The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[IndianaRob]

What do you mean? It's both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain that will be caught up so Paul could say "we" regardless of whether he ended up being one of the dead in Christ or one of those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.

You’re adding your interpretation to what Paul said. If Paul would’ve meant what you said then Paul would’ve said “then THOSE that are alive and remain….”.

Paul was not in the dark about the subject, Paul knew full well what he was talking about just like I know what he was talking about. What I don’t understand is why people won’t let the Bible just say what it says so we can come to truth.

If you take the view that the putting forth then we that are alive are PREVENTING those that are asleep. Why are we preventing them?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

When we as believers leave this world we don’t go to heaven UNCLOTHED, we are changed, we put off this corruptible body and change into the incorruptible body.

Meanwhile the Old Testament saint are still stuck in Abraham’s bosom waiting on what?

 

[The Light]

Every time you allege that it proves to be a lie. Why do you keep doing that?

I won't waste my time digging up the facts at this point. Keep it up and I'll have to again prove which one of us has a problem with being truthful.

 

[The Light]

Every time you allege that it proves to be a lie. Why do you keep doing that?

Yeah the proof is in the pudding.

 

[IndianaRob]

People please stop spreading the rapture heresy.

The rapture is a lie and it’s covering up one of the most important doctrines in the Bible. That doctrine is BELIEVERS IN CHRIST NEVER DIE.

Enoch is the model for how all believers leave this world. ENOCH DIED but he did not SEE his death because he was taken to heaven and then his body fell to the ground DEAD.

We’re told in Hebrews that Enoch did not SEE death.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Then a few verses later we are told that ENOCH DIED along with all the other saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We should comfort one another with these words not TURN IT INTO A LIE.

 

[rwb]

But why call that the day of the Lord when the DOTL involves judgment and wrath upon the lost, and that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night? It might be different if you weren't connecting it with this same DOTL that comes like a thief in the night and that you were meaning something else instead.

Try this David, call it the age or epoch of time of the Lord. Because 'day' is defined as both 'a' specific day, or an age/era/epoch of time. All that is written, including judgment and wrath upon the lost shall come during this day/age/era/epoch of time. The same time John symbolically writes "a thousand years." The final day of this day/age/era/epoch of time the prophets foretell is the coming day of the Lord, shall come as a thief in the night for those who are perishing. This same day of the Lord that shall have an end or the last day of the Lord when the seventh angel begins to sound that Christ has come again and this age/era/epoch of time shall be no longer.

 

[The Light]

There is no commentary that supports your paradigm. It is only Amils that can do that.

Yeah, only Amils need to provide commentary because their claims are not in scripture. A premil can just post the scripture as the scripture does the talking.

An Amil has to explain.............no, no the 144,000 are not of the 12 tribes as the Word states. We have decided they are the Church. Pay no attention to what the Word says, only believe what an Amil makes up.

Davidpt addresses a post in detail occasionally but never comes back to answer the multiple holes in his arguments. That has been his modus operandi for years. His avoidance only serves to reinforce the Amil paradigm.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here? Where is any protracted trib period in here? Where are survivors? Nowhere!

Nice. You just run 1 Thes 4 right into 1 Thes 5 without identifying the verses are now in chapter 5. The conversation has shifted from the rapture of the Church to the TIMES AND SEASONS. There is no need for Paul to write about the times and seasons because they knew that the gathering takes place before the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the day of His wrath.

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

There is no rapture AFTER the day Lord. The gathering is BEFORE the day of the Lord.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day.

In this instance YES. Paul is talking about the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal which occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord. You think there is a rapture after Jesus comes with the armies of heaven, after wrath. You are in error.

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

Exactly it is the righteous that escape before the day of the Lord, the day of His wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

The wicked do not escape. They will remain for Gods wrath.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue,

No one argues that. The coming of the Lord BEFORE wrath is the second coming. You are continually confusing the coming the Lord at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath to the coming of the Lord with the armies of heaven.

and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

The coming of the Lord with the armies of heaven is that third coming of Revelation 19. It has nothing to do with the second coming and second rapture BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to His Chosen. The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the Great Tribulation.

At the end of the Great Tribulation................that is when they say "peace and safety" The Great Tribulation is OVER, they say peace and safety and then Jesus returns at the 6th seal and the world is cast into the wrath of God and they will not escape.

 

[MA2444]

Again you quote two passages that do not teach what you advocate on this forum. They actually contradict your whole thesis. That is why you do not give any commentary. There is no commentary that supports your paradigm. It is only Amils that can do that. Davidpt addresses a post in detail occasionally but never comes back to answer the multiple holes in his arguments. That has been his modus operandi for years. His avoidance only serves to reinforce the Amil paradigm.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here? Where is any protracted trib period in here? Where are survivors? Nowhere!

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

I didnt exegete it for you because it's obviously clear, duh. We are not appointed to wrath, period.

Now of course you dont believe that ad so you have no exegis of your own to chime in about where your brother in Christ is wrong about those verses.. You "avoid" doing that. and here instead you remain true to form...avoidance, inversion and just plain BS.

So, good luck with that.

 

[MA2444]

1. Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
2. Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
3. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

Go find it yourself. You supposed to be some big n bad knowledgable one here so let's hear something coherant and relevant from you instead of pointless babbling.

 

[MA2444]

1. Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
2. Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
3. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

How about:

1. Who is to be kept from the time of trial that comes to the earth in Revelation 3:10 ??
2. Who is scripture talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ? Who is not appointed to wrath?
3. Are you able to stick to a conversation and when you ask me a question and I answer and give scriptures...Not change the subject but answer in accordance with what I said?

 

[MA2444]

Every time you allege that it proves to be a lie. Why do you keep doing that?

WHy would you accuse your Brother in Christ falsely?

All anyone has to do is to read the thread and see, you did say that.

 

[WPM]

The Prophesies I gave in #3333, do tell of a time when Jesus will reign on earth as His title says: ....King of Kings and Lord of Lords......Rev19:16
We are told six times what that period of His earthly reign will be - a thousand years.

Holding your breath would be good for you, maybe the truth of the Prophetic Word will dawn upon you. If you stick with false beliefs, the end times will come as a surprise.

Ok. So you have nothing. Revelation 19 is not chronological to Revelation 20. It is the 6th of 7 parallels. All flesh is destroyed in Revelation 19. Check it out. It blows your theology apart.

 

[WPM]

How about:

1. Who is to be kept from the time of trial that comes to the earth in Revelation 3:10 ??
2. Who is scripture talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ? Who is not appointed to wrath?
3. Are you able to stick to a conversation and when you ask me a question and I answer and give scriptures...Not change the subject but answer in accordance with what I said?

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

 

[WPM]

I didnt exegete it for you because it's obviously clear, duh. We are not appointed to wrath, period.

Now of course you dont believe that ad so you have no exegis of your own to chime in about where your brother in Christ is wrong about those verses.. You "avoid" doing that. and here instead you remain true to form...avoidance, inversion and just plain BS.

So, good luck with that.

You did not exegete because you do not know how to do it. The next one will be your first. You do not know how to rebut either. All you can do is insult, bully, name-call and avoid. This is what you do. You cannot let the textbook for self or it would immediately disallow Pretrib. You cannot break a text down and show the sense of the sacred text.

The "wrath" in view is the "sudden destruction" that "they [the wicked] shall not escape" from in the text. This forbids Pretrib and exposes it for what it is - modern man-made error.

My last post remains avoided. I will therefore repeat.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here? Where is any protracted trib period in here? Where are survivors? Nowhere!

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[WPM]

Yeah, only Amils need to provide commentary because their claims are not in scripture. A premil can just post the scripture as the scripture does the talking.

An Amil has to explain.............no, no the 144,000 are not of the 12 tribes as the Word states. We have decided they are the Church. Pay no attention to what the Word says, only believe what an Amil makes up.


Nice. You just run 1 Thes 4 right into 1 Thes 5 without identifying the verses are now in chapter 5. The conversation has shifted from the rapture of the Church to the TIMES AND SEASONS. There is no need for Paul to write about the times and seasons because they knew that the gathering takes place before the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the day of His wrath.



There is no rapture AFTER the day Lord. The gathering is BEFORE the day of the Lord.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


In this instance YES. Paul is talking about the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal which occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord. You think there is a rapture after Jesus comes with the armies of heaven, after wrath. You are in error.



Exactly it is the righteous that escape before the day of the Lord, the day of His wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The wicked do not escape. They will remain for Gods wrath.


No one argues that. The coming of the Lord BEFORE wrath is the second coming. You are continually confusing the coming the Lord at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath to the coming of the Lord with the armies of heaven.


The coming of the Lord with the armies of heaven is that third coming of Revelation 19. It has nothing to do with the second coming and second rapture BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to His Chosen. The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the Great Tribulation.

At the end of the Great Tribulation................that is when they say "peace and safety" The Great Tribulation is OVER, they say peace and safety and then Jesus returns at the 6th seal and the world is cast into the wrath of God and they will not escape.

You show an ignorance of the format of the letters of Paul. There were no chapters in the original epistle. Hello! Even if there was, what does that prove? There is one final future coming of Christ. The reason you say what you do is because 1 Thess 4 and 5 demolish Pretrib and support Amil.

Also, Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. We should state, the symbolism here should not be confused with Christ’s illustration of the vine in John 15. The earth is depicted as one overall symbolic ripe vine that is ready for harvesting. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

John the Baptist testified of Christ and of the general judgment, in Matthew 3:12, saying, “he will throughly purge his floor, and (1) gather his wheat into the garner; but he will (2) katakausei up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’. Christ uses similar language to that of John the Baptist in our previous passage, in Matthew 13:30, when speaking of the wheat and the tares, saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) ‘utterly burn up’ or ‘wholly consume’ them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” And verse 40 continues, “As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’ in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.”

 

[WPM]

Go find it yourself.

No!

 

[The Light]

You show an ignorance of the format of the letters of Paul.

No. I think it be ye.

There were no chapters in the original epistle.

Right. And then they made chapters. I wonder why?

Hello! Even if there was, what does that prove?

It proves that they recognized that the subject has changed. However, you don't understand that change.

There is one final future coming of Christ.

Baloney comes to mind. We can prove He comes at the 6th seal. We can prove He comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. We can prove He comes with the armies of heaven. And we can prove He comes in an hour that you think not.

The reason you say what you do is because 1 Thess 4 and 5 demolish Pretrib and support Amil.

All talk. No scripture. You haven't even figured out He is coming in an hour that you think not...........just as He claimed.

Also, Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age.

WOW. I AM IN SHOCK. YOU ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT SCRIPTURE. GOOD JOB!!!!!!

We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. We should state, the symbolism here should not be confused with Christ’s illustration of the vine in John 15. The earth is depicted as one overall symbolic ripe vine that is ready for harvesting. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

This harvest occurs at the 6th seal, not at the end of the trumpets of wrath.

John the Baptist testified of Christ and of the general judgment, in Matthew 3:12, saying, “he will throughly purge his floor, and (1) gather his wheat into the garner; but he will (2) katakausei up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’. Christ uses similar language to that of John the Baptist in our previous passage, in Matthew 13:30, when speaking of the wheat and the tares, saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) ‘utterly burn up’ or ‘wholly consume’ them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” And verse 40 continues, “As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’ in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.”

Much to learn you have. Please note that in Revelation 14 which occurs at the 6th seal, it is the righteous that are gathered first. You don't understand what you are reading as you think that the Lord only comes once. These verses, plus many, many others prove that your doctrine is in error.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

Go find it yourself.

Why would he. He is not searching for the truth.

 

[Taken]

This is all incoherent rambling.

Thanks for sharing WPM…and agreeing (rwb) when you are stumped regarding spiritual understanding.
May God Bless your little confused hearts.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So He's Christ to those who are raptured, but Jesus to those who are resurrected.

What happens to those who confuse the names, and call Christ, Jesus; or call Jesus, Christ?

Why did Jesus ASK His disciples…??
What say you?

Mark 8:
[27] And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

AND

[29] And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

AND…before answering WHY, consider WHAT Jesus SAID to those who KNEW the answer to His question…

CONSIDER “HOW” the Disciples KNEW the answer to His QUESTION…

Matt 16:
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 30
[30] And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Matt 16:
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

WHY? What say you?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rwb]

Thanks for sharing WPM…and agreeing (rwb) when you are stumped regarding spiritual understanding.
May God Bless your little confused hearts.

Glory to God,
Taken

What is incoherent is making a distinction between being IN CHRIST or IN JESUS as if saying in Christ or in Jesus does not mean the same thing??? That is not only incoherent, but a bit bizarre! How can anyone professing to be of Christ not understand that Jesus is Christ? Jesus is the personal name our Lord was given, and Christ is His identity as our anointed Messiah/Savior and Lord.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.