right from wrong. Third example of the parable of the sower.

So, we can say one group had security the other did not. Hence, the bible speaks of security for believers, but at other times it does not.

 

[simplefaith1]

Texts only help if one is basing them on the scriptural definition of what constitutes a believer. One is either in the Kingdom or is not in the Kingdom. Baptism has always been from the beginning the entrance into the Kingdom. Peter makes this clear in his sermon at Pentecost. Acts 1:40-42. The Kingdom, the Church, is not filled with mature believers from the beginning. They are babes in Christ, needing nurture, testing to maturity. They may be a strong one, a weak one, every kind, they are all in the Kingdom.
The parable of the sower is an excellent example of who are believers. The first example, the seed was eaten immediately by the birds, never took root. The second and third examples are of believers who were faithful for a time but let the cares of this world overwhelm their faith and they departed. The fourth is the faithful one which bore much fruit. There are many examples of these in the NT. There is no text that guarantees that a person who believes has eternal life during his lifetime. If one is faithful to the end he will inherit eternal life, I Pet 1:3-5.
Another, among many more, is Matt 24:40-51. show what happens to a faithful servant who becomes unfaithful, will be cast with the unbelievers.

Jesus only said those in the second example of the parable of the sower fell away, those in the third example did not mature. You mature by evermore practising right from wrong, not being side tracked from the path you should be on by worldly things.
Personally speaking I have rarely met people who truly denied themselves, and persevered to bear fruit up to one hundred times what was planted. Most get side tracked from the path they should be on at times by one thing or another, I include myself in that too.

 

[St. SteVen]

What would be a strong case against eternal security?

There is a strong case to be made on either side.
I am one of few who recognize that.

The purpose of this thread, which I launched, is to present the case in favor of eternal security. (OSAS)
Because... all of the other threads I saw were anti-OSAS. Even the term OSAS is used as a negative term.

The case against eternal security has been made. And the case FOR eternal security has been made.
Most posters choose a side and argue against the other side. I can see both sides of the issue.
Here below is my position.

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd.

I don't think God wants us to live in fear of losing our salvation.
To believe otherwise is to accept the position of spiritual extortion. Behavior based on a threat.

As I said earlier, I was stunned by the results of a form poll that asked
whether Christians would follow Jesus if their was no afterlife.
The resounding reply was, "No." With no threat of eternal punishment, they would not follow Jesus.

They actually saw no benefit in the here and now. If the anti-OSAS eternal insecurity crowd is correct,
where will these folks spend eternity? A sobering thought. They certainly aren't fooling God.
Disingenuous religion would be worthless in his sight. IMHO

/

 

[mailmandan]

Those believing in the fake eternal security message will have to learn the hard way about it's untruthfulness

Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost, regardless of how secure or insecure we feel about our salvation. There are those in the NOSAS camp who believe that salvation is either obtained and/or maintained by works who will have to learn the hard way about its untruthfulness.

Exactly. They believed and then fell away

Yet their shallow, temporary belief which produced no fruit was never firmly rooted and established in a regenerate heart from the start. (Luke 8:13) They fell away from their initial, emotional response when they received the word with joy, yet the word never fully took root.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[St. SteVen]

You will have to do gymnastics with much scripture to believe everyone placed in a saved state has eternal security. The truth is, some do, and some do not.

That saw cuts both ways.
Either side has to discard the other view to make their case.
Both views are biblical. Pick a side.
I posted the biblical view for eternal security on page one of this topic.
I am fully aware of the other view, which has been the primary view presented
on this forum since I arrived. I wanted to present the other side.

A young person is forced to go to church by their parents. They make some friends there who are all committed Christians. They don’t want to feel the odd one out, so they make a commitment on that basis, but it is obviously a shallow one. Are they ''officially'' placed in a saved state? Yes! They believe for a while, but when the christian life becomes difficult, as it is at times, in the time of testing they fall away, due to that shallow commitment. Second example of the parable of the sower.

That's a great point really.
Salvation as a social designation based on human observation and opinion,
versus salvation as a spiritual reality based on a solid renewed relationship with God.

Others make a much stronger commitment, but spend their lives constantly being side tracked from the path they should be on by worldly things. They do not fall away, but they do not mature. You mature by evermore practising right from wrong. Third example of the parable of the sower.

Question: What is the basis for salvation?
Commit to a doctrinal position. Are you living in a state of eternal insecurity?
Is that what God wants for us? Would you saddle others with that opinion?

So, we can say one group had security the other did not. Hence, the bible speaks of security for believers, but at other times it does not.

Agree.
That's a very balanced view.
Do you understand that the Bible contradicts itself on this matter?
Or can't you live with that observation?

/

 

[Ritajanice]

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd.

Plus , we have been “ Born Again “ of imperishable/ incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth forever..

Well, if one imo doesn’t actually know what that means, then how are they supposed to know what saved from eternal damnation means...imo,xxx

How can they trust in Jesus without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are those in the NOSAS camp who believe that salvation is either obtained and/or maintained by works who will have to learn the hard way about its untruthfulness.

NOSAS - I like that term.
Thanks for joining the discussion, Dan.
Always good to see you on the forum.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Plus , we have been “ Born Again “ of imperishable/ incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth forever..

WOW.
That's a GREAT point, sister!
"... we have been “ Born Again “ of imperishable/ incorruptible seed..."

Well, if one imo doesn’t actually know what that means, then how are they supposed to know what saved from eternal damnation means...imo,xxx

Maybe this is the problem with those who reject eternal security.
They have no personal evidence that they themselves are saved. Time to get with the program! - LOL

How can they trust in Jesus without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed!
Perhaps if they had that, they wouldn't question eternal security. ???
From what platform do they make their declarations? (sinking sand?)

/

 

[Behold]

The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

"Christ the Lord, is That Spirit".

 

[St. SteVen]

mailmandan said:
The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

"Christ the Lord, is That Spirit".

What an appalling response. IMHO

A positive post from your brother in Christ is met with a divisive corrective jab.
Can't we treat each other better than that?

/

 

[Behold]

mailmandan said:


What an appalling response. IMHO


/

I quoted a NT verse that is related to the post.

See, Jesus is the Living Water.....

You would find this "appalling". @St. SteVen
Of course.
However dont be offended by the fact that Jesus is the Living Water.