The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[IndianaRob]

No, that is not what Paul is talking about. Read the rest of what he said.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Paul is talking here about our natural body that we have now. It is perishable or corruptible. It is mortal. It is dishonorable. It is weak. And Paul is saying it will be raised as a spiritual body that is imperishable (or incorruptible) and will be immortal. It will be "raised in glory" and "in power". You are taking Paul completely out of context.

You realize that the NIV translator added the word body into that verse where it says “the BODY that is sown”. The Greek word is ambiguous.

“Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, that is, sow (literally or figuratively): - sow (-er), receive seed.”

 

[IndianaRob]

So, the wicked were resurrected to eternal punishment "at the resurrection of Christ"?

Yes that’s what Daniel 12:2 says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You realize that the NIV translator added the word body into that verse where it says “the BODY that is sown”. The Greek word is ambiguous.

“Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, that is, sow (literally or figuratively): - sow (-er), receive seed.”1

The context is in relation to the body. That is clear.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV): It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes that’s what Daniel 12:2 says.

No, that is not what Daniel 12:2 says at all. How can you think that's referring to souls instead of bodies when it talks about them sleeping "in the dust of the earth". That's an obvious reference to physically/bodily dead people. It's their bodies that will be resurrected when Christ returns.

 

[IndianaRob]

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour is coming and NOW IS…

Is there any doubt that the hour that NOW IS could be anything other than the crucifixtion of Christ?

 

[St. SteVen]

Sorry to bother you. I can see that I'm not welcome here.

[

 

[IndianaRob]

The context is in relation to the body. That is clear.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV): It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What is sown a natural body? What is the “it”?

Replace it with the natural body and you get “The natural body is sown a natural body”.

This isn’t complicated at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is sown a natural body? What is the “it”?

The body we have now. The body that is corruptible and mortal that will die. The dead in Christ will be resurrected at the last trumpet and their bodies will then be changed to be incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54).

Replace it with the natural body and you get “The natural body is sown a natural body”.

This isn’t complicated at all.

I agree, but you are making it complicated by acting as if Paul is talking about the soul in 1 Corinthians 15 when he is talking about the body.

 

[IndianaRob]

No, that is not what Daniel 12:2 says at all. How can you think that's referring to souls instead of bodies when it talks about them sleeping "in the dust of the earth". That's an obvious reference to physically/bodily dead people. It's their bodies that will be resurrected when Christ returns.

Some physical bodies were raised at that time but all souls were resurrected, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt.

The Bible tells us exactly who those were that rose bodily and why they were raised, they were raised to judge Israel.

Luk 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some physical bodies were raised at that time but all souls were resurrected, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt.

No, that is not true. Souls don't even die, so how could they be resurrected?

The Bible tells us exactly who those were that rose bodily and why they were raised, they were raised to judge Israel.

Luk 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

That's talking about the day of judgment which hasn't happened yet. Where do you come up with your beliefs, anyway? I can't make sense of anything that you're saying at all.

 

[WPM]

Yes that’s what Daniel 12:2 says.

What did that involve? Is that where they were judged and damned to the lake of fire?

 

[IndianaRob]

The body we have now. The body that is corruptible and mortal that will die. The dead in Christ will be resurrected at the last trumpet and their bodies will then be changed to be incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54).


I agree, but you are making it complicated by acting as if Paul is talking about the soul in 1 Corinthians 15 when he is talking about the body.

Yes the body we have now is corruptible that’s what Paul is saying. It (the soul) is sown into these corruptible bodies.

We aren’t the body, the body is just a container that our soul slips into to experience this life.

The body doesn’t need a new body it’s the soul that has to be raised up into the glorified body.

It would be like saying I’m going to get a new car for my old car…. The car doesn’t need the new car, the driver needs a new car.

This is exactly what Paul is saying.

 

[IndianaRob]

What did that involve? Is that where they were judged and damned to the lake of fire?

They went to everlasting shame and contempt whatever that might be I don’t know.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL. No one would say they are the same. That is, of course, not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that Jesus compared both the days of Noah that occurred before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers and the days of Lot that occurred before fire destroyed Sodom to the days before Christ's second coming when He will destroy all of His enemies.

Which brings up a question or two. Though Noah's flood may have been global, what happened in the days of Lot certainly wasn't. The point being, there were obviously still wicked ppl remaining on the earth in Lot's day since not everyone on the planet would have been living in the same city that was destroyed. Yet, the way you interpret Revelation 19, you apparently use Noah's flood to do that but then apparently disregard what happened in Lot's day, where it was not a global event that wiped out every wicked person on the planet.

Let's say you used the example of Lot's day instead, thus ignored the example pertaining to Noah's flood. How does that example prove that every wicked person on the planet is wiped out per what is recorded in Revelation 19?

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Noah's flood example is proving this will be a global event and that the LOT example is proving there will be survivors remaining other than the saved? How else could we square it? Noah's flood equals no survivors other than those on the ark. Lot's day only equals no survivors in the city being destroyed, yet not all cities were destroyed at the time nor was everyone on the planet living in this same city that was destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes the body we have now is corruptible that’s what Paul is saying. It (the soul) is sown into these corruptible bodies.

We aren’t the body, the body is just a container that our soul slips into to experience this life.

The body doesn’t need a new body it’s the soul that has to be raised up into the glorified body.

It would be like saying I’m going to get a new car for my old car…. The car doesn’t need the new car, the driver needs a new car.

This is exactly what Paul is saying.

I truly have no idea of what you're talking about. The body we have now will die, right? Unless Jesus comes first (1 Thess 4:14-17). You are saying we don't need a different body that won't die? Where do you come up with this stuff? When Paul says we will be changed at the last trumpet and that the dead will be raised at that time you don't think it's talking about our bodies changing from being mortal to immortal?

 

[Davidpt]

They went to everlasting shame and contempt whatever that might be I don’t know.

From what I can tell thus far, you appear to be the type that prefers using speculation over that of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour is coming and NOW IS…

Is there any doubt that the hour that NOW IS could be anything other than the crucifixtion of Christ?

If you would follow the context you would see that there are two resurrections In this passage - one spiritual and the other physical. You do not seem to grasp that.

 

[WPM]

Which brings up a question or two. Though Noah's flood may have been global, what happened in the days of Lot certainly wasn't. The point being, there were obviously still wicked ppl remaining on the earth in Lot's day since not everyone on the planet would have been living in the same city that was destroyed. Yet, the way you interpret Revelation 19, you apparently use Noah's flood to do that but then apparently disregard what happened in Lot's day, where it was not a global event that wiped out every wicked person on the planet.

Let's say you used the example of Lot's day instead, thus ignored the example pertaining to Noah's flood. How does that example prove that every wicked person on the planet is wiped out per what is recorded in Revelation 19?

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Noah's flood example is proving this will be a global event and that the LOT example is proving there will be survivors remaining other than the saved? How else could we square it? Noah's flood equals no survivors other than those on the ark. Lot's day only equals no survivors in the city being destroyed, yet not all cities were destroyed at the time nor was everyone on the planet living in this same city that was destroyed.

But Jesus does not relate the extent of the judgment in Lot's day to the world at the end. He likens the nature of the destruction at the end to the destruction of the city of Sodom. But he also shows it's all-embracing extent - that all the wicked were destroyed and all the righteous were rescued, as in Noah's day. That is it.

 

[IndianaRob]

I truly have no idea of what you're talking about. The body we have now will die, right? Unless Jesus comes first (1 Thess 4:14-17). You are saying we don't need a different body that won't die? Where do you come up with this stuff? When Paul says we will be changed at the last trumpet and that the dead will be raised at that time you don't think it's talking about our bodies changing from being mortal to immortal?

Yes the body we have now will die and we will die in our sins along with it if we haven’t accepted Christ.

If we accept Christ and our soul has been resurrected from death to eternal life then we get the heavenly body to experience heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which brings up a question or two. Though Noah's flood may have been global, what happened in the days of Lot certainly wasn't. The point being, there were obviously still wicked ppl remaining on the earth in Lot's day since not everyone on the planet would have been living in the same city that was destroyed. Yet, the way you interpret Revelation 19, you apparently use Noah's flood to do that but then apparently disregard what happened in Lot's day, where it was not a global event that wiped out every wicked person on the planet.

David, is Jesus's second coming a global event or a local event? Read Luke 21:33-36 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 in case you're not sure. It's clearly a global event, right? So, what does that tell you about which of those events we can compare Christ's second coming to in terms of the scale of it? We can compare it to what happened in Noah's day in that sense. Which is exactly what Peter did here as well:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

You can see here that Peter compared the future event that will occur at Christ's second coming to the flood in Noah's day when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished". Notice Peter said "the heavens and the earth, which are now, BY THE SAME WORD are kept in store, reserved unto fire".

So, when comparing the flood destroying all unbelievers to what will happen at His second coming, I believe Jesus was comparing the scale of what happened in the flood to what will happen at His return. When comparing what happened on the day Lot went out of Sodom to the day He will return, I believe Jesus was comparing the way in which Sodom was destroyed to the way in which the earth will be destroyed when He returns, which is by fire.

Let's say you used the example of Lot's day instead, thus ignored the example pertaining to Noah's flood. How does that example prove that every wicked person on the planet is wiped out per what is recorded in Revelation 19?

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Noah's flood example is proving this will be a global event and that the LOT example is proving there will be survivors remaining other than the saved?

No, not at all. That would be a very strange way to suggest that there will be mortal survivors because it would imply there would be MANY survivors since Sodom obviously is only a small part of the whole world. I believe the way I understand it makes a lot more sense than that.

How else could we square it?

See above. He compared the scale of the destruction at His second coming to the flood, just like Peter did, and the method of destruction by coming it to the destruction of Sodom (by fire).