The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Taken]

The pre, mid, nor post trib positions can ever be reconciled because there is no such thing as the “rapture” and is proven in this verse.

Your understanding similar to many others is off kilter.

Not every individual thinks, believes, does the same…NOR is the the END of their mortality the SAME.

What is known…is God exists.
What is known…is mortal men were created and made by God.
What is known…Gods “creation” is finished, but Gods “making” continues.

What is known…is Gods “making” is every individual mans OFFERED CHOICE to accept or reject.

What is known…is God SHALL exercise His authority and power according to His Order, His Way, His Will, regarding every single individual manKind of beings FINAL outcome.

What is known…is Every mans CHOICE…dictates…when, where, how, why…his own destiny shall be manifested.

What is known…By, through, of Gods authority and power…He ONCE destroyed the habit of manKind…ie the Earth…and the men remaining upon the face of the Earth during Gods destruction.

What is known…By, through, of Gods authority and power…He SHALL AGAIN destroy the habitat of manKind…ie the Earth…and BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER the Earths destruction…He (unlike the first destruction of Earth) SHALL BE ….
** Allowing Killing, of particular men.
** Saving souls, of particular men.
** Forgiving, Sanctifying, Justifying particular men To become MADE soul saved.
** IOW on a large SCALE …. SEPARATING … the DIVIDED FROM Him and the DIVIDED WITH Him…

IN Brief…

Before the second and last trib to be sent down from Heaven…
The Already Saved and Quickened…SHALL be removed bodily, soul, spirit from the face of the Earth…exclusively called the event of they being caught up to the clouds, in the air, in English called a RAPTURE.

During the second and last trib…
Two witness servants of God shall Preach Gods Truth IN Jerusalem, for any and all to hear…trust, believe, deny, reject.

During the second and last trib….
A Lamb and 144,000 - 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel, shall congregate on Mt ZION openly preaching the word of God expressly to the 12 Tribes of Israel from their own tribesmen…to hear…trust, believe, deny, reject.

Believers of the Tribesmen shall be KILLED…by satan who is present and allowed to use his power to Kill those who reject “him”.

Such believing, saved Tribesmen’s SAVED souls…shall depart their dead bodies and rise up to heaven “together”…fulfilling Gods promise to save His faithful people ISRAEL.
(Not a rapture, Not a resurrection…called an “ascension”).

For ALL others remaining on the face of the earth…during the trib….primarily the Gentiles…a SINGLE holy ANGEL servant of God shall Preach the Word of God…that they, may choose to trust to believe, accept, deny, reject.
And they also bodily killed IF they believe and accept, and their soul saved, and departed out of their dead body, and such saved soul ascended up to heaven.

Rejectors shall be killed and their departed souls sent to hell to wait judgement day.

There is 1,000 years in the mix…of the bodily dead saved souls who have risen to heaven DURING THE TRIB…And remain for 1,000 yrs.
AND
souls, spirits, risen bodies of men, Raptured…AND returned to the earth with the Lord…
AND OF mortal believers who survived the trib…occupying the earth…and VOID of the presence of satan and other devils.

During the 1,000 years, mortals will continue to believe, trust, reject, deny….and physically die…with saved or unsaved souls…such souls rising to heaven, or being sent to hell…to wait judgement.

After the 1,000 years…Satan and his devil followers are released to once again reek havoc and foolish lying influences on existing mortals….who Come against the Lord Kingdom on Earth, and are smitten.

A Rapture…is exclusive to a few men…whose soul is save, whose spirit is quickened BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH…(being spiritually crucified bodily with Christ Jesus)…
The are NOT subject to participate in Gods second and last tribulation, sent down from Heaven…The are RAISE WHOLE…body, soul and spirit…at the calling of their Lord. To reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Others absolutely DO become saved during the trib, and their Saved souls rise up to heaven…Not a rapture…Is an ascension.

Their bodies shall be raised…ON a new earth, their spirits quickened, their saved sous returned to their new bodies.

The rejectors bodies shall also be raise…to hell, their unsaved souls returned to their bodies…they bow down to their Judge, Creator, Maker….and then all life removed from they and their body and soul destroyed in hell, and they forgotten…2 nd Resurrection.

Pre…Mid…Post…? ya well…it depends ON Who, what, when, why….is an individuals standing “WITH, IN, or WITHOUT” the Lord God.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rwb]

Something I can at least agree with anyway. It's basically the timing of it where you and I don't appear to be on the same page in regards to. You think it already began thousands of years ago, I don't. I think it is a one time only event that hasn't occurred yet. But when it does it will be something that won't be affecting the saved the way it will be affecting the unsaved.

Because I understand the day of the Lord began when the Lord came to earth a man! His day which is the time when the Gospel of salvation is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth is this age of grace through faith. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete then the day of the Lord that began so long ago shall end with Him coming again when the last trumpet sounds and this time given for building the Kingdom of God shall be no longer. The only time remaining for this earth after the seventh trumpet begins to sound will be Satan's little season, but prior to his little season the saints both those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive at this time, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and the wrath of God will come to this earth as fire that shall come down from God out of heaven.

 

[Taken]

Unlike Pretrib where they think God can only protect them from His wrath by removing them first, no one needed to be removed per the Exodus 10 account in order for it to be dark over the entire land, but where the children of Israel were dwelling in this same land, they had light in their dwellings. Pretribbers act as if some things are impossible for God to do, that He can't enact His wrath upon the lost if the church is still here at the time since Pretribbers apparently think the church would be affected by this wrath as well, if they are still here. The thing is though, great tribulation is not God's wrath, the DOTL is and follows after great tribulation according to Matthew 24:29, for one.

It is not ABOUT what a pre-tribber THINKS God CAN DO….rather it is about WHAT Order and Way God has decided to DO regarding men who were WILLING to trust and Heartfully commit trust unto the Lord God.


Seriously….God could have set Noah and his family upon on a secluded piece of high ground….but He didn’t…The entire ground was covered with water with the express intent to kill every oxygen breathing mammal.

Gods Order and Way to preserve Noah and his families Life from drowning….was to RAISE THEM UP above the earth…

God has a similar Order and Way for millions of His faithful to be removed from Gods tribulation and wrath that will ONCE AGAIN be sent down from Heaven.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davidpt]

Because I understand the day of the Lord began when the Lord came to earth a man! His day which is the time when the Gospel of salvation is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth is this age of grace through faith.

But why call that the day of the Lord when the DOTL involves judgment and wrath upon the lost, and that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night? It might be different if you weren't connecting it with this same DOTL that comes like a thief in the night and that you were meaning something else instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But why call that the day of the Lord when the DOTL involves judgment and wrath upon the lost, and that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night? It might be different if you weren't connecting it with this same DOTL that comes like a thief in the night and that you were meaning something else instead.

Yeah, it gets confusing when not everyone is using the same definitions for terms that are being discussed. The discussions become pointless if one person is using one definition for something being discussed while another person is using a different definition. The terms need to be defined and clarified so that people know exactly what is being discussed.

Another example of this is how some people (pretribs mainly) refer to the tribulation only as God's wrath while others refer to it as a time of major deception, increased wickedness and Satan's wrath or persecution against believers and others may use that term in some other way. This has led to one person ridiculously trying to say that I'm pretrib because I believe the rapture will occur before God's wrath comes down when Christ comes. Which is obviously ridiculous. That would be pre-wrath, if anything. As in a one moment pre-wrath rapture.

 

[MA2444]

Again, no Scripture and no exegesis. All we have is your insults and avoidance.

Here I'll give you a couple scriptures to chew on. We are not subject to Wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,,,,/KJV

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

 

[WPM]

I gave you some scriptures. In post 1264 go read them.

Bring them here and actually exegete them and then we can move forward.

 

[The Light]

I gave you some scriptures. In post 1264 go read them.

Always the same with him. He demands everything, claims avoidance and never addresses posts unless he thinks he can skate by.

 

[The Light]

Not for the church it isn't a dreadful day.

I know. They are in heaven. Do I need to repost the scriptures or can you remember?

You're only looking at half of the story.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For those of us who are in the light rather than the darkness it will be a glorious day.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

No. I looked at the whole story. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. There is a rapture at that time and the 144,000 from the twelve tribes are firstfruits of that rapture.

That day will not take them unaware as they will understand that the Lord is coming at the last trump which they know happens on the feast of trumpets.

 

[The Light]

Bring them here and actually exegete them and then we can move forward.

LOL. I still waiting for you to answer my posts from your long cut and paste. I guess you have no answers so we will not be moving forward.

 

[WPM]

LOL. I still waiting for you to answer my posts from your long cut and paste. I guess you have no answers so we will not be moving forward.

The opposite is the truth. You guys avoid everything because your theology does not abide biblical scrutiny.

 

[The Light]

The opposite is the truth. You guys avoid everything because your theology does not abide biblical scrutiny.

You do realize you have the Church going through the wrath of God when the Church is not appointed to wrath, don't you?

 

[Keraz]

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong.

This belief is wrong and is a rejection of many scriptures. Zechariah 14:16-21 for example, and Isaiah 2:2-4, Psalms 2:7=8, +
There is a sentence and a verse break between 1 Corinthians 15:23- 24 and there is a thousand years between the glorious Return of King Jesus and His handing the Kingdom back to God.

Paul goes on to say; 1 Cor 15:25-28 For He, Jesus; is destined to reign until God has put all enemies under Hs feet. And the last enemy is Death.......
We are clearly told when Death will be no more; Revelation 21:4; AFTER the Millennium and when new heavens and earth come and in Eternity.
But the truth of Jesus being destined to reign, is the clincher that destroys the AMill belief. Jesus was acclaimed as King, but was killed 3 days later, so He is in heaven now, awaiting His enemies to be defeated. Which will happen at Armageddon, by the Sword of the Word.
After the thousand year reign, as we are told in Revelation 20:7-10, there will be another rebellion. Another total wipeout, by fire from heaven and Satan is finally disposed of.

In the Light of the whole Bible narrative, to believe the finish of the earth and humankind as we know it, happens when Jesus Returns, is gross error, it denies Jesus His reward and means that God's plans for His perfect Creation have failed.

Note to you and any who disagree with the above: Be very careful to not violate scripture in any way. It is preferable to keep quite, rather than make rebuttals which contradict the Prophetic Word.

 

[WPM]

You do realize you have the Church going through the wrath of God when the Church is not appointed to wrath, don't you?

When have I ever said that? That is another Pretrib lie. Why can you not tell the truth?

 

[WPM]

This belief is wrong and is a rejection of many scriptures. Zechariah 14:16-21 for example, and Isaiah 2:2-4, Psalms 2:7=8, +
There is a sentence and a verse break between 1 Corinthians 15:23- 24 and there is a thousand years between the glorious Return of King Jesus and His handing the Kingdom back to God.

Paul goes on to say; 1 Cor 15:25-28 For He, Jesus; is destined to reign until God has put all enemies under Hs feet. And the last enemy is Death.......
We are clearly told when Death will be no more; Revelation 21:4; AFTER the Millennium and when new heavens and earth come and in Eternity.
But the truth of Jesus being destined to reign, is the clincher that destroys the AMill belief. Jesus was acclaimed as King, but was killed 3 days later, so He is in heaven now, awaiting His enemies to be defeated. Which will happen at Armageddon, by the Sword of the Word.
After the thousand year reign, as we are told in Revelation 20:7-10, there will be another rebellion. Another total wipeout, by fire from heaven and Satan is finally disposed of.

In the Light of the whole Bible narrative, to believe the finish of the earth and humankind as we know it, happens when Jesus Returns, is gross error, it denies Jesus His reward and means that God's plans for His perfect Creation have failed.

Note to you and any who disagree with the above: Be very careful to not violate scripture in any way. It is preferable to keep quite, rather than make rebuttals which contradict the Prophetic Word.

Again, you do your usual: just give random references that have absolutely no mention of a future millennium and imagine that that is going to somehow negate the truth. That's not the way it works.

Exegete the passages and show us where your thousand years is mentioned in these Old Testament references. I will not hold my breath!

Jesus is reigning right now at the right hand of majesty on high, thus fulfilling 1 Cor 15:25-28. I know this does not fit in with your big devil and small God theology. But it is truth!

 

[WPM]

Here I'll give you a couple scriptures to chew on. We are not subject to Wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,,,,/KJV

Again you quote two passages that do not teach what you advocate on this forum. They actually contradict your whole thesis. That is why you do not give any commentary. There is no commentary that supports your paradigm. It is only Amils that can do that. Davidpt addresses a post in detail occasionally but never comes back to answer the multiple holes in his arguments. That has been his modus operandi for years. His avoidance only serves to reinforce the Amil paradigm.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here? Where is any protracted trib period in here? Where are survivors? Nowhere!

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[WPM]

Here I'll give you a couple scriptures to chew on. We are not subject to Wrath...

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

1. Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
2. Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
3. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

 

[WPM]

LOL. I still waiting for you to answer my posts from your long cut and paste. I guess you have no answers so we will not be moving forward.

Every time you allege that it proves to be a lie. Why do you keep doing that?

 

[IndianaRob]

All who have physically died in faith are the dead in Christ.

When Jesus spoke these words remember He was about to resurrect faithful Lazarus from physical death, returning life to his mortal body. If we try to read this as meaning that mortal humans of flesh and blood would never die, we might conclude that Jesus is a bit off his rocker, because Lazarus, whom He loved had certainly died.

The only way to understand what Christ means when He tells us the whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die is to understand He was not speaking of human flesh, but of human spirits who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Those who have the Holy Spirit will die physically, but since the advent of Christ coming to make atonement for sin, and conquer death they are eternally spiritually alive even believers physically die. That's why Christ also tells us not to fear those who might kill our body but cannot kill the soul. (Mt 10:28) Because believers continue to be living souls, as spiritual body in heaven through the Holy Spirit within.

Christ sent His Spirit to be in whosoever believe in Him. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, Christ will physically return for both those who have already died in Him, and those who are still physically alive at His coming. Then we shall all together inherit everlasting life in immortal & incorruptible physical body to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

What happened to Elijah?

 

[Keraz]

Again, you do your usual: just give random references that have absolutely no mention of a future millennium and imagine that that is going to somehow negate the truth. That's not the way it works.

Exegete the passages and show us where your thousand years is mentioned in these Old Testament references. I will not hold my breath!

Jesus is reigning right now at the right hand of majesty on high, thus fulfilling 1 Cor 15:25-28. I know this does not fit in with your big devil and small God theology. But it is truth!

The Prophesies I gave in #3333, do tell of a time when Jesus will reign on earth as His title says: ....King of Kings and Lord of Lords......Rev19:16
We are told six times what that period of His earthly reign will be - a thousand years.

Holding your breath would be good for you, maybe the truth of the Prophetic Word will dawn upon you. If you stick with false beliefs, the end times will come as a surprise.