The answer of hell and its origins

[bbyrd009]

Yes I accept the truth not what men say I must believe. Like I said Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 that he and others of the heavenly calling would be resurrected when the second presence of Jesus Christ began.

hi Barn :)
still waitin fer Jesus, huh?

Matthew 16:28 Lexicon: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

To comfort first-century Christians who were bereaved of “those who have fallen asleep in death through Christ,” the apostle Paul wrote:

We the living [those of the heavenly calling] who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those [of the heavenly calling] who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ [of the heavenly calling] will rise first. Afterward we the living [of the heavenly calling] who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

So Paul is saying that at the time the second presence of Jesus Christ begins there will be humans of the heavenly calling living on earth. First those of the heavenly calling who have died and have been sleeping in death for thousands of years are resurrected from the dead first. Then those of the heavenly calling who are alive on earth when the second presence of Jesus Christ begins, at the time of each of their deaths, at the moment of death are changed in a twinkling of an eye, then caught up to be with Jesus Christ.

The reason these who are alive on earth are changed in the twinkling of an eye at death instead of sleeping in death as those who were resurrected first did for thousands of years is because these humans who are alive on earth who are of the heavenly calling are living during the second presence of Jesus Christ, they don't have to wait for the second presence of Jesus Christ to begin to be resurrected, since they are already living in the second presence of Jesus Christ.

ha you are just waaay too sure of yourself imo Barney; know what the Bible has to say about that?
its in the part you have cut out, along with about half of the NT

 

[RLT63]

Yes I accept the truth not what men say I must believe. Like I said Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 that he and others of the heavenly calling would be resurrected when the second presence of Jesus Christ began.

He didn’t say anything about the Heavenly calling. You added that. The phrase Heavenly calling appears one time in the Bible in a letter to the Hebrews.

 

[bbyrd009]

bc thats what JWs do, yeh
at least theyll be changing their minds on that here...eventually

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

hi Barn :)
still waitin fer Jesus, huh?

Matthew 16:28 Lexicon: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

ha you are just waaay too sure of yourself imo Barney; know what the Bible has to say about that?
its in the part you have cut out, along with about half of the NT

I'm not waiting for the second presence of Jesus Christ but I am waiting for Jesus to destroy the wicked off the earth.

Less than a year before he died Jesus explained that some of the apostles would “see the Son of man coming in his kingdom,” or, as Mark phrased it, “see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1)

But how were Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:28 fulfilled?
Often the meaning of a verse is suggested by its context. In this case, all three Gospel accounts of Jesus’ promise about seeing him in his kingdom lead immediately into the record of the transfiguration.


About a week after saying what he did at Matthew 16:28, Jesus took “some of” the apostles (Peter, James and John) up on a lofty mountain, likely Mount Hermon. There he was transfigured to appear in a vision with Moses and Elijah. And God said: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Luke 9:28-35; Matthew 17:1-5; Mark 9:2-6)

The transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in Kingdom power and heavenly glory, as Peter later confirmed. Referring to the transfiguration, Peter explained that they had thus “become eyewitnesses of his magnificence.” He added that in the transfiguration Jesus had “received from God the Father honor and glory.” (2 Peters 1:16-18) So, when Jesus said that before they died some of the apostles would see him in his kingdom, he was referring to the transfiguration scene that some of them, Peter, James, and John witnessed shortly afterward.

So these men who were apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ meaning Peter, James and John did die like all other human beings, they haven't been living for thousands of years. These men did see Jesus coming in his kingdom before they died. They will be resurrected from the dead during the second presence of Jesus Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

but I am waiting for Jesus to destroy the wicked off the earth.

ok well i wouldnt be holding my breath there Barn

They will be resurrected from the dead during the second presence of Jesus Christ.

prolly not, but good answer otherwise imo, ty;
hasnt Jesus already come in His "second presence," according to what you just said?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

He didn’t say anything about the Heavenly calling. You added that. The phrase Heavenly calling appears one time in the Bible in a letter to the Hebrews.

In Hebrews the apostle Paul is talking to those who were his holy brothers partakers of the heavenly calling. Those who will be kings and priests and judges in that heavenly Messianic kingdom with Jesus are those of the heavenly calling. The apostles and disciples including Paul are of the heavenly calling and will be kings, priests, and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom ruling over earth.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ok well i wouldnt be holding my breath there Barn

prolly not, but good answer otherwise imo, ty;
hasnt Jesus already come in His "second presence," according to what you just said?

We are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ today, yes. So those apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who have died before Jesus Christ second presence began have been resurrected from the dead. But there are is a remnant of that number who are of that heavenly calling living earth today. At the moment they die in the twinkling of an eye they are changed and caught up to be with the lord. Like Paul said those who are living earth at the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ don't precede those who have died in union with Jesus Christ. Those who have already dead are resurrected first then these that are living on earth today are resurrected at the moment of their death.

 

[RLT63]

We are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ today, yes. So those apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who have died before Jesus Christ second presence began have been resurrected from the dead. But there are is a remnant of that number who are of that heavenly calling living earth today. At the moment they die in the twinkling of an eye they are changed and caught up to be with the lord. Like Paul said those who are living earth at the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ don't precede those who have died in union with Jesus Christ. Those who have already dead are resurrected first then these that are living on earth today are resurrected at the moment of their death.

JWs have the strangest interpretation of the 144,000 that the Bible tells us are Jewish descendants of the 12 tribes. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from scripture that they are all the people who have the heavenly hope.

 

[RLT63]

In Hebrews the apostle Paul is talking to those who were his holy brothers partakers of the heavenly calling. Those who will be kings and priests and judges in that heavenly Messianic kingdom with Jesus are those of the heavenly calling. The apostles and disciples including Paul are of the heavenly calling and will be kings, priests, and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom ruling over earth.

I think Paul wrote Hebrews too though it’s not specified. We agree on something.

 

[Taken]

Food for thought-
"Ungodly men, wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:12)
So perhaps hell could also be a terrible void where disembodied souls drift helplessly forever?

?

Jude 1:
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

JWs have the strangest interpretation of the 144,000 that the Bible tells us are Jewish descendants of the 12 tribes. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from scripture that they are all the people who have the heavenly hope.

Actually it's not

 

[bbyrd009]

We are living in the second presence of Jesus Christ today, yes. So those apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who have died before Jesus Christ second presence began have been resurrected from the dead. But there are is a remnant of that number who are of that heavenly calling living earth today. At the moment they die in the twinkling of an eye they are changed and caught up to be with the lord. Like Paul said those who are living earth at the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ don't precede those who have died in union with Jesus Christ. Those who have already dead are resurrected first then these that are living on earth today are resurrected at the moment of their death.

boy, you sound awful sure Barn; and that is a big tell to me. Its prolly not gonna happen like you have imagined, ok? Be advised iow
you say you know see but you do not

 

[RLT63]

Actually it's not

Oh do I have that wrong? I thought JWs teach 144,000 have the Heavenly Hope and the great multitude have the earthly hope. In other words only 144,000 are going to Heaven. I’m not an expert on JWs though I could be wrong.

 

[Aunty Jane]

JWs have the strangest interpretation of the 144,000 that the Bible tells us are Jewish descendants of the 12 tribes. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from scripture that they are all the people who have the heavenly hope.

Barney has given you such a clear explanation as to why we believe as we do.....but the truth is "strange" only to those who have never heard it, or can't accept it.

Suppose you were born in the 1300's and somewhere along the way someone started calling the color blue, "red" and they heard it so often that they too started calling blue, "red"until everyone was doing it.....in successive generations, if children were taught to call blue, "red", if someone came along hundreds of years later and tried to correct them, it would seem ridiculous. Blue was always called red...wasn't it?

So it is with Christendom.....they have been calling 'blue, red' for centuries with regard to their doctrines, so when someone wants to set them straight using their own scriptures, they will refuse to be corrected, and accuse them of lying or distorting what "the church" has taught them for centuries.

Have you ever investigated to see if "the church" was ever right in the first place? All those doctrines you cling to cannot be backed up by scripture unless they are read into ambiguous verses. There are no clear statements for any of them. The foundations of Christendom's teachings are sand, not rock.....and the storm is coming.

Read Jesus' parable in Matthew 13:24-30 and then the explanation in vs 36-43...

If Jesus foretold that "weeds" (tares) of counterfeit Christianity would be planted by "the devil" in the same "field" as he had planted the "wheat", then there has to be some way to tell them apart, otherwise no one would know which was which. But the parable goes on to explain that only at the harvest time would the distinction be clear, and all would be harvested together.....the "weeds" being clearly different to the "wheat" in appearance now. The weeds are gathered first and thrown in the oven and disposed of, whilst the farmer gathered the wheat into his storehouse.

If you understand that plant Jesus referred to in his parable, it makes more sense. This "weed" is called "bearded darnel" and it is a common noxious weed that was the blight of Middle Eastern farmers. It is referred to as "wheat's evil twin" because it is poisonous, and in the early growing stages, looks just like wheat. Enemies would sow this darnel onto their neighbors crop to ruin it.

Its not until the plants are well established that the difference can be discerned, but by that time, the root systems of both plants are so intertwined so as to make removal impossible without destroying the wheat, so they allow the crop to grow to harvest, when the heads look completely different by that stage, so its easy to tell one from the other.....they don't look the same at all.

Transfer that parable to what we know about how Christendom came to be....the "weeds" were sown "while men were sleeping"....this is when Christians 'fell asleep' spiritually in those early centuries after the death of the apostles, and began to add things to what Jesus taught and went on to adopt pagan beliefs and concepts and grafted them over ambiguous verses in the Bible.....this is what Jesus and his apostles predicted to happen.....the divided mess that Christendom became is proof that Jesus Christ has never set foot in her. It is the reason why he can say at the judgment...."I never knew you"....."NEVER" means "not ever".

Are those who accuse others of promoting false doctrines, themselves promoting false doctrines that have been around so long that no one questions them....and if they do.....they are silenced! Does this sound familiar?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

JWs have the strangest interpretation of the 144,000 that the Bible tells us are Jewish descendants of the 12 tribes. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from scripture that they are all the people who have the heavenly hope.

Actually it's not

boy, you sound awful sure Barn; and that is a big tell to me. Its prolly not gonna happen like you have imagined, ok? Be advised iow
you say you know see but you do not

boy, you sound awful sure Barn; and that is a big tell to me. Its prolly not gonna happen like you have imagined, ok? Be advised iow
you say you know see but you do not

You nor anyone else has shown me from the scriptures that what i believe to be true from the scriptures isn't true. So I'll continue to believe until I'm shown from the scriptures that I'm in error.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh do I have that wrong? I thought JWs teach 144,000 have the Heavenly Hope and the great multitude have the earthly hope. In other words only 144,000 are going to Heaven. I’m not an expert on JWs though I could be wrong.

Yes we do there is the 144000 who have the heavenly hope then those of great crowd with the earthly hope, but the 144,000 are not made up of just jews, that's what I was saying.

 

[RLT63]

Barney has given you such a clear explanation as to why we believe as we do.....but the truth is "strange" only to those who have never heard it, or can't accept it.

Suppose you were born in the 1300's and somewhere along the way someone started calling the color blue, "red" and they heard it so often that they too started calling blue, "red"until everyone was doing it.....in successive generations, if children were taught to call blue, "red", if someone came along hundreds of years later and tried to correct them, it would seem ridiculous. Blue was always called red...wasn't it?

So it is with Christendom.....they have been calling 'blue, red' for centuries with regard to their doctrines, so when someone wants to set them straight using their own scriptures, they will refuse to be corrected, and accuse them of lying or distorting what "the church" has taught them for centuries.

Have you ever investigated to see if "the church" was ever right in the first place? All those doctrines you cling to cannot be backed up by scripture unless they are read into ambiguous verses. There are no clear statements for any of them. The foundations of Christendom's teachings are sand, not rock.....and the storm is coming.

Read Jesus' parable in Matthew 13:24-30 and then the explanation in vs 36-43...

If Jesus foretold that "weeds" (tares) of counterfeit Christianity would be planted by "the devil" in the same "field" as he had planted the "wheat", then there has to be some way to tell them apart, otherwise no one would know which was which. But the parable goes on to explain that only at the harvest time would the distinction be clear, and all would be harvested together.....the "weeds" being clearly different to the "wheat" in appearance now. These are gathered first and thrown in the oven and disposed of, whilst the farmer gathered the wheat into his storehouse.

If you understand that plant Jesus referred to in his parable, it makes more sense. This "weed" is called "bearded darnel" and it is a common noxious weed that was the blight of Middle Eastern farmers. It is referred to as "wheat's evil twin" because it is poisonous, and in the early growing stages, looks just like wheat. Enemies would sow this darnel onto their neighbors crop to ruin it.

Its not until the plants are well established that the difference can be discerned, but by that time, the root systems of both plants are so intertwined so as to make removal impossible without destroying the wheat, so they allow the crop to grow to harvest, when the heads look completely different by that stage, so its easy to tell one from the other.....they don't look the same at all.

Transfer that parable to what we know about how Christendom came to be....the "weeds" were sown "while men were sleeping"....this is when Christians 'fell asleep' spiritually in those early centuries after the death of the apostles, and began to add things to what Jesus taught and went on to adopt pagan beliefs and concepts and grafted them over ambiguous verses in the Bible.....this is what Jesus and his apostles predicted to happen.....the divided mess that Christendom became is proof that Jesus Christ has never set foot in her. It is the reason why he can say at the judgment...."I never knew you"....."NEVER" means "not ever".

Are those who accuse others of promoting false doctrines, themselves promoting false doctrines that have been around so long that no one questions them....and if they do.....they are silenced! Does this sound familiar?

I think in this case you do what you are accusing Christendom of doing. Revelation details these are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. Calling 144,000 Jews Jehovah’s Witnesses is kind of like calling red blue. I don’t know of any other religion that makes such a claim (though I wouldn’t be surprised). I don’t intend to argue with you over your beliefs I just find this one strange and not supported by scripture. I haven’t posted all my beliefs or even what denomination I consider closest to my beliefs so I don’t know how you can make any judgments other than I’m not a JW. You will call me a Trinitarian but to me Trinity is just a word for something we don’t understand. I think the first chapter of John makes clear who Jesus is and I think you do something that we all do. Much like YECs start with the premise that the earth is 6,000 years old then look for evidence that supports their position you approach scripture the same way, you look for what supports your position. I don’t mean this as a personal attack we all do it. Though we deny it we all have bias ( yes, even you). . If I asked you what your favorite scriptures are they would probably be those that affirm your beliefs. We’re probably all guilty of that. You are very knowledgeable but you are also very condescending. You might reach more people by not insulting their intelligence and overloading them with information. I didn’t mean to insult you by saying your belief was strange maybe uncommon is a better word. I don’t want to be your enemy I just disagree with you. Oh and @BARNEY BRIGHT can speak for himself I’m sure, he seems like an intelligent person.

 

[RLT63]

Yes we do there is the 144000 who have the heavenly hope then those of great crowd with the earthly hope, but the 144,000 are not made up of just jews, that's what I was saying.

Okay I don’t mean to be insulting or disrespectful I just disagree.

 

[bbyrd009]

So I'll continue to believe until I'm shown from the scriptures that I'm in error

ha no you will not either lol
but idc tbh
it is your cock-sureness that Scripture informs me makes you deceived, wadr

Yes we do there is the 144000 who have the heavenly hope then those of great crowd with the earthly hope, but the 144,000 are not made up of just jews, that's what I was saying.

“its like this and like that and like this”

i hope you get that i am only suggesting you allow for the possibility that your JW handlers do not have everything in the future nailed down ok

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Okay I don’t mean to be insulting or disrespectful I just disagree.

Most people do, we all must make our choice what truth the scriptures are teaching. I understand that. But just as you disagree with me I disagree with what most people teach is the truth from the scriptures. I don't believe the True God is a torturous person. I believe when most people see the word torment in the scriptures they believe it can only mean literal pain from fire. But the scriptures show this is impossible because human beings don't have any kind of intelligent person in their flesh and blood human bodies. The scriptures show that after God formed the flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground he blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and it was the flesh and blood human body that became a living soul or living person. So human beings don't have living souls or have living persons in their flesh and blood human body. Human beings are living souls or living persons. So human beings don't have living souls or living persons in their flesh and blood human body that separated at death. So it's impossible for a human being who is a living soul or living person to feel anything when a he/she dies. The flesh and blood human body ceases to exist as a living soul or living person so since there is no living person in existence when a human dies it's impossible for him/her to feel anything after death. If a human being who is a living soul or living person were able to feel, smell, talk, see, think, then that human being isn't dead. So anyone saying a human being feels, smells, thinks, after that human being dies they're incorrect when saying that or believing that.