The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rwb]

Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he can't deceive the nations. He is currently deceiving the nations, so he is not bound

If Satan is still deceiving all the peoples in all the nations how are so many from all the nations of the world saved? How is the Kingdom of God being built as the Gospel is proclaimed if not through the power of the Holy Spirit as He gives everlasting life to whosoever believes from among all the nations of the world? Satan is no longer deceiving them! Where do you get the idea that Satan's binding will bring peace upon this earth for one thousand years? Please use the Scriptures to prove what you allege!

 

[Davidpt]

If Satan is still deceiving all the peoples in all the nations how are so many from all the nations of the world saved? How is the Kingdom of God being built as the Gospel is proclaimed if not through the power of the Holy Spirit as He gives everlasting life to whosoever believes from among all the nations of the world? Satan is no longer deceiving them! Where do you get the idea that Satan's binding will bring peace upon this earth for one thousand years? Please use the Scriptures to prove what you allege!

If satan is no longer deceiving the nations, what is preventing every single person from being saved? Assuming you are correct, why isn't everyone being saved since there is no one to deceive them?

 

[MA2444]

How about backing up your claims with quotes and real evidence.

To you? Because you already have it in your mind to reject it. If I quoted, "Jesus Wept..." to you you'd say it meant Jesus drank wine. So...

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[MA2444]

One of the main purposes of Jesus coming was to do away with earthly Jerusalem and bring in heavenly Jerusalem.

The way I read it, that's not until after the Millenium and then happens, I saw a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem comes down from the sky to the new earth

 

[rwb]

It says that he will not be able to deceive the nations. Everything you just said about what Satan is NOT able to do, he is currently doing.

Edit to add: John specifies the content of his deception later in the chapter.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

John's point is to say that for a thousand years, Israel will be able to live in peace without fear of being attacked by her enemies. Even when Satan is released, his armies will be destroyed by fire.

Israel is not living without fear from her enemies. Therefore Satan is not bound and the Millennium hasn't begun yet.

Again, opinions without biblical proofs??? Do you even know how Gog and Magog are defined? Satan is set free to deceive the nations of those who are Gog (antichrists) and (Magog) antichristians, but not to bring peace to the world, not even Israel. Rev 20 clearly shows Satan gathering those who belong to him, to destroy, if possible, the last of the Church (Christians) still alive on the earth when he is set free. Instead of succeeding, both he and those who follow after him will be destroyed by the fire that shall come down from heaven, and their final fate shall be the lake of fire.

 

[MA2444]

If there is a correlation between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, maybe you would present the parallel. I do not see the connection at all.

We know that...you dont see it.

 

[MA2444]

You believe Satan is bound and then there shall be peace on this earth? Is that what the Scriptures tell you?

What? Right now? Of course satan is not bound right now! Just look around you and it's obvious. Government is corrupt and oppresses the people, Trannyformers and gays are trying to take over the world, the women all expect the princess treatment from men with acccountability or traditional values, there's wars and fighting all over the globe...Shall I go on?

Satan is certainly not bound at this time! How could anyone think that? That would be Kukoo.

 

[rwb]

I think the point you were making is “that he should deceive the nations no more” really means that Satans power is only curtailed.

I don’t agree with that.

Where does Scripture show there shall be peace on THIS earth when Satan is bound?

 

[MA2444]

One of the main purposes of Jesus coming was to do away with earthly Jerusalem and bring in heavenly Jerusalem.

Aw, I'll need some scriptures with that to even consider it.

 

[rwb]

When you tell me “that he should deceive the nations no more” doesn’t mean that he should deceive the nations no more, there’s nothing more I can say.

Do you agree the deception that Satan had power over was holding the nations of the world in bondage to fear of death?

Hebrews 2:15 (KJV) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Do you also agree this bondage to hold nations of the world in bondage to fear of death was broken through the power of Christ to resurrect from the dead? Does this not show that the ability of Satan to deceive the nations of the world through fear of death has been broken for all throughout the nations who believe the Gospel no longer fear death because Christ has defeated death and promised that all who believe have also defeated death?

Hebrews 2:12-18 (KJV) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

There is no indication to be found in the Scriptures of this imagined peace upon THIS earth for one thousand literal years. Why would Christ return to physically set up His Kingdom of peace for one thousand years since the Word of God assures us the Kingdom of God shall never perish? Do you really believe Christ will come again to set up a physical Kingdom of peace on an earth that shall be utterly burned up?

 

[IndianaRob]

The way I read it, that's not until after the Millenium and then happens, I saw a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem comes down from the sky to the new earth

I completely agree and each of the passages about the millennium and heavenly Jerusalem give clues as to what the millennial reign is, how long it lasts and when it will happen.

There’s no way to understand the millennial reign without reconciling all of those passages and when you do it’s crystal clear at least the when it happened part.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You then think when the last trumpet sounds, that in that same split second the great white throne judgment begins and concludes?

No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that I believe Jesus will destroy His enemies who are on the earth in a moment just like we all will be changed in a moment. I believe at that point time ends and eternity begins and the judgment takes place in eternity.

Why not let context guide you here instead?

Why not let scripture be your guide? You believe in a doctrine that says there will be two different judgment days which you cannot support with scripture. Scripture has both the saved and lost all being judged at the same time, as indicated in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. You keep trying to get around that, but you can't.

Death obviously still exists after the last trumpet sounds, the fact there are lost people still alive after the last trumpet sounds.

Did you read what I said or not? I said that I believe the lost who are living at that point will all be killed quickly while the last trumpet is still sounding. So, I disagree with what you're saying here.

Also, it indicates at the seventh trumpet that it's "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev 11:18). When are the dead judged? Before or after the thousand years? I'll give you a hint. The judgment of the dead is portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15.

And until all of them are dead first and that they then rise from the dead, there can't be the great white throne judgment in the meantime.

Yes, that's obvious. So? I hope you don't think you're proving anything here to support your doctrine because you most certainly are not.

So, IOW, what you are apparently trying to apply universally about death being swallowed up in victory is not being applied universally at all, it is only being applied to those that have gotten victory through Christ. Nothing, as in zero, pertaining to 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is being applied to any of the lost, especially this---Death is swallowed up in victory, and one reason why is this-- But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ(verse 57) . No one could possibly think verse 57 also applies to the lost that get cast into the LOF, right?

Yet, you have people who are in Christ dying after that in your doctrine which contradicts what Paul said. If anyone in Christ died after that then it wouldn't be true that death was swallowed up in victory. Also, do you honestly think that Paul was not referring back to what he had said a little earlier that the last enemy to be destroyed is death? It's clear to me that he was. He may not have specifically referenced the lost in 1 Cor 15:51-57, but it's clear to me that he was giving the timing of what he said in 1 Cor 15:26 in that passage. No one will die after the last/seventh trumpet sounds. We (believers) will all be changed to have immortal bodies, the living unbelievers will all be killed, and no one will ever die again.

There's also the fact that Paul does not indicate that there is any period of time between Christ's second coming and "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Cor 15:22-24). That's yet another scripture that you try to change to make it fit your doctrine. Jesus said His people will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father at the end of the age (Matthew 13:40-43). Do you believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)?

Quit saying that there is no more death once the last trumpet sounds, since that is being dishonest with the text,

LOL. Did you not read when I told you not to tell me what to do? Quit acting like a tough guy who can tell me what to do. It's not going to happen. I'm not being dishonest with the text at all. At the seventh trumpet it says those who destroy the earth will be destroyed. I believe that will happen just as quickly as we're all changed to have immortal bodies, so I believe that happens before the seventh trumpet stops sounding. You can't tell me what to believe.

the fact the last trumpet obviously sounds before all the lost back on earth are even dead first,

How do you know this? That's not a fact at all. What are you basing that on?

Do you have the last trumpet sounding before the dead in Christ are raised and we're all changed to have immortal bodies or do you have that happening while the last trumpet is sounding? Using your logic, if the last trumpet sounds and finishes sounding and then the dead in Christ are raised and we're all changed, then you can't say those things happen at the last trumpet.

and until they are dead first, there can't be the great white throne judgment in the meantime, which means death still exists after the last trumpet sounds. Maybe not for the saved does death still exist at that point, but for the lost it certainly still exists after the last trumpet has sounded.

You are just going out of your way to deny what scripture clearly teaches which is that there will be no more death after Christ returns. It's sad to see you go out of your way to deny the truth the way you do. Again, do you believe the dead in Christ are raised and we're all changed after the last trumpet sounds or while it is sounding?

Tell me this. What mortal unbelievers do you think will survive the return of Christ and what is it about them that would allow them to survive? What would be the difference between them and the rest who are killed?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage indicates that Jesus will destroy "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel or our Lord Jesus Christ" when He returns. Do you believe that? What unbeliever does not fit that description? In 1 Thess 5:2-3 Paul says they will experience "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" on that day. Why do you have any of them escaping His wrath when Paul said "they shall not escape" without indicating that any of them would escape? And then you can read how Peter describes that destruction in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and you can see that no unbeliever can possibly escape it. You can't get around what these passages teach no matter how much you want to.

 

[WPM]

The two aren’t parallels, they’re different aspects of the millennium.

Zechariah’s focus is on the destruction of earthly Jerusalem to bring in heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation 20’s focus is on the resurrection that took place when heavenly Jerusalem replaced earthly Jerusalem.

Reading Zechariah 14 does not look anything like what Premillennialists try to portray. Quite the opposite! It is a debacle. By the way, do you also believe in the restoration of animal sacrifices in your millennium?

 

[IndianaRob]

Where does Scripture show there shall be peace on THIS earth when Satan is bound?

There will never be peace on this earth, peace on earth is only found in Gods “holy mountain” which is heavenly Jerusalem.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does it mention a millennium there? You are making the Bible say what you want.

I can understand why you might think that, since you expect everyone to find passages that use the wording you anticipate.

The OT prophets predict a time when God brings his people back to the land, circumcises their hearts, and causes them to keep his commandments. For his part, he also promises to bring Israel's enemies against her and defeat them while the nations watch.

Amillennialism doesn't believe the OT prophets spoke about actual events and conditions, choosing to "spiritualize" the OT prophetic word to suit the Amillennial view.

Premillennialism believes that the Old Testament prophets spoke about actual events. It recognizes Revelation 20 as a brief summary of the age when Israel will have control over the earth and Jesus will rule over the nations with an iron rod.

 

[WPM]

There will never be peace on this earth, peace on earth is only found in Gods “holy mountain” which is heavenly Jerusalem.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Premils are always thinking natural, physical, temporal and carnal. Amils see the movement away from the Old Testament shadow, picture and type reality to the New Testament spiritual substance, reality and fulfilment. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. The natural man is captivated with the natural, the earthly and the temporal the heavenly man is captivated with the supernatural, the heavenly and the eternal.

The old temporal earthly kingdom of Israel was merely a type of the new spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom that Christ was going to introduce at His first Advent. The whole old covenant structure was always going to be superseded by a better system. As you get into the New Testament you quickly realise that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. The Old Testament was simply an imperfect type of the real.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ.

God urges His people throughout the nations in the last days to stream to His holy mountain. This is obviously talking about an intimate spiritual place with Him, not a geographical location.

Psalm 24:3-4: “Who shall ascend into the hill (or mountain) of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.”

Isaiah 11:9-10: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Isaiah 65:25 describes, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.”

This passage could well be a metaphor indicating the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. It can equally describe the undisturbed nature of the eternal state. It is a fact that many eternal truths are described in a parabolic sense in order to impress the great mystery of eternity to our finite mind.

This seems to symbolically depict the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

 

[rwb]

I believe the nations is talking about all peoples but for the sake of argument let’s just say that it means gentiles. Look around this forum and tell me Satan isn’t deceiving the gentiles.

Before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, only the nation of Israel had been given the Word of God through the prophets and the law. These were to point the nation of Israel to the Messiah/Savior who was to come. The Jewish nation was alone chosen to be light bearers to all the nations of the world. But the nations did not have the Word, the prophets or the law to tell them of the Messiah who would come to redeem people from all the nations of the world. That is the Covenant promise given to Abraham. That a Seed (Messiah/Savior/Christ Jesus our Lord) would come and that the nations of the earth shall be blessed in Him. Remember, Abraham is the father of faithful saints from every nation of the earth.

Genesis 18:18 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Romans 3:1-2 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 9:3-5 (KJV) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The nation of Israel of Old was not faithful, they were disobedient to the Covenant God gave through Abraham. They kept the message of the coming Messiah/Savior to themselves, teaching instead that any peoples who wished to be included with the covenant people called Israel must be obedient to the Levitical Law. Instead of by faith alone, Israel believed that apart from converting to Judaism and obedient to all the Mosaic Law none could be counted in the Covenant of redemption.

For this reason, when Christ came to earth a man, the Gentile nations of the earth were still in darkness and unbelief. Never having known the Gospel, nor the Law, having not the Prophets, and Priests. Until Christ came and proved that bondage to fear of death that Satan held the Gentiles nations in is broken forever to all who hear and believe the Gospel. That is how the cross and resurrection bound Satan. This is how the spirit called Satan, the Devil, and dragon was bound, not literally bound with physical chains and physical pit, but spiritually bound by the power of the Holy Spirit being sent to enter into those who believe, teaching the faithful that in Christ death can no longer hold them in fear. Death is defeated by Christ to whosoever from every nation of the earth believes the Gospel has eternal life.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you saying that the GT hasn't begun yet?
In your view, will the mark of the beast be enforced worldwide or strictly in Israel? I ask because I am curious about the fact that one beast comes from the sea and another beast comes from the land.

I'm supposing that the sea represents the gentiles and the land represents the Jews living in Israel. Do you agree? What do you think?

Apparently worldwide.
I would have to look into the beasts.

 

[rwb]

What? Right now? Of course satan is not bound right now! Just look around you and it's obvious. Government is corrupt and oppresses the people, Trannyformers and gays are trying to take over the world, the women all expect the princess treatment from men with acccountability or traditional values, there's wars and fighting all over the globe...Shall I go on?

Satan is certainly not bound at this time! How could anyone think that? That would be Kukoo.

What is cuckoo is believing there shall be peace on THIS earth for one thousand years! Prove what you allege!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is that right? Doesnt it say in another place, I am the vine and Ye are the branches?

Yes, Isaiah used the vine metaphor to indicate that the coming Messiah—Jesus—would be a direct descendant of Jesse. Why Jesse and not David? Both are true. I think Isaiah is giving a hat tip to 1 Samuel 16, where Samuel is sent to the house of Jesse, seeking a new king to rule over Israel. In other words, the "stem of Jesse" is David, who is the beneficiary of the Davidic Covenant.

We can elaborate on this further, but for now, let's acknowledge that Jesus also used a vine metaphor, albeit for a different purpose. In that context, the Lord taught his future apostles to abide by his teachings and not to branch out independently to form their own following. The apostles were instructed not to create their own disciples; instead, they were to make disciples for Jesus.