The Bible teaches repentance unto confession, not confession unto repentance

[Ghada]

On the contrary, neither faith nor repentance is a guarantee of moral perfection or success.

No, it's not. It's just the only way to begin walking with Jesus in the first place. Adding to our repentance and faith in Christ the works of virtue, godliness, and charity ensures we shall not fall.

John isn't talking about sinless perfection,

No, he doesn't just talk about it, but commands it like Jesus to go and sin not.

so he promises his readers that Jesus will forgive them if they fall into a moral failure during their walk.

This is true with all God's commandments. If we do sin against Him, then all is not necessarily lost. We can still repent and come to the advocate of the world just like the rest of the world.

John assumes that we all sin from time to time.

You do. Not John the apostle.

Your gospel of moral relativism based upon frequency of sinning, is not the Bible.

.

But he promises that those who walk in the light will not sin, meaning they will not willfully and habitually fall for temptation and lead a licentious lifestyle.

Neither is your gospel of moral relevance based upon 'quality' of sinning.

God doesn't just sinning by how much 'will' we put into it.

Your gospel based upon quality and frequency of sinning against God, is not the Bible.

Paul deals with this in-depth in his Epistle to the Romans, chapters 6 and 7. At the end of chapter 6, he employs servitude as a metaphor to describe the choice before us.

And now we have doctrine taught for metaphor only.

They do the same with hell by making it parable only.

Those who live under the law have a strong incentive to live an ethical life.

All the lawful do so. Only the outlaws have no incentive to keep the law.

If you have no incentive to keep the law of Christ, it's because neither Christ nor His law is in your heart and mind.

The incentive is to not be found and judged transgressors of His law, which is why we are commanded to cleanse within the platter and lust not with the heart.

What would motivate those living under grace to live an ethical life?

A pure heart of Christ free from lust.

I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

Those transgressing His law are neither under grace nor have Christ with a heart free from a lusting.

What is the incentive for those living under grace to present their members to the service of righteousness? According to Paul, those who present their members in the service of sin will find nothing but death; but those who present their members in service to righteousness find sanctification.

Your gospel of serving death from time to time and serving righteousness from time to time, is Romans 7 double hearted Christianity.

Paul says, "I am speaking in human terms", which means he is using an everyday example.

True, the everyday example of error. As in Romans 3, he is speaking as men in error. He is simply repeating the arguments of men that do not speak from the oracles of God, but from their own sinful minds and defiled consciences.

He then rebukes them out of hand, with whose damnation is just.

He has employed the "servant" metaphor in order to indicate the necessity of "presenting your members" to obedience.

Commandment, not metaphor.

We either present our bodies as living sacrifices to Him with out member unto His righteousness from a pure heart of His, or we are tormented in the non-parabolic flame of hell.

Obeying righteousness requires a conscience effort and an everyday choice to serve righteousness.

True, Which is never while choosing otherwise to lust and sin in unrighteousness against God.

Why do you preach 'only' sinning from time to time, as not being committed to a life of sinning, and yet preach doing righteousness from time to time, while not sinning, is reckoned being committed to a life of righteousness?

Christian moral relevance. You judge how much sinning or righteousness time to time is proven commitment for life.

God of course judges committing the act now is commitment to condemn or justify.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Of course Christ also judges the act committed by lusting with the heart, and does not even need to be seen physically.

Your doctrine is carnal moral relevance and is naturally blind to man's spiritual works being committed and judged first.

 

[Ghada]

You seem to have me confused with someone else.

Don't you confess and teach Christians sin from time to time. Don't you condemn the gospel of sinning no more?

When you sin from time to time, are you a child of the devil or of God?

 

[Ghada]

Did you consider John's contribution to chapters one and three? It doesn't appear that you did. Your conclusion that admitting sin means someone is not in Christ contradicts John's statement that refusing to admit sin means someone is not walking in the light.

I'll try again. Your conclusion that someone having sin is also in Christ, contradicts the verse that there is no sin in Christ. (1 John 3:5)

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[Ghada]

Lets say you repent of your sin, but you dont repent of your unbelief?

This is absolutely true. That's why we are commanded to believe Jesus' gospel when repenting, and not that of another religion of man.

A.) you die and go to hell like a bullet

Exactly. Repenting to follow Muhammed or Buddha or Krishna or just a better lifestyle, is not the way to the Father.

The verse says..>"while you are YET a sinner, Christ died for you".......not after you stopped.
The verse says that "God justifies THE UNGODLY">.......not those who are trying not to be..

See, We all come to God, as a sinner, BELIEVING, In Christ.

Notice "Believing".... ???????

That is a person who has REPENTED from UNBELIEF............as that is FAITH in Christ.... And that is the repentance that God accepts.

The rest of this is just old hat doctrine of your own, without honestly looking at the other side.

No religion accepts the unrepented into their ranks, especially not Jesus into His own body.

There is also a great difference with Jesus' command to repent, which is to repent of all sinning, not just some sins according to the will of Allah or teachings of Buddha.

No man repents to come to the Father without Jesus Christ, and no man comes to the Father through Jesus Christ, without first repenting of all sinning.

The believe first to be saved gospel, followed with some repenting, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And the repenting of unbelief alone, by faith alone, without repenting of dead works, is not all the repenting first commanded by Jesus Christ.

And repenting of unbelief, while not believing all the word of the Bible, that we don't like, is that of devils, who need not even repent of unbelief, because they know who the true God, but repent not of their unrighteous works of the devil against God.

Get over it. The commandment and gospel of Jesus Christ is repent of sinning and also believe Jesus gospel and be converted to His holy way of life in all our manners.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent is always the first word out of the mouth of the Lord to man, in order to believe, be converted, and come to the Father by Jesus Christ.

 

[Ghada]

I've pointed said that I don't think ceasing from sin is impossible.

Great. You're rare on this site. Give the post # where you said this.

So, you know there are Christians ceasing from sin at this time. Even if you don't know any personally. How about yourself?

 

[CadyandZoe]

He understood Paul was preaching faith in Jesus without acts of repentance.

If by "acts of repentance" you mean the sacrament of penance, then yes, Luther finally understood that God's grace was not mediated through the sacrament of penance.

Martin Luther vigorously opposed the traditional sacrament of penance and the theology upon which it was based, arguing that they had no scriptural warrant and that they promoted a troubled conscience, works righteousness, and clerical tyranny. As Luther developed his evangelical soteriology, he dismantled the entire late medieval penitential system, seeking to provide for himself and others what he believed this system lacked: an enduring sense of forgiveness of sin. Luther believed that justification by faith offered this certainty of absolution. ​

Rittgers, R. (2017, March 29). Penance, Confession, Forgiveness, and Reconciliation in Martin Luther’s Context and Writings. Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Religion. Retrieved 19 Sep. 2023, from https://oxfordre.com/religion/view/...001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-361.(Ronald "Oxford Research Encyclopedias

The first one to rebuke the opposing side of faith alone without works, is James 2.

James, of course, was not recommending the sacrament of penance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, having the Holy Ghost and power of the worlds to come is knowing we can't live without sinning.

Sounds like those that say their Christ demands they sin, so they can honestly say they still have sin.

Sounds like you make stuff.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, it's not. It's just the only way to begin walking with Jesus in the first place. Adding to our repentance and faith in Christ the works of virtue, godliness, and charity ensures we shall not fall.

I'm sorry, but I am not convinced that you understand the meaning of "repent" or "repentance." I believe you are confusing "repentance" with "penitence." These are two different things. Jesus commanded his nation to repent. Jesus did not command his nation to perform acts of penitence or to feel compunction.

The command to "repent" is not a command to "feel sorry" or "feel guilty." The command to "repent" is the command to "change your mind." For this reason, the apostles picture the process of sanctification in terms of the renewal of the mind.

John tells you that if you confess your sin, Jesus is both just and faithful to forgive your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. It follows then that you have sins to confess. He tells you that if you don't admit that you have sins, then you are walking in darkness.

John never mentions repentance, neither in his gospel nor his letters. Why? John is more interested in encouraging his readers to believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The central focus of John's gospel is the question of belief; why some people believe while others don't. The most common words in John's gospel and his letters are "light", "witness", "manifest", "see," and "testify."

Contrary to your perspective concerning "works" Paul writes the following sentence to Titus.

Titus 3:
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit . . .

James doesn't disagree with Paul. He is concerned with those who say they have faith, but don't act accordingly. For instance, according to the teaching of Jesus, God will not forgive me if I am unwilling to forgive others. Based on that, one would expect a man of faith to forgive others just as he has been forgiven. The latter follows from the former. If James saw a man who was unwilling to forgive others, he would be right to doubt whether the man actually believed the gospel.

Understand that James is not advocating for the sacrament of penance. Far from it. James is advocating for actions that logically follow from beliefs.

No, he doesn't just talk about it, but commands it like Jesus to go and sin not.

Yes, Jesus told the woman to "go and sin no more." Is Jesus saying, "Go and be morally perfect?" No. That would be impossible. Remember the context. The woman was caught in adultery and in a hypocritical display of piety, her lovers brought her to Jesus in order to discredit Jesus. Jesus told the men, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." Each man dropped his rock and left the scene for obvious reasons. Given this detail, we can now properly understand what Jesus meant. He was telling the woman to give up her life as an adulterous prostitute. That is not impossible. She is fully able to give up her life as a prostitute. And if she does, she will be "sinning no more" as Jesus meant it.

This is true with all God's commandments. If we do sin against Him, then all is not necessarily lost. We can still repent and come to the advocate of the world just like the rest of the world.

Not only that but changing our minds and attitudes should lead us to walk accordingly.

You do. Not John the apostle.

Your gospel of moral relativism based upon frequency of sinning, is not the Bible.

Again, you have me confused with someone else.

A pure heart of Christ free from lust.

I have never met an honest man, including the Apostle Paul, who denied having lust in his heart.

Your gospel of serving death from time to time and serving righteousness from time to time, is Romans 7 double hearted Christianity.

Your false accusations are tedious.

Your doctrine is carnal moral relevance and is naturally blind to man's spiritual works being committed and judged first.

You have yet to prove your case.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Don't you confess and teach Christians sin from time to time. Don't you condemn the gospel of sinning no more?

When you sin from time to time, are you a child of the devil or of God?

I condemn the illusion of sinning no more.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'll try again. Your conclusion that someone having sin is also in Christ, contradicts the verse that there is no sin in Christ. (1 John 3:5)

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

You don't understand what Paul means by "in Christ." He doesn't mean "inside Christ".

 

[marks]

Great. You're rare on this site. Give the post # where you said this.

I've told you that in a few ways a few times. I don't think you pay a lot of attention to what I write, rather, that you see I disagree with you on some things, and just go on the offensive, and stop paying attention. You've done it with me, you've done it with others, and it's not this holy living that you claim it is. You are wrong to do so. And you don't have to act that way, you have the power to deny it, though you may not have the will yet.

o, you know there are Christians ceasing from sin at this time. Even if you don't know any personally. How about yourself?

I'm not here to discuss myself with you, I'm here to discuss the Bible and God's teachings. I've already explained to you, following the example of Paul, We are not fit judges of ourselves, and I'm not about to indulge in the hubris of declaring, I don't sin.

You've made that declaration and you I've watched you lie to and about others. So what's with that??? Yet you go on in denial.

Of course God is able to empower our lives that we not sin. Yet the most we will experience of that is that we will not have 'the consciousness of sin". We won't be aware of committing sin, however,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Just because we are not aware of sins doesn't mean we haven't committed any, we are not judges of ourselves. If we think we can judge ourselves we are being foolish, as all we have are our opinions of our selves and our motives, without certain truth.

This entire issue which you've made your campaign on this site is addressed in Scripture most simply,

1 John 2:1 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Much love!

 

[gpresdo]

I'll try again. Your conclusion that someone having sin is also in Christ, contradicts the verse that there is no sin in Christ. (1 John 3:5)

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Scripture is referring to Christ not man. Meaning...there is no sin in Christ...the Holy Son. We are told in many ways...Christ has no sin.

 

[Davy]

This may not seem like much of a distinction, but it is actually all important in some raging debates about Christian salvation and works.

The Bible preaches to repent and believe the gospel. It does not say believe the gospel and then repent.

If we believe we are saved by confessing the gospel is true, before repenting of dead works, then unto repentance becomes a gradual thing that is good for life, but not necessary for being justified by Christ. This is what the Christian gospel of justified with works teaches as the Christian life of progressive natural change, that never ends in whole repentance from all dead works.

They both work together. Trying to separate the need for repentance to Christ from Faith of The Gospel is a working like the seminaries try to do, straining at a gnat. Maybe you ought to write a new book, make a lot of money. That's their kind of thinking.


One will not come to 'repentance' until they see the 'need', and by hearing The Gospel is one of the main ways seeing that need for repentance happens.

Rom 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?'

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV

Hearing The Word of God is what mostly calls one to repentance and belief of The Gospel.

 

[Ghada]

You arew right, repentance is unto confession unto salvation! After we are believers we no longer need repentance for we have already changed our mind, but growth in knowledge (Romans 12) and the confession to forgiveness as a believer.

Mind repentance only is more pretense of faith alone. Having less pleasure in sinning while sinning, is not Bible repentance of sinning with dead works.

Jesus takes away the sinning, not just the fun out of it.

The faith alone gospel is just a mind game played by unrepented sinners.

 

[Ghada]

Scripture is referring to Christ not man.

Not sinful man who cannot possibly be in Christ, in whom is no sin.

Meaning...there is no sin in Christ...the Holy Son. We are told in many ways...Christ has no sin.

Neither does He have in Him, men with sin.

Only those that have their sins taken away have no sin in Him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Mind repentance only is more pretense of faith alone. Having less pleasure in sinning while sinning, is not Bible repentance of sinning with dead works.

Jesus takes away the sinning, not just the fun out of it.

The faith alone gospel is just a mind game played by unrepented sinners.

Well I shall give you one last chance to acknowledge your lying about my beliefs. If your next post does not contain this, I shall shake the dust off my feet and place you on ignore.

You will have to answer for bearing false witness and lying about a brother.

 

[Ghada]

James, of course, was not recommending the sacrament of penance.

Exactly. He was just commanding we do good, as well as eschew evil.

Repenting of sinning is every man's command from God. Believing Jesus' gospel is for repented sons and brethren to now love God and neighbors with purified hearts.

The Ephesian church in Rev 2 had repented of dead works, been through many trials, and held firmly to pure doctrine of Christ, but they were still becoming cold of heart by not doing good when possible to one another in need.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

It's not possible to be loving God with the heart, but not loving our neighbor with help in time of need.

Even so, it's not possible to have faith toward God unto salvation and justification with Christ, while not doing good when able to do so.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly. He was just commanding we do good, as well as eschew evil.

Not exactly. James was looking for evidence of faith. Even nonbelievers "do good" as Jesus said.

Matthew 7:
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

James wasn't looking for good works. He was looking for actions that follow logically from believing that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. What evidence do you see that I am actually, a genuine believer? Well, for instance, Jesus taught us that God will not forgive my sins if I am unwilling to forgive others. Thus, If by my actions I demonstrate that I am willing to forgive others, then I am showing you my faith. The Bible teaches us that God created all human beings in his image. If I treat others as if this is true, I am demonstrating my faith. If I treat others like I am greater than they or if they are greater than me, I demonstrate a lack of belief.

James is expecting me to act as if I actually believe what Jesus said and to put that into practice.

Repenting of sinning is every man's command from God. Believing Jesus' gospel is for repented sons and brethren to now love God and neighbors with purified hearts.

I respectfully disagree. God's command to love others applies to all human beings regardless of whether a man or a woman is a believer. Again, I am obligated to treat others as I would treat them, whether or not I am a believer. In general, all human beings are always obligated to obey God's morality, no matter who I am, where I live, or to what family I belong.

If I disagree with God, I am always obligated to change my mind (repent) and If I don't believe that Jesus is both Lord and Savior, I am obligated to change my mind about that also.

Even so, it's not possible to have faith toward God unto salvation and justification with Christ, while not doing good when able to do so.

That sounds like an out. How many times a day are you not able to do so?

 

[Ghada]

I believe you are confusing "repentance" with "penitence."

Adding virtue, godliness, charity to our faith is not penitence, but doing good with Jesus from a pure heart, that is repented of doing dead works.

You accuse Peter of preaching penitence.

 

[Ghada]

The command to "repent" is the command to "change your mind."

Bible repentance is from dead works.

Changing our mind about sin, to enjoy sinning less, is not the Bible repentance of changing the heart from doing it.

For this reason, the apostles picture the process of sanctification in terms of the renewal of the mind.

The apostles of Jesus Christ don't picture anything, but command the same as Jesus: Repent of sinning and believe God from a new heart unto His righteousness.

Renewal of the new pure mind in Christ, is adding true knowledge of the Bible. It's not renewing how we think about ourselves by sinning less.

John tells you that if you confess your sin, Jesus is both just and faithful to forgive your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

It follows then that you have sins to confess.

In your mind yes, since you always go from if we sin, to when you sin, in a heartbeat.

No man having sin can be in Christ Jesus, in whom is no sin.

Any man having sin in his Christ, has a Christ of his own making with his sin.

He tells you that if you don't admit that you have sins, then you are walking in darkness.

And so, only those having sin and saying so, are in your Christ.

I'm not in your Christ nor want to be. I'll continue in my Christ Jesus, and having no sin in Him.

I'm not interested in having sin in any kind of light at all.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The central focus of John's gospel is the question of belief; why some people believe while others don't.

Because some people repent according to God's commandment to have faith toward Him, and some do not repent, and so have no faith toward God to come to His light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Once again, I'm not interested in having sin with you in your lukewarm light of partial repentance only.