The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

No, Matthew 24:31 is the final gathering of the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel.

Jesus was referring to what God promised to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:4-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[jeffweeder]

What is your rationale that the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 cannot happen pre-70th week (what pre-tribbers call pre-trib) ?

That would mean the Lord would come a second time before the Jews and Gentiles were even aware of the saving Gospel.

 

[Douggg]

You are being deceptive and misleading here by falsely representing what Jesus actually said.

When you were going to grade school, and the teacher asked you... "what does 2 + 2 = ". And you responded with "5". Did your teacher say - "You are being deceptive. You lie ! You are a liar ! " ?

No, your teacher did not respond that way. So stop with that sort of hateful language, whenever someone in the forum disagrees with what you think is correct. If you continue with that sort of language, I am going to start reporting you from now on, whenever I see you do that in a post.

I suggest everyone else in the forum do the same. This forum needs to be cleaned up.

What you falsely indicated that Jesus said would happen after He receives us to Himself is that He would then take us to heaven. That is not what He said, Doug. That is a lie. All He said after that is that where He is we would be also.

Jesus will be in heaven, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth. So when Jesus comes for the rapture/resurrection event, it is to take believers, those who believe so, to heaven while the great tribulation takes place.

 

[Douggg]

That would mean the Lord would come a second time before the Jews and Gentiles were even aware of the saving Gospel.

Jeff, the bible does not call Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection in 1Thessalonians4:13-18 - as coming a second time.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jeff, the bible does not call Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection in 1Thessalonians4:13-18 - as coming a second time.

This would be Jesus coming a second time,

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

 

[Douggg]

This would be Jesus coming a second time,

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

Jesus did not call His coming in that verse - coming a second time. ....but

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I think where we are disagreeing, maybe, is over the term the commonly used phrase "Second Coming". The term "Second Coming" is not in the kjv. But I think that phrase "Second Coming" is universally understood to mean Jesus's Return.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus did not call His coming in that verse - coming a second time.

Jesus said he was going to the Fathers house and would come back again to gather them to himself.
That is him saying a second time.

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:28

Amplified Bible

​

28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.


The 70th week is about dealing with sin, so that puts the 70th week in the past as he doesnt deal with sin when he comes again.


24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said he was going to the Fathers house and would come back again to gather them to himself.
That is him saying a second time.

Jeff, I think "coming back" in John 14:3 is not referring to Jesus's Second Coming.

28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.

okay, this where we are disagreeing. I don't think "second time" in that verse is referring to Jesus's Second Coming (to end the great tribulation), but for the rapture before the great tribulation takes place.

The 70th week is about dealing with sin, so that puts the 70th week in the past as he doesnt deal with sin when he comes again.

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

The 70th week is still future because the prophecy being referred to is the 2300 day time of the end actions involving the little horn person, in the Daniel 8:13-14 vision that Daniel had in his previous encounter with Gabriel.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jeff, I think "coming back" in John 14:3 is not referring to Jesus's Second Coming.

Jesus said he was leaving and coming back. That makes it his second coming lol

okay, this where we are disagreeing. I don't think "second time" in that verse is referring to Jesus's Second Coming

Enough already.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said he was leaving and coming back. That makes it his second coming lol

Enough already.

Jeff,

John 14:

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

------------------------

So where did Jesus go to prepare a place ? Heaven, right ? The way for us to go to heaven is by believing in Jesus.

The many mansions are in heaven. Jesus is not bringing mansions with Him at His Return, but saints.

Rapture to heaven where the mansions are - before the great tribulation - then, Jesus's Return with His saints.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jeff,

John 3:

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

That is not John 3.

Its the second coming. He ascends then he comes back to receive and glorify us. Once.

 

[Douggg]

That is not John 3.

Typo. I fixed it.

Its the second coming. He ascends then he comes back to receive and glorify us. Once.

Jesus is returning with His saints - not mansions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Typical heretic mocking Christ.

I forgive you brother.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus is returning with His saints - not mansions.

I began this conversation with you when you said 1thess 4 was not the second coming remember?
John 14 proves you wrong as Jesus leaves then comes back again to receive us to himself. Thats a second time. He receives us to himself in 1 Thess 4 ...same event.
He comes to raise the dead in Christ and glorify them as he does with those alive at the time. So he comes with the souls of those who have departed.
When he comes for us we will be like him, having a body like his glorious body.

Phill 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].

 

[WPM]

okay, you are amil. That's another topic.

Back to this thread's topic....

What is your rationale that the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 cannot happen pre-70th week (what pre-tribbers call pre-trib) ?

I am not asking that the rapture/resurrection must happen pre-70th week, but that it could happen pre-70th week.

1. Simply because it doesn't teach that. It is not in there. You have to force it into the sacred text.
2. The whole passage (like elsewhere) is climactic. It is the end. No one survives.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here? Where is any protracted trib period in here? Where are survivors? Nowhere!

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. We are not into eternity. There are no survivors. You are unable to show survivors here.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That is not the Church in Rev 12. Those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman which is the twelve tribes across the earth.


Those are 144,000 from the 12 tribes in heaven. These events in Rev 13 and 14 take place in the 1st 6 seals.



This is the gathering from heaven and earth which is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the 1-year Day of the Lord, wrath of God

The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe. They are different views with different info of the same timeframe..............The Day of the Lord.

Amils need their own thread

They are unreachable.
I may as well talk to a telephone pole as try to address them.

 

[WPM]

No, Matthew 24:31 is the final gathering of the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel.

Jesus was referring to what God promised to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:4-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Not so! Quite the opposite. God's chosen people (His elect) are His redeemed children - those alone who have placed their faith and trust in Christ. This is basic 101 NT Christianity.

Israel rejected and rejects Christ. Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a New Testament fact. There is no special favor for ethnic Christ-rejecting apostate Israel since the cross. Quite the opposite. They are under the wrath of God! The kingdom has been removed from them. God has cursed the natural Israeli fig tree and terminated the ancient old covenant Israeli theocracy. But true Israel (Christ-accepting Israel - God's true elect), the faithful remnant, have been expanded to embrace believers in all nations today. God now works through this spiritual Israeli organism to manifest His name throughout the earth. These are the true circumcision. These are the children if Abraham. These are they that reside in true Zion.

Natural Israel and natural Jews can embrace Christ at any time and be grafted into the good olive tree and be at one with fellow Christians. This is the household of faith. This is the only Israel that carries God's favor.

Jews are either saved or lost. Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

 

[WPM]

Amils need their own thread

They are unreachable.
I may as well talk to a telephone pole as try to address them.

How about showing us one single passage in the whole of Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by tribulation period, followed by a third coming of Christ? Amils have presented numerous to prove their paradigm.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Talk about twisting Scripture to fit your error. This is what the cults do.

You have avoided all my arguments (once again) and just repeated the party line what you have been taught.

Rev 19 has the church in heaven along with the marriage supper....AHEM... DURING THE TRIB
TL challenged you concerning Rev 19
You were UNABLE to respond.
Instead you respond with non applicable off topic generalities.( As you showed us in your quote above)
You just exposed what you are about.

 

[rebuilder 454]

How about showing us one single passage in the whole of Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by tribulation period, followed by a third coming of Christ? Amils have presented numerous to prove their paradigm.

One single passage.?
I got several.
Here is one, matt24:
"38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

Before the flood/ trib, everyday life. Normal life.
Jesus comes at the start of the flood
One taken/ one left..at the start (AHEM JESUS'S setting is BEFORE the flood)
WATCH BEFORE THE FLOOD

ALL PRETRIB.
VIVIDLY PRETRIB.
Half the church taken pretrib.
Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!!!!