The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

We don't know if God brought the animals into the near vicinity of the ark or not. But most likely, God drew the animals to the Ark. But Noah was told to bring them into the ark.

Also, Noah was to gather food for his family and the animals...

Genesis 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

It is likely that Noah got help from his family, to accomplish the tasks.

Obviously, the provisions were loaded prior to the command to load the animals.

You left out verse 12 which clarifies that verse 13 and 14 is saying that the forty days and forty night began the day that Noah and his family and animals were all safely within the ark.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

I left out verse 12 because it has absolutely nothing to do with verse 13 and 14. Verse 13 starts a new paragraph.

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


11 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


¶
12 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month the flood was upon the earth. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Then a new paragraph.

Noah, his family, and all the animals entered the ark in the same day. Not the day of the flood, the day they were told to enter the ark. That was day one.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

The Word does not say that Noah went in with animals and it came pass after one day, the flood was upon the earth. Noah entered and it came to pass after 7 days the flood was upon the earth.

Noah was sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously, the provisions were loaded prior to the command to load the animals.


I left out verse 12 because it has absolutely nothing to do with verse 13 and 14. Verse 13 starts a new paragraph.

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


11 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


¶
12 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month the flood was upon the earth. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Then a new paragraph.

Noah, his family, and all the animals entered the ark in the same day. Not the day of the flood, the day they were told to enter the ark. That was day one.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

The Word does not say that Noah went in with animals and it came pass after one day, the flood was upon the earth. Noah entered and it came to pass after 7 days the flood was upon the earth.

Noah was sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood.

You're wrong, but let's assume you were right about this for the sake of argument. Are you then claiming that the rapture will occur 6 days before Christ's second coming?

What about what Jesus said about the fire coming down on Sodom the very same day that Lot went out of Sodom. Why do you not compare that to the timing of the rapture in relation to Christ's second coming?

 

[The Light]

Completely agree. And, how convenient of him to not compare what happened with Lot to what will happen when Christ comes as Jesus Himself did. Jesus very clearly indicated that "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". And then He said "even the thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" which implies that the same day that the church is taken off of the earth, Jesus will destroy all of His enemies. Which is exactly what Paul taught in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.

It's truly unbelievable that pretribs would try to use Matthew 24:37-42 and Luke 17:26-27 to support pretrib when they clearly support post-trib and amil instead. Pretribs get the wrath of God that will come down on the day Christ returns mixed up with a 7 year period of tribulation. Nowhere did Jesus teach anything about a time of tribulation occurring after His coming. Surely, the comparisons what happened with the flood and in Sodom where all unbelievers were destroyed cannot be compared to some time period of tribulation before Christ's return.

Why do you compare the days of Noah to the days of Lot? They are not the same. When Lot left Sodom that very day destruction came. That day will be the one year Day of the Lord. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

That has nothing to do with the days of Noah when the Lord comes for His Church. Merging the two together and then using the days of Lot prove that the Church is not raptured before the tribulation is totally bad logic.

 

[IndianaRob]

Really? Where is your proof?

The main one that comes to mind is “many” in Daniel 12:2. Twisting the use of many to mean a great number rather than “many but not all”.

The context and the grammar is unmistakably many but not all.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

 

[The Light]

You're wrong, but let's assume you were right about this for the sake of argument. Are you then claiming that the rapture will occur 6 days before Christ's second coming?

What about what Jesus said about the fire coming down on Sodom the very same day that Lot went out of Sodom. Why do you not compare that to the timing of the rapture in relation to Christ's second coming?

Why do you compare the days of Noah to the days of Lot? They are not the same. When Lot left Sodom that very day destruction came. That day will be the one year Day of the Lord. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

That has nothing to do with the days of Noah when the Lord comes for His Church. Merging the two together and then using the days of Lot prove that the Church is not raptured before the tribulation is totally bad logic.

 

[WPM]

The main one that comes to mind is “many” in Daniel 12:2. Twisting the use of many to mean a great number rather than “many but not all”.

The context and the grammar is unmistakably many but not all.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

So, what is this speaking about and when?

 

[WPM]

Why do you compare the days of Noah to the days of Lot? They are not the same. When Lot left Sodom that very day destruction came. That day will be the one year Day of the Lord. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

That has nothing to do with the days of Noah when the Lord comes for His Church. Merging the two together and then using the days of Lot prove that the Church is not raptured before the tribulation is totally bad logic.

The evidence has been shown to you above yet you continue to avoid and deny the obvious. You have to, because it exposes your man-made extra-biblical teaching.

 

[WPM]

Obviously, the provisions were loaded prior to the command to load the animals.


I left out verse 12 because it has absolutely nothing to do with verse 13 and 14. Verse 13 starts a new paragraph.

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


11 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


¶
12 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month the flood was upon the earth. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Then a new paragraph.

Noah, his family, and all the animals entered the ark in the same day. Not the day of the flood, the day they were told to enter the ark. That was day one.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

The Word does not say that Noah went in with animals and it came pass after one day, the flood was upon the earth. Noah entered and it came to pass after 7 days the flood was upon the earth.

Noah was sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood.

Talking about manipulating Scripture to support your error! This is a classic Pretrib tactic.

 

[The Light]

LOL. This thread is about refuting pretrib which we have done extensively. We will not be leaving the thread that we created. LOL!

I have seen you refute nothing. All you do is sit around and claim victory when your fort is completely destroyed. You are in a small fox hole hunkered down and waving a victory flag and claiming everyone is avoiding you.

This is what you have been taught to do because your teachings do not agree with scripture.

 

[IndianaRob]

So, what is this speaking about and when?

It’s one of the most important verses in the Bible for understanding what the resurrection is and when it started.

Daniel 12:2 was fulfilled when MANY but not ALL of the saints rose bodily with Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you compare the days of Noah to the days of Lot? They are not the same.

LOL. No one would say they are the same. That is, of course, not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that Jesus compared both the days of Noah that occurred before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers and the days of Lot that occurred before fire destroyed Sodom to the days before Christ's second coming when He will destroy all of His enemies.

When Lot left Sodom that very day destruction came. That day will be the one year Day of the Lord.

What in the world are you talking about here? The day Lot left Sodom and that Sodom was destroyed happened during a 24 hour day. Where are you getting "the one year day of the Lord" from that? Your doctrine is completely lacking in logic.

All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

And you think that will take a full year to accomplish? You can't be serious.

That has nothing to do with the days of Noah when the Lord comes for His Church.

Again, what in the world are you talking about? There is no logic to anything you're saying. The days of Noah happened long ago already. Jesus was comparing the attitudes of people before the flood and before the destruction in Sodom to how people will be before His second coming. Just like in the days before the flood came and just like in the days before Sodom was destroyed, when people were eating and drinking and marrying and doing their normal things, people will be doing their normal activities before Christ comes and then suddenly they will all be destroyed on the day He comes.

Merging the two together and then using the days of Lot prove that the Church is not raptured before the tribulation is totally bad logic.

What do you mean merging the two together? You're not making any sense. It's very ironic for you to accuse me of using "totally bad logic" when there is no logic at all to be found in anything you're saying. Jesus compared the days before His second coming to BOTH the days before the flood in Noah's day AND the days before the destruction of Sodom in Lot's day. This should be obvious. It seems to me that you are trying to make the passage say what you want it to say.

And what exactly are you claiming in relation to Noah supposedly entering the ark 6 days before the flood came? What do you think that means in relation to the second coming of Christ? That the rapture will occur 6 days before His second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have seen you refute nothing. All you do is sit around and claim victory when your fort is completely destroyed. You are in a small fox hole hunkered down and waving a victory flag and claiming everyone is avoiding you.

This is what you have been taught to do because your teachings do not agree with scripture.

Your arguments are extremely weak, so how exactly how our fort been completely destroyed? Certainly not by your weak arguments. Look at what you try to say about Luke 17:26-30? It's utterly ridiculous. You butcher that passage horribly and take it completely out of context. We're supposed to be convinced by terrible arguments like the ones you make related to that passage? I don't think so.

 

[The Light]

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

You seem to have a major issue with taking the Bible literally. You're making Christ out to be a liar.

Where did Jesus say that Noah being seven days in the ark (which did not even happen) represents seven days of tribulation at the end? Nowhere! Is there anywhere that says it was seven days of tribulation for the wicked outside the ark before the flood? This exposes your faulty hermeneutics. This is where your forced type falls apart. This is theological gerrymandering.

UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK
The first thing God told Noah to do is enter the ark. Do you think he waited 7 days to do what he was told?

Genesis 7
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins.

 

[WPM]

Why do you compare the days of Noah to the days of Lot? They are not the same. When Lot left Sodom that very day destruction came. That day will be the one year Day of the Lord. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

That has nothing to do with the days of Noah when the Lord comes for His Church. Merging the two together and then using the days of Lot prove that the Church is not raptured before the tribulation is totally bad logic.

You have been shown multiple times that these judgements involve immediate and total destruction, as will happen when Jesus comes. But you choose to reject this as it negates your doctrine.

 

[WPM]

UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK
The first thing God told Noah to do is enter the ark. Do you think he waited 7 days to do what he was told?

Genesis 7
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins.

More avoidance. Address avoided evidence above. He entered the ark on the same day that the flood came.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s one of the most important verses in the Bible for understanding what the resurrection is and when it started.

Daniel 12:2 was fulfilled when MANY but not ALL of the saints rose bodily with Christ.

That does not say "MANY but not ALL". That is only your assumption. The English word "many" is translated from the Hebrew word "rab" there which does not mean "many but not all". It simply refers to a large number which may or may not refer to all of something.

Here's a couple examples where the word was used to refer to all of something rather than many, but not all of something.

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (rab) days.

Is this referring to many but not all of the days Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or to all of the days he sojourned there of which there were "many"? The latter, right? Clearly.

Genesis 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood; 32 And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no. 33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces. 34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many (rab) days.

This is referring to when Jacob thought his son Joseph had died and he then "mourned for his son many days". Is that referring to many but not all of the days that Jacob mourned or is it referring to all of the days he mourned, of which there were many? The latter, right? Clearly.

There are other examples like these where the Hebrew word "rab" did not mean many but not all as you believe is the case in Daniel 12:2, but instead refer to all of something with the number of all of something being many.

It's clear to me that Daniel 12:2 refers to the same resurrection of all of the dead that Jesus referred to here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And what about the reference to those who rise "to shame and everlasting contempt" in Daniel 12:2? Did you miss that?

 

[The Light]

LOL. No one would say they are the same. That is, of course, not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that Jesus compared both the days of Noah that occurred before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers and the days of Lot that occurred before fire destroyed Sodom to the days before Christ's second coming when He will destroy all of His enemies.

Great. And Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood, but the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

What in the world are you talking about here? The day Lot left Sodom and that Sodom was destroyed happened during a 24 hour day. Where are you getting "the one year day of the Lord" from that? Your doctrine is completely lacking in logic.

The fact that you are unable to understand does not change the truth.

Armageddon..........sudden destruction...............does not happen on the FIRST 24 hour day. What are you going to do with these 5 months pretend that they mean 24 hours, like you pretend that the 144,000 from the twelve tribes is the Church.

Revelation 9
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

And you think that will take a full year to accomplish? You can't be serious.

The wrath of God lasts one year.

Again, what in the world are you talking about? There is no logic to anything you're saying. The days of Noah happened long ago already. Jesus was comparing the attitudes of people before the flood and before the destruction in Sodom to how people will be before His second coming. Just like in the days before the flood came and just like in the days before Sodom was destroyed, when people were eating and drinking and marrying and doing their normal things, people will be doing their normal activities before Christ comes and then suddenly they will all be destroyed on the day He comes.

Jesus said they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK.

Knowing the day Noah entered the ark is probably something that we need to know. The fact that you do not understand this doesn't change the truth

What do you mean merging the two together? You're not making any sense. It's very ironic for you to accuse me of using "totally bad logic" when there is no logic at all to be found in anything you're saying. Jesus compared the days before His second coming to BOTH the days before the flood in Noah's day AND the days before the destruction of Sodom in Lot's day. This should be obvious. It seems to me that you are trying to make the passage say what you want it to say.

The fact that you are unable to comprehend there is more than one coming of the Lord doesn't change the facts.

And what exactly are you claiming in relation to Noah supposedly entering the ark 6 days before the flood came? What do you think that means in relation to the second coming of Christ? That the rapture will occur 6 days before His second coming?

Just wondering why it is so important that you deny that Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before flood? Why not just accept the truth.

 

[IndianaRob]

That does not say "MANY but not ALL". That is only your assumption. The English word "many" is translated from the Hebrew word "rab" there which does not mean "many but not all". It simply refers to a large number which may or may not refer to all of something.

Here's a couple examples where the word was used to refer to all of something rather than many, but not all of something.

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (rab) days.

Is this referring to many but not all of the days Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or to all of the days he sojourned there of which there were "many"? The latter, right? Clearly.

Genesis 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood; 32 And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no. 33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces. 34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many (rab) days.

This is referring to when Jacob thought his son Joseph had died and he then "mourned for his son many days". Is that referring to many but not all of the days that Jacob mourned or is it referring to all of the days he mourned, of which there were many? The latter, right? Clearly.

There are other examples like these where the Hebrew word "rab" did not mean many but not all as you believe is the case in Daniel 12:2, but instead refer to all of something with the number of all of something being many.

It's clear to me that Daniel 12:2 refers to the same resurrection of all of the dead that Jesus referred to here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And what about the reference to those who rise "to shame and everlasting contempt" in Daniel 12:2? Did you miss that?

If I were to say “And many of the fish that swim in the sea will be caught , some to the dinner table, and some to the taxidermist”.

Are you telling me that means I caught all the fish in the sea?

 

[Douggg]

This is not a relevant comparison to you purposely making up new definitions for words to make scripture say what you want it to say and you changing the words of Jesus to make them say what you want them to say.

When your Sunday school teacher asked you who anointed Solomon as the King of Israel, and you gave a incorrect answer, did she say to you that you are dishonest ?

 

[The Light]

More avoidance. Address avoided evidence above.

Dude. Please stop with the nonsense. You and your buddy are double teaming me. I have been making post after post trying to keep up. I work contract and am a day trader. I'm not doing much trading, and haven't even looked at the market, let alone get any contract work done.
I'm going to work. If you have a post you want me to address just repost it.

I don't avoid anything. Why would I need to? If I am wrong about something, I change what I believe. That why I changed from pre wrath rapture to two raptures.