The answer of hell and its origins

[face2face]

@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire is allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

 

[n2thelight]

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

All the way to this point I'm in agreement with you. But here you are advocating soul sleep . At death we return to the Father , the flesh will not rise . So let's look at the Old Testament

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

ecclesiastes12

 

[face2face]

All the way to this point I'm in agreement with you. But here you are advocating soul sleep . At death we return to the Father , the flesh will not rise . So let's look at the Old Testament

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

ecclesiastes12

Thanks

I have never seen Eccles 12 used in that way...it's certainly way outside of its context. I haven't time to show you the meaning of Eccles 12 but will try to at a future time.

A start though...

Where have you seen the imagery of dust returning to the earth?

 

[Dropship]

Food for thought-
"Ungodly men, wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:12)
So perhaps hell could also be a terrible void where disembodied souls drift helplessly forever?

 

[face2face]

Food for thought-
"Ungodly men, wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:12)
So perhaps hell could also be a terrible void where disembodied souls drift helplessly forever?

View attachment 26017

Or a reminded of the possibility of corruption from within! All of the early churches had this problem, so there is no reason to assume that we have not...what translation did you use?

...if Hell you imply - how so darkness when its a unquenchable fire?

F2F

(it's ironic you took us to "clouds without water" Jude 1:12 - the very people who created these notions and brought them into the Word of God)

 

[Jack]

Kingdom Hall / Hallway to Hell!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Dropship]

Slinging rubbish onto fires was a common method of garbage disposal, so the bible aptly uses "fire" to get the message across to people that hell is definitely not a nice place..:)

 

[face2face]

Slinging rubbish onto fires was a common method of garbage disposal, so the bible aptly uses "fire" to get the message across to people that hell is definitely not a nice place..:)

It's clear you believe in this hell.
Can you show it from Genesis? Genesis 3:19 maybe?

 

[face2face]

Food for thought-
"Ungodly men, wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:12)
So perhaps hell could also be a terrible void where disembodied souls drift helplessly forever?

View attachment 26017

You meant to quote Jude 1:13.

The illusion to a wandering star is interesting...it's possible the writer was alluding to a meteor or maybe a comet?

The former would make sense given the context...flashes through the night sky quickly only to disrepair in to the night sky. Ultimately both examples end up in darkness! My take is it's talking about the forced return to Judaism and a re-enslavement to the Law would be like such a comet... soon to be lost in the oblivion of darkness forever, when the Temple at Jerusalem was no more!

It's such a common occurrence to see misquoted Scripture to support wrong teaching...and when the Scripture is illuminated it's rather edifying.

Happy for you to try again....its the point of this OP - to see if the origins of this fanciful hell can be proven.

F2F

 

[Dropship]

Slinging rubbish onto fires was a common method of garbage disposal, so the bible aptly uses "fire" to get the message across to people that hell is definitely not a nice place..:)

It's clear you believe in this hell.
Can you show it from Genesis? Genesis 3:19 maybe?

Genesis 3:19-
"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"
Yes, ALL christian and nonchristian bodies turn to dust, but christian's souls live on in heaven, and jesus-rejecters souls live on in a very nasty place..:)

 

[face2face]

Genesis 3:19-
"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"
Yes, ALL christian and nonchristian bodies turn to dust, but christian's souls live on in heaven, and jesus-rejecters souls live on in a very nasty place..:)

And your supporting text from Genesis?

 

[Behold]

Is Hell a real place?

Jesus spoke more about Hell then He did about Heaven.

And..."Hell is created for the Devil and his angels".... So, is the devil real? Fallen angels"? Then Hell is absolutely not some garbage dump outside the gates of the Old City.

And who will be with the Devil and His angles. ?
Jesus told us..
Its these..."you are OF your FATHER, the Devil".... so, that is all the unbelievers, as to be an Unbeliever, is to the spiritual child of the Devil.
"OF YOUR Father".

Jesus says, "you must be BORN AGAIN".....= so that you change Spiritual Fathers.., and GOD becomes your Father.

God will not be letting sons/daughters of the Devil into Heaven, and there is NO 2nd Chance to be born again in Hell, as there is no CROSS in Hell.
The CROSS was raised on EARTH.. Jesus died on EARTH for your sin, so, you will take that forgiveness while you are BREATHING on earth, or you will face the end result of not being saved, of dying a CHRIST REJECTOR, after you die.

 

[Dropship]

You meant to quote Jude 1:13.
It's such a common occurrence to see misquoted Scripture to support wrong teaching...
Happy for you to try again....its the point of this OP - to see if the origins of this fanciful hell can be proven.

Thanks here's the full verse-
"Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
and my point is that hell is definitely not a nice place no matter what form it takes..:)

 

[Jack]

Belief in Hell is not required for residency therein.
Mk 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED.

 

[Dropship]

And your supporting text from Genesis?

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate, what's Genesis got to do with it?
Jesus said there's a hell, end of story..:)
I mean, if nonchristians reject him they're going to be slung into hell like rubbish and good riddance because there's nowhere else for them to go.

"Come on down you dummies"

 

[Enoch111]

..I don't believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire...

You might as well say "I believe God is a liar".

 

[Jack]

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate, what's Genesis got to do with it?
Jesus said there's a hell, end of story..:)
I mean, if nonchristians reject him they're going to be slung into hell like rubbish and good riddance because there's nowhere else for them to go.

It's one way JW's avoid talking about what Jesus said.

 

[face2face]

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate, what's Genesis got to do with it?
Jesus said there's a hell, end of story..:)
I mean, if nonchristians reject him they're going to be slung into hell like rubbish and good riddance because there's nowhere else for them to go.

"Come on down you dummies"
View attachment 26019

So your saying your belief in this eternal place of torment isnt taught in Genesis? What about the first five books?

 

[Dropship]

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate, what's Genesis got to do with it?
Jesus said there's a hell, end of story..:)
I mean, if nonchristians reject him they're going to be slung into hell like rubbish and good riddance because there's nowhere else for them to go.

It's one way JW's avoid talking about what Jesus said.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at mate, I'm definitely not a JW, are you?

 

[face2face]

Is Hell a real place?

Jesus spoke more about Hell then He did about Heaven.

And..."Hell is created for the Devil and his angels".... So, is the devil real? Fallen angels"? Then Hell is absolutely not some garbage dump outside the gates of the Old City.

And who will be with the Devil and His angles. ?
Jesus told us..
Its these..."you are OF your FATHER, the Devil".... so, that is all the unbelievers, as to be an Unbeliever, is to the spiritual child of the Devil.
"OF YOUR Father".

Jesus says, "you must be BORN AGAIN".....= so that you change Spiritual Fathers.., and GOD becomes your Father.

God will not be letting sons/daughters of the Devil into Heaven, and there is NO 2nd Chance to be born again in Hell, as there is no CROSS in Hell.
The CROSS was raised on EARTH.. Jesus died on EARTH for your sin, so, you will take that forgiveness while you are BREATHING on earth, or you will face the end result of not being saved, of dying a CHRIST REJECTOR, after you die.

At present we are trying to see if Hell believers can prove their understanding from the OT - so far we can establish its not in Genesis and possibly the first five books.